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  1. #2086
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    It's all just because the book is titled "Nightwing", yeah? If Grayson had been branded as "Nightwing" sales would've been higher. And is basically just what I want the book to be. "NIGHTWING" ... secret agent.
    Hard to say whether the title name played a part in Grayson's sales without access to DC's market data but I'm inclined to believe this is the case. Brand recognition matters, especially in this industry (it seems infinitely more important for comics than most businesses) and "Grayson" doesn't have the brand value that "Nightwing" does. So yeah, I figure if they had done Grayson and all the Spyral stuff, but kept Dick in costume and using the Nightwing name, sales would've been higher. And Grayson still saw a decent increase in sales for a big chunk of its run, as I recall. To this day I suspect that "Nightwing: Agent of Spyral" might've been Dick's big break.....but the lack of recognizable visual markers made the community (if not DC itself) see it as a temporary gimmick rather than a viable, sustainable status quo.

    Granted, it wouldn't have made a ton of sense for Dick to retain the costume and name while he's "undercover" as a spy.......but it didn't make a ton of sense for Spyral to recruit a dedicated and experienced hero who's also one of the world's most eligible (and handsome) bachelors either.

    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    And while I don't think it will actually happen, it would actually provide a bit of context just how awful Ric has been. "Hey, one of our biggest names, Bendis, wants to use Dick as a villain/supershady spy mastermind. We need to do something so absolutely awful that the people who would normally not want to see this will at least be happy Ric is over."
    Retroactive context maybe. Even if this turns out to be true and Dick is behind the Leviathan event (which I very much doubt) I cannot believe DC had the foresight to play "Ric" off as a narrative device to make fans more open to the idea of Leviathan-Wing.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #2087
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    It's all just because the book is titled "Nightwing", yeah? If Grayson had been branded as "Nightwing" sales would've been higher. And is basically just what I want the book to be. "NIGHTWING" ... secret agent.
    I don’t know. Even with the “Nightwing” title their current Ric direction failed to increase readership and has flatline sales lower than Grayson at its end. Yet Ric shows no signs of ending anytime soon. So really it seems it all just comes down to the whims of his current management.

    Personally I think it had to do with them wanting King and Janin on Batman, and their line wide Rebirth initiative. Not so much the “fans”.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-20-2019 at 01:37 PM.

  3. #2088
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Hard to say whether the title name played a part in Grayson's sales without access to DC's market data but I'm inclined to believe this is the case. Brand recognition matters, especially in this industry (it seems infinitely more important for comics than most businesses) and "Grayson" doesn't have the brand value that "Nightwing" does. So yeah, I figure if they had done Grayson and all the Spyral stuff, but kept Dick in costume and using the Nightwing name, sales would've been higher. And Grayson still saw a decent increase in sales for a big chunk of its run, as I recall. To this day I suspect that "Nightwing: Agent of Spyral" might've been Dick's big break.....but the lack of recognizable visual markers made the community (if not DC itself) see it as a temporary gimmick rather than a viable, sustainable status quo.

    Granted, