Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[oasis1313]

June solicits. Ric is still here, still wearing a soot mask. I feel like Bane is trying to break me, too.

[Schumiac]

June solicits. Ric is still here, still wearing a soot mask. I feel like Bane is trying to break me, too.

King is breaking us all...

I do agree that he didn't give the aftermath of what would happen to Dick and his readers much thought. He knew he wanted Dick sidelined, he knew how he wanted to do it, he did it. And left the mess to be someone else's problem as he goes on his merry way with his own story.

[OWL45]

So Dick really is not going to be part of the Leviathan story? It’s really Unbelievable he is going to be left out.

[Badou]

The idea was, Catwoman dealt a huge blow and Dick could help Bruce pick up the pieces (an entire issue was spent to show that), and then Bane made sure he couldn't by having him taken out too. So taking Dick out was about taking Bruce's support system out which is why IMO the psychological nonsense part of King's story wouldn't work if Dick is around and he is now having his breakdown... As Bruce is getting through the Nightmates stuff Dick is mentioned, like when facing Pyg or when having the "married to Catwoman and than she is assasinated" delusions. So it is also still there at the back of his mind. There is no denying Bruce's manpain is huge though and it seems like now he is starting to backtrack and noticing something was off with how Catwoman ended things with him or something. I half hope he starts to realize ALL of it was Bane's master plan, but honestly with King, hard to tell... There is also the fact that, after Dick got shot he went super-violent and raging without a thought, so Gordon doesn't really trust him anymore like before, and that may end up playing into the upcoming story...

Dick being taken out does mean he can't replace Batman, yes, but then if he wasn't taken out, he would already be at Gotham trying to help Batman stop Bane. That's the point. He can't be allowed to be there while it is happening, not as an ally doing actual fighting and not as emotional support. It is not like Dick would wait on the side, till Bane is completely done with Bruce and has destroyed him, and then show up in Gotham, take over the mantle, stop Bane first thing (where Bruce has failed spectacularly) and then go on being Gotham's hero as Bruce is off licking his wounds and mending... Such a story was never going to be written... The story is Bane is taking Bruce down meticulously by breaking his heart, his spirit, his mind and then finally will break him physically too and leave him all shattered. Can't have that with Dick right by his side.

I understand that was King's intention, but I don't think it works. This is where it falls apart. If Dick was playing a large role in King's Batman story similar to the role Catwoman is playing then it works better. It would be him building up to this huge turning point where Dick gets shot and it sets Bruce down on this spiral of destruction just like Bane wants, similar to the Catwoman wedding issue, but we didn't get that. Dick came in for one issue to crack some jokes and then gets shot in the head and him, his outcome, and situation are promptly pushed out of the way unlike a Catwoman, or even a Gotham Girl, whose situation King is constantly going back to and building on. Dick didn't get any of that. It was mostly a blip in this 100+ issue run that King is trying to justify it by being this hugely important factor in his Batman story, but he didn't write it in any way where it would feel like that. It just feels glossed over and ruined the Nightwing book in the process.

Also you didn't need to shoot Dick in the head for any of this to happen. That is a big part I have an problem with. Dick was playing no role in King's Batman story. You could have just not used Dick or have Dick go do something else where he couldn't be there where you didn't **** up the Nightwing book in the process. We just saw this happen with Snyder's Batman where Dick was on a mission in Spyral and couldn't be in Gotham when Bruce got his amnesia and a new Batman in Gordon stepped into the role. Gotham was in huge trouble but Dick didn't rush back to help and missed the whole situation. Instead of King shooting Dick in the head you could have just had the Nightwing team come up with its own story for why Dick couldn't be there instead of dealing with this mess King threw in their lap, but then King couldn't have had his shocking panel of Dick getting shot, which is all he wanted with Dick being taken off the table.

King specifically stated that his original plan was to have Duke take over as Batman and that he didn't want to do the DickBats thing again because it has been done before. So that right there shows his intention for using Dick in his story. It wasn't as much to play this big role in King's 100 issue epic, but to be disposed of so he could write someone else in the role of Batman. There is probably also an ego thing involved in that King wanted HIS Batman story to be the defining set piece and wouldn't want a story from Nightwing's own book that would have served as a reason for Dick being unable to help to bleed into his Batman epic.

[Badou]

So Dick really is not going to be part of the Leviathan story? It’s really Unbelievable he is going to be left out.

Of course not. Dick being involved in it would make too much sense given his time in Spyral and dealing with Talia and Leviathan back in Batman INC. Dick is only allowed to be in forgettable or frustrating Bludhaven stories or being the punchbag in Titans. Clearly this Ric story is just too important to stop for something like being used in a Leviathan Event for Superman...

Kidding aside I don't think Bendis is all that interested in Dick's character. Obviously he probably couldn't use the character because Dick is in forced isolation while Ric is going on until King's Batman story allows for it to end, but I don't get the feeling Bendis would have used Dick in his Superman event even if the Ric thing wasn't going on.

[oasis1313]

Of course not. Dick being involved in it would make too much sense given his time in Spyral and dealing with Talia and Leviathan back in Batman INC. Dick is only allowed to be in forgettable or frustrating Bludhaven stories or being the punchbag in Titans. Clearly this Ric story is just too important to stop for something like being used in a Leviathan Event for Superman...

Kidding aside I don't think Bendis is all that interested in Dick's character. Obviously he probably couldn't use the character because Dick is in forced isolation while Ric is going on until King's Batman story allows for it to end, but I don't get the feeling Bendis would have used Dick in his Superman event even if the Ric thing wasn't going on.

If Dick had to be persona non grata, why not just send him off to space instead of Azrael? Could have had some nice Dick-n-Kory tension to spice up the book. In fact, Dick's "home team" with Amanda Waller was a wash-out. Then 'Beest would be welcome to shoot Timmy Wimmy Dreck, the Precious One, and that would have REALLY set ol' Bats off his gourd. King has NO gratitude toward the character who put him on the map. IMHO, Bendis is a big Tim fanboy and has no use for anything Dickish.

[Godlike13]

The Bat office will never let him go. He’s their toilet, but at the same time they don’t have many characters not Batman that can carry 50+ issues in this market. And since their higher ups don’t really care about the character any more then they do they can put in half effort, be lazy, and not give a **** if what they are producing is the worst thing DC is putting on the selves. The professional integrity displayed by the editors and creators on this book right now makes my stomach hurt. Part of me is surprised someone didn’t step in after they tried to put Esquivel on the book right after he was outed, but it seems there is a lot going on with DC in background right now.

[Schumiac]

King (and Bane) wanted the emotinal blow to Bruce where his worst nightmares come true as a member of his family is shot right in front of his eyes... It is why in his nightmares when Selina is assasinated it is "just like Dick". Bruce keeps failing to protect his family members, they keep dying on him. In reality and in his nightmares. All this time he has trained, all the gadgets he invested on, he pushes himself to his limits, devotes his entire life to protect Gotham, and he still can't even protect those closest to him. All these years he is still where he was, as an 8 years old, standing helplessly as people he cares for the most are shot and are dying and leaving him behind... He is constantly denied happiness, if they don't leave him, then they die on him, and he is bound to be forever alone. That emotional turmoil is what is breaking him down, why he is so distraught and so doesn't have his act together. From the wedding to the shooting, it has all piled up.

That is why a "Dick is too preoccupied right now" story wouldn't work the same way for King's story.

King basically abused Dick for his own story and discarded him after getting what he needed from him. But what he got from him was important to the story. I am not happy with what he has done and what we have to suffer as a result, but I understand why it works for his story. The aftermath (for Dick) wasn't his job, he is too busy spending issue after issue delving into Bruce's psyche after all, in his "epic" Knightfall-clone story that he dreams will be hailed as the most sensational and ingenious thing ever... (rolling my eyes so hard they may just fall out) Btw, King is doing nothing other than the "Bruce's psyche" stuff, crazy Gotham Girl was something Williamson brought in. King did the "raging out for blood Batman beating KGBeast and Bane to a pulp / punching Gordon" as the immediate aftermath of Dick's assasination on Bruce's part and is now doing the "lost in his own mind"/breaking down Batman...
.
Aftermath of the shooting for Dick, as a character, was a mess for Bat-office and Nightwing writers to deal with and they obviously dropped the ball with it. It was an ugly mess they were given and no one should have to clean up someone else's mess but what was done was done and they had to deal with it. And they failed. They could try to make the best out of an amnesiac story, maybe have a good story written around it as Dick "refinds" himself, highlighting all the things intrinsic to the character that make him great and so endurable... But no. Instead we got one where he constantly talks about how stupid and crazy and meaningless who he was and what he did was, and is a guest in his own solo series as other characters named Nightwing take over.

