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  1. #4036
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Shooting him in the head was the least of Ric's issues. Its everything that came after. Which King doesn't seem to be a fan of anymore then anyone else.
    Oh, I got no issue with King wanting to shoot Dick. The way DC has set the rules, Dick is first and foremost part of the Bat books, and his solo stuff comes in a distant second. King was writing Batman, so his priority was Bruce (as it should be) and he wanted to put Bruce through the wringer. Taking one of Bruce's most important (and capable) supporting characters off the board is a viable plot choice (we can debate whether it's a "good" one, but it's been a viable tool in fiction since fiction was invented). So I don't blame King for wanting to do it. It's DC who treat Dick like a supporting character, King's just doing his job, using the structure his bosses have given him.

    And as I understand it King just wanted Dick off the board so Bruce couldn't lean on him; he didn't pitch in any real ideas for what happened to Dick afterwards (he wasn't writing Nightwing, so that's fine, that wasn't his job). Getting Dick out of Gotham could've been accomplished in a billion ways, and it's not like a head wound is enough to keep a hero out of the action if the writer wants it to play that way (see body-cast-Batman in Snyder's JL, etc). So I blame DC for giving the green light to Ric. I don't know who exactly is responsible for agreeing to this train wreck, so I put blame on whoever's the main editor of the Bat office (I forget the name) and the higher level administrators like Didio and Lee, because in business sh*t should flow uphill (as should praise).

    What I meant when I said I dont want "new" King is that I just haven't enjoyed Dick's appearances in King's Batman as much as I enjoyed Grayson. I think Grayson had a level of character nuance and depth that we haven't seen from King since. And maybe that's just King not putting as much work into a supporting character or maybe that deeper understanding was all Seely (which a lot of people believe), I don't know. But if King is gonna write Dick, then I want his best effort and we've seen what that looks like (with help, yes, but still).
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  2. #4037
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    I'm guessing the grayson thing has to just be for a annual or something rgiht? Bendis has teased Mikel Janin joining his legion run for a few issues and I think jurgens is going to be on nightwing for a while.

  3. #4038
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Has anything changed with Dick? I've barely been paying attention to DC for the past few months, hard to post when nothing has gotten better.
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  4. #4039
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Has anything changed with Dick? I've barely been paying attention to DC for the past few months, hard to post when nothing has gotten better.
    He has 2x the memory loss now

  5. #4040
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, he's brainwashed to think that he's always a Talon and as a Talon he killed Bruce Wayne during Court of Owls as Cobb's backup... which doesn't really make sense since even in Bludhaven he can just see the news and Bruce is alive? Or I misread that part of the spoilers? Whatever. I don't care. They already used the wrong continuity for how Dick's parent's died I'm not gonna care about that part.

  6. #4041
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    starting with the "ric" business and with the upcoming 5G rumors flying around and seeming to have some semblance of credibility, I have lost almost all interest in DC and even worse any faith that they will do right by their characters and their readers. I haven't bought Nightwing in I can't remember how long, but may pick up the King/Janin issue if it recalls back to Grayson.

  7. #4042
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Bruce, Dick and Selina




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  8. #4043
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, I got no issue with King wanting to shoot Dick. The way DC has set the rules, Dick is first and foremost part of the Bat books, and his solo stuff comes in a distant second. King was writing Batman, so his priority was Bruce (as it should be) and he wanted to put Bruce through the wringer. Taking one of Bruce's most important (and capable) supporting characters off the board is a viable plot choice (we can debate whether it's a "good" one, but it's been a viable tool in fiction since fiction was invented). So I don't blame King for wanting to do it. It's DC who treat Dick like a supporting character, King's just doing his job, using the structure his bosses have given him.

    And as I understand it King just wanted Dick off the board so Bruce couldn't lean on him; he didn't pitch in any real ideas for what happened to Dick afterwards (he wasn't writing Nightwing, so that's fine, that wasn't his job). Getting Dick out of Gotham could've been accomplished in a billion ways, and it's not like a head wound is enough to keep a hero out of the action if the writer wants it to play that way (see body-cast-Batman in Snyder's JL, etc). So I blame DC for giving the green light to Ric. I don't know who exactly is responsible for agreeing to this train wreck, so I put blame on whoever's the main editor of the Bat office (I forget the name) and the higher level administrators like Didio and Lee, because in business sh*t should flow uphill (as should praise).

