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  1. #886
    Extraordinary Member Drako's Avatar
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    Everybody knew that Grayson was going to be temporary, just like Dickbats was back then and Ric is now. And people forget that the main writers of the book left to do Rebirth stuff?

  2. #887
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Everybody knew that Grayson was going to be temporary, just like Dickbats was back then and Ric is now. And people forget that the main writers of the book left to do Rebirth stuff?
    Everyone knows it was temporary, but it wasn't meant to be as short as it was.

    And one of the writers staying on to do Rebirth is small comfort when he was forced to use Bludhaven, which he was upfront about not liking, and it negatively impacted some of his stories.

  3. #888
    Extraordinary Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Everyone knows it was temporary, but it wasn't meant to be as short as it was.

    And one of the writers staying on to do Rebirth is small comfort when he was forced to use Bludhaven, which he was upfront about not liking, and it negatively impacted some of his stories.
    I don't think it was that short. Dick was Batman for 2 years and he was Grayson for the same amount of time.

    Imagine him being Ric for two whole years.

  4. #889
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    I don't think it was that short. Dick was Batman for 2 years and he was Grayson for the same amount of time.

    Imagine him being Ric for two whole years.
    But it was cut short. Rebirth moved Seeley and King off the book before they were ready. They had like 50 issues or something planned.

    Whether or not you think it was long enough from our perspective is another matter, but the creators weren't done and what has come afterward hasn't been worth losing it even before we got to Ric.

  5. #890
    Extraordinary Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    But it was cut short. Rebirth moved Seeley and King off the book before they were ready. They had like 50 issues or something planned.

    Whether or not you think it was long enough from our perspective is another matter, but the creators weren't done and what has come afterward hasn't been worth losing it even before we got to Ric.
    Yeah and Dick supposed to going back to being Nightwing after Bruce came back in "Return of Bruce Wayne," but he was well liked as Batman so DC decided to let him be for one more year.

    Sometimes the plan changes for better or worse.

    I loved Grayson too and i'll never argue against it's greatness, but i just don't like this ideia that people throw around here that if you like him as Nightwing you're somehow a lesser fan.

  6. #891
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Yeah and Dick supposed to going back to being Nightwing after Bruce came back in "Return of Bruce Wayne," but he was well liked as Batman so DC decided to let him be for one more year.

    Sometimes the plan changes for better or worse.

    I loved Grayson too and i'll never argue against it's greatness, but i just don't like this ideia that people throw around here that if you like him as Nightwing you're somehow a lesser fan.
    I wouldn't say anyone's a lesser fan for liking him as Nightwing in general, but the way that they returned him to Nightwing hasn't been good for the character. It was a decision that was nostalgia driven (for the Dixon days) and once Seeley left, they had no direction, and it's gradually lead to this.

    Marrying the Nightwing identity to Agent 37 style stories could have been great. "Better than Batman" and "Nightwing Must Die" are cited as Seeley's best arcs for a reason, but DC editorial prevented that from being the norm because who knows why. Nightwing doesn't have to be a slave to mediocre stories, but he ends up being one all the same. I think the issue people have is that the last time he had a direction he wasn't Nightwing, and we lost it in favor of directionless Nightwing.

  7. #892
    Extraordinary Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I wouldn't say anyone's a lesser fan for liking him as Nightwing in general, but the way that they returned him to Nightwing hasn't been good for the character. It was a decision that was nostalgia driven (for the Dixon days) and once Seeley left, they had no direction, and it's gradually lead to this.

    Marrying the Nightwing identity to Agent 37 style stories could have been great. "Better than Batman" and "Nightwing Must Die" are cited as Seeley's best arcs for a reason, but DC editorial prevented that from being the norm because who knows why. Nightwing doesn't have to be a slave to mediocre stories, but he ends up being one all the same. I think the issue people have is that the last time he had a direction he wasn't Nightwing, and we lost it in favor of directionless Nightwing.
    I agree. Let's hope DC can see this as well.
    Young Justice Nightwing it's the perfect example of how they can do the character and appeal to all of his types of fans.