So basically, I understand why King did what he did for his own ends (even if not happy with it), I just don't understand and accept why Bat-office and Nightwing writers have absolutely zero interest in the character and writing something semi-decent for him. They are not even trying....

[Godlike13]

Do you know what else is sad. This dog **** they are producing with hobo Ric and the We Wanna Be Nightwings is probably gonna last longer that what they ripped it off from did. Seriously everybody involved on this book right now are just the worst. Ripping off We Are Robin of all things. The people on the book are beyond lazy.

[Badou]

King (and Bane) wanted the emotinal blow to Bruce where his worst nightmares come true as a member of his family is shot right in front of his eyes... It is why in his nightmares when Selina is assasinated it is "just like Dick". Bruce keeps failing to protect his family members, they keep dying on him. In reality and in his nightmares. All this time he has trained, all the gadgets he invested on, he pushes himself to his limits, devotes his entire life to protect Gotham, and he still can't even protect those closest to him. All these years he is still where he was, as an 8 years old, standing helplessly as people he cares for the most are shot and are dying and leaving him behind... He is constantly denied happiness, if they don't leave him, then they die on him, and he is bound to be forever alone. That emotional turmoil is what is breaking him down, why he is so distraught and so doesn't have his act together. From the wedding to the shooting, it has all piled up.

That is why a "Dick is too preoccupied right now" story wouldn't work the same way for King's story.

King basically abused Dick for his own story and discarded him after getting what he needed from him. But what he got from him was important to the story. I am not happy with what he has done and what we have to suffer as a result, but I understand why it works for his story. The aftermath (for Dick) wasn't his job, he is too busy spending issue after issue delving into Bruce's psyche after all, in his "epic" Knightfall-clone story that he dreams will be hailed as the most sensational and ingenious thing ever... (rolling my eyes so hard they may just fall out) Btw, King is doing nothing other than the "Bruce's psyche" stuff, crazy Gotham Girl was something Williamson brought in. King did the "raging out for blood Batman beating KGBeast and Bane to a pulp / punching Gordon" as the immediate aftermath of Dick's assasination on Bruce's part and is now doing the "lost in his own mind"/breaking down Batman...
.
Aftermath of the shooting for Dick, as a character, was a mess for Bat-office and Nightwing writers to deal with and they obviously dropped the ball with it. It was an ugly mess they were given and no one should have to clean up someone else's mess but what was done was done and they had to deal with it. And they failed. They could try to make the best out of an amnesiac story, maybe have a good story written around it as Dick "refinds" himself, highlighting all the things intrinsic to the character that make him great and so endurable... But no. Instead we got one where he constantly talks about how stupid and crazy and meaningless who he was and what he did was, and is a guest in his own solo series as other characters named Nightwing take over.

So basically, I understand why King did what he did for his own ends (even if not happy with it), I just don't understand and accept why Bat-office and Nightwing writers have absolutely zero interest in the character and writing something semi-decent for him. They are not even trying....

I just don't think that reason works because King said he would have hand waved Dick getting shot with a Zatanna spell if editorial didn't want to deal with it, but regardless King was going to shoot Dick in the head no matter what they said. So Dick could have been fixed and back to normal in less than 24 hours but King wouldn't have changed anything he did with his story, completely defeating Bruce going on his downward spiral, because he didn't care about it after that and would have ignored anything with it regardless.

As for Gotham Girl, King isn't finished with her because you have to go back to the start of King's run where he jumped to the future where it is heavily implied that Gotham Girl "killed" Bruce or something along those lines where Bruce died. She was narrating about him being dead or gone in the future where she was married or with Duke too. Then you have her, as well as Catwoman, being very involved in Bane's plan and King has been trying to slowly set it up since the start of his run, but he did none of that with Dick. There was no set up or build up with Dick in his story and it just feels so minor in comparison to me.

I mean Damian is Bruce's son and he has been ignored in King's Batman story pretty much because other writers have taken the character and moved him away from Batman. No reason why Nightwing's writers couldn't have done the same if they just wanted to get Dick away from Bruce.

[Schumiac]

I just don't think that reason works because King said he would have hand waved Dick getting shot with a Zatanna spell if editorial didn't want to deal with it, but regardless King was going to shoot Dick in the head no matter what they said. So Dick could have been fixed and back to normal in less than 24 hours but King wouldn't have changed anything he did with his story, completely defeating Bruce going on his downward spiral, because he didn't care about it after that and would have ignored anything with it regardless.

As for Gotham Girl, King isn't finished with her because you have to go back to the start of King's run where he jumped to the future where it is heavily implied that Gotham Girl "killed" Bruce or something along those lines where Bruce died. She was narrating about him being dead or gone in the future where she was married or with Duke too. Then you have her, as well as Catwoman, being very involved in Bane's plan and King has been trying to slowly set it up since the start of his run, but he did none of that with Dick. There was no set up or build up with Dick in his story and it just feels so minor in comparison to me.

I mean Damian is Bruce's son and he has been ignored in King's Batman story pretty much because other writers have taken the character and moved him away from Batman. No reason why Nightwing's writers couldn't have done the same if they just wanted to get Dick away from Bruce.

Yeah i am calling bs on what King said about Zatanna fixing Dick. he knew it wasnt going to happen. his story needs it to not happen. he just tries to save himself from the backlash of it all. If Dick is fixed, he would be by Bruce to support him emotionally and also as an ally in the field. King wants Bruce as isolated and crazy as possible.It is also why Damian is nowhere to be seen, with the explanation being he and Batman are not on best of terms so he is off doing his own thing with TT, not really aware of what is going on with Daddy. Dick is another matter. His relationship is different. He is more empathical, he is older, more mature and he and Bruce have gone through a lot. He knows when Bruce needs help, and he wont just take offence and leave when Bruce does his usual shutting people out/dont need or want you here routine. "i am not talking to you" is not really an option for him to take.


I know Gotham Girl isnt finished as she is part of the whole Batman breaking/ killing group. I am saying King hasnt done anything with her recently himself as he is too focused on his Bruce's psyche stories. Everyone and everything else is ignored right now.They are the villains of his story, they need to be there... Dick isnt the villain, he is the ally and support system the villains take away. His "part" is getting hurt and being absent. He doesnt need to build up Dick and Bruce's relationship and Dick's importance to Bruce as it was already there. He just had to highlight/remind it to everyone just before taking Dick off the game. which he did

Nightwing's writers cant pretend the headshot didnt happen.But they certainly could do a much better story with it. They cant blame King for their own failure in this regard. besides the timelines are all over the place. is Batman, Detective and Nightwing even in synch?
it almost feels like Batman is taking place in the weeks following the head shot when Dick is probably still comatose or something... And Tec? may as well be happening before the headshot as Damian is actually around & Bruce takes a break from it all to have dinnetr with Leslie & he is crazy but not in a "lost in his own mind" kind of crazy but rather the "he is so hardcore, we think it is so cool" kind of crazy that Dc loves. Tec has been stalling too tbh, issue after issue revealed to be nothing but a simulation. Nightwing happens months after the headshot. We all know he is going to come back, he even showed up in Doomsday Clock so it is not a secret. Put in a disclaimer that says these events are happening 3 months after whatever is happening in Batman and get on with healing Dick. He doesnt even need to be fixed immediately, take a couple issues where he refinds himself. Doesnt need to meet with Bruce. Dick has enough family and friends that some of then could drop by to keep the readers engaged and stall that particular reunion...Heck, they could go with the nightmares/simulation trend where the stories we read are just happening in the hero's mind and give us stories from Dick's past as he in reality is still camotose OR he can be healing and slowly "remembering" OR it can be people telling him these stories to jog his memory etc etc. Anything was better than what we have.

[oasis1313]

Darlin' Dan just couldn't resist another opportunity to dump poo-poo on the character and his fans.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

In case anyone was still expecting anything different, it looks like Dick and some of the Batfam will be zombies by issue #2 of DCeased lol.

[Schumiac]

well at least they are in good company. Supes is a zombie too..

[Jackalope89]

In case anyone was still expecting anything different, it looks like Dick and some of the Batfam will be zombies by issue #2 of DCeased lol.

Dick is already a zombie.