    What I meant when I said I dont want "new" King is that I just haven't enjoyed Dick's appearances in King's Batman as much as I enjoyed Grayson. I think Grayson had a level of character nuance and depth that we haven't seen from King since. And maybe that's just King not putting as much work into a supporting character or maybe that deeper understanding was all Seely (which a lot of people believe), I don't know. But if King is gonna write Dick, then I want his best effort and we've seen what that looks like (with help, yes, but still).
    I blame King for Ric. King's run never set up Dick being that important to Bruce. Contrary to that King had batman refer to the Robins as soliders and had Alfred claim that in all the years that Dick has been with Bruce He never had any happiness. He downplayed Dick's role on the one hand yet used him for angst because he knows that in reality the important role that Dick Grayson plays in the Batman story.

    He knew that in the narrative and in the readers mind we associate important to Batman to Dick and Alfred. Those are the ones at the heart of the mythos so he sacrificed them for shock.

    A writer that can make a claim as bold as Bruce hasn't smiled since he was 10 till the day he was supposed to marry Selina. A writer that brought back Clayface without explanation and who has hand waved so many gaping plot holes in his run didn't have to derail a character that he claims to care for just to advance another's story.

    The carelessness and ease with which he derailed Nightwing is worrying. Not to mention that he cares so little for what makes sense that he has Ti m Drake somehow make it back [take a break from YJ] when the character is lost in the Multiverse trying to find his way home.

    If in the runup to the KGB shooting Dick had been shown to be important to Batman I might have been able to easier swallow/buy the shooting of such an important support system.

    IIt wasn't necessary. Why not shoot Selina?

    The farce over the artist for the proposal issue shows how much power King has behind the scenes. He could have fought for Dick knowing that it was his story that derailed the character but he didn't.
    Last edited by CPSparkles; 12-03-2019 at 01:58 PM.

  9. #4044
    Spectacular Member Schumiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Taking a character you weren't writing and completely derailing their own story and book for some shock value in another title is all on King, especially since he had no clear plan with how he wanted it all to go afterwards. That kind of stuff should never be looked over regardless of what came after. Crap like that is what Dick's character has been plagued with since the New 52. Constantly being jerked around with no consistent direction.

    If I am a writer and given freedom to do whatever I want, chances are I would do it. King didn't mean for the headshot to be permanent, he just needed to render a big emotional blow to the character he was writing and this was one of the ways. He even meant for it to be fixed immediately if DC wanted. DC didn't want it. DC made the decision to allow a writer to walk all over another writer who had plans for the character and book he was writing for, because for them King is their special snowflake and can do anything he wants. Then they allowed Ric to last this long because a writer who had absolute zero interest in writing the story insisted it would be a good story and route for the character. All of it was extremely disrespectful and says a lot about how Dc has zero idea about what to do with Nightwing and how little value they give him. I blame DC for it though. If you let your kids play with something they shouldn't and they end up breaking it, you as the parent are the real one to blame, after all.

    Having said all that, King's Batman is enough for me to want him stay the hell away from Nightwing at this point. If I could, I would also save Batman from him. My impression is King in general doesn't have respect for the characters he is writing and their history etc, he just wants to do grand changes in hopes he will leave a mark for a while and free reign to write his fanfiction romance, all the while trying to sound deep so his work will be assumed to be complex and having some kind of literary value that is above the level of a comic book lol. I could care less for that kind of writing approach. We need a writer that knows Nightwing and values him and is actually enthusiastic about writing for the character because they love the character. And we need DC to leave that person be to write their stories.

  10. #4045
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    Was Dick getting shot affecting Bruce ever brought up again after Bruce broke Kgbeast's neck? In my memory he was back to only sobbing about Bane and Selina pretty quickly. And since "bringing Batman to his lowest" turned out to be bullshit anyway, did he really need to shoot Dick?