  8. #893
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I am very curious about the Robin origin that Tynion is writing for Detective Comics #1000.

    Will he have him take it in his alien suit?
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  9. #894

  10. #895
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    New 52 was tough because the character regressed so much. He went from being Batman and leading the JL while doing all these cool things throughout the DCU to being isolated in his own book and could only interact with Bruce or Barbara. That was it. He had zero influence or impact on anything and he is still kind of suffering from the effects of that today. He had no friends (most didn't exist anymore), his history was in shambles and a lot of it was erased, and he wasn't given anything to make up for all these losses. So he was operating from a massive negative without anything to makeup for it. Then his stories were so overly dark and depressing. It was a constant stream of how miserable they could make him and how much they could tear him down over and over. Then later we learned that the upper management wanted the New 52 books (at least in the Batman line) to be overly dark and gritty.

    All that being said the Ric Grayson situation now is the worst period in the character's history, in my opinion. From all the management problems, the pure lack of care involved from everyone, and the constant creator turnover is just insanely bad. You throw in just how awful Abnett's Titans run was and his dreadful use of the character (I'd argue that Abnett had one of the worst voices for Dick ever) and this is by far the worst time period in the character's history. I'm not sure anything really comes close.
    Agreed.
    ...

  11. #896
    Mighty Member nightbird's Avatar
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    Nightwing



    Dick, Kory and Mari

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bt4qmHvh0Am/

  12. #897

  13. #898
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    I don’t think Grayson was designed to be temporary.ibelieve DC hoped it would catch on.

  14. #899
    Mighty Member nightbird's Avatar
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    Valentine’s Day Nightwing by Kris Anka

    https://twitter.com/kristaferanka/st...676828160?s=20

    Lol

  15. #900
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Nightwing fans are Dick Grayson fans, I didn't know there was some distinction.

    Grayson was only ever going to be a temporary thing. The series is gone and shouldn't come back, the aspects and storylines should still be around. I have been saying this for years. It was Seeley that made that run great, just like he did when Dick was back in the costume. His run in Nightwing I think felt just as good as Grayson. Even more-so because it amplified Grayson's importance to Dick's new overall story. It's been the only clear chapter of his new continuity. Plus with the New 52 Nightwing run being the only recent thing to compare to, no wonder it was so beloved.

    Execution of ideas is the only thing that matters at the end of the day. You can have a great idea (Grayson) or terrible idea (New 52 Nightwing) but if done competently then you can have something decent on your hands. Grayson was great because it had a great writer and artist, the idea of being a spy rather than Nightwing doesn't make it better or the suit with or without finger stripes or Bludhaven or whatever aspect of his mythos you have an issue with isn't the problem. It's the execution of those aspects.
    I didn't know there was a distinction either until Grayson happened. But apparently some are only down for Dick Grayson when he's dressed a certain way.

    I don't know how long what was supposed to last but I'm pretty sure the pettiness and constant complaints did affect Grayson. I know some fan Boycotted the title before it came out because of the change of suit. I saw the people going on about the book being sexist online. All that affects a book.

    There are some fans who thing's like the suit, the love interest will be a deal breaker. Many comments and threads on this very site support it. Heck even when Nightwing came back some were still complaining when Seeley said about some of the story playing out outside Bludhaven.

    We have discussions about Dick's potential and how DC doesn't want to push Dick but the reality is that a lot of it is down to fans who are unwilling to let the character evolve.

    Nightwing as a spy already has the added benefit of being a role different from Batman. I don't know whether he couldn't be a Spy forever but he could have been one longer and Seeley could have been allowed to have a mix of both. Bringing elements of Grayson into Nightwing.
    Last edited by dietrich; 02-16-2019 at 01:02 PM.

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