    If only Selina matters and the Robins are only soldiers, why should readers care that Dick got shot, Bruce punched Tim and Damian got kidnapped? How are those moments supposed to feel important if they don't mean anything to Bruce? Yeah, punching Tim turned out to be part of a plan, but not mentioning it for 10 issues and then handwaving it away was pretty underwhelming. Bruce risking Damian's life for his plan to work had close to no emotional impact either, because Bruce didn't seem to care one bit. Killing Alfred felt hollow, because he didn't have an important role in King's run.
    The only reasons those moments had any impact was because they showed how terrible King's run had become, not because they were well written or meaningful.

  11. #4046
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    See im not interested in a super fan writer that kisses the characters ass. IMO Nightwing needs a writer with contemporary fresh ideas and a relevant voice. Personally my pick is Priest cause he has a harsh and honest view on the character. Im not saying that Kings the guys, but ill still take King over these out of touch old guys like Lobdell and Jurgans who just lazily go through the motions with tired ideas and factory driven techniques. Beggars can't be choosers here. The character has literally nothing going for him right now in comics. So if King and Janin are doing something Grayson, ill take it.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 12-03-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  12. #4047
    Spectacular Member Schumiac's Avatar
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    Doesn't need to be a superfan who kisses the characters ass, not what I meant at all. But does need to be someone who has an actual interest in the character and knowledge of him and isn't there just for the paycheck and so phoning it in.

  13. #4048
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    Was Dick getting shot affecting Bruce ever brought up again after Bruce broke Kgbeast's neck? In my memory he was back to only sobbing about Bane and Selina pretty quickly. And since "bringing Batman to his lowest" turned out to be bullshit anyway, did he really need to shoot Dick?

    If only Selina matters and the Robins are only soldiers, why should readers care that Dick got shot, Bruce punched Tim and Damian got kidnapped? How are those moments supposed to feel important if they don't mean anything to Bruce? Yeah, punching Tim turned out to be part of a plan, but not mentioning it for 10 issues and then handwaving it away was pretty underwhelming. Bruce risking Damian's life for his plan to work had close to no emotional impact either, because Bruce didn't seem to care one bit. Killing Alfred felt hollow, because he didn't have an important role in King's run.
    The only reasons those moments had any impact was because they showed how terrible King's run had become, not because they were well written or meaningful.
    Despite starting the chain of events that lead to it, King doesn't want to touch Ric with a 10ft pole just like every other writer. Which is frusting cause King should bare some responsibility. At the same time though i don't think King has as much power as some of you are making it seem. If rumors are to be believed even, Harras isn't a fan while at the same time Lobdell is his buddy.

  14. #4049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Despite starting the chain of events that lead to it, King doesn't want to touch Ric with a 10ft pole just like every other writer. Which is frusting cause King should bare some responsibility. At the same time though i don't think King has as much power as some of you are making it seem. If rumors are to be believed even, Harras isn't a fan while at the same time Lobdell is his buddy.
    He had enough power to get his own editor fired and to derail the plans for the Nightwing and Titans book by having Dick shot. And instead of leaving Batman for good because reception and sales after the wedding debacle didn't recover he still gets to write his Batman/Catwoman book. Harras actually looking at his run and not liking it seems to be a rather recent developement. Editorial has been asleep at the wheel since mid 2018, I wouldn't be suprised if no one paid much attention to what the big writers were doing. Snyder, King and Bendis all did their own thing for months and only now editorial tries to put some things back in order again. I don't think King is allmighty at DC, but if he had pushed to have Dick back as Nightwing for his run he would have gotten him. But Dick is just a prop in this run, as are all the other Robins, and so he didn't do anything.

  15. #4050

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    I can't see how "just doing his job" is any excuse for King. The Nightwing thing isn't the one spot on an otherwise impeccable record of good stewardship and sound common sense. King appears unapologetically to hold to the opinion that his glorious vision trumps all other concerns.

    I will agree with everyone who's said that the editors are a pack of fools, however.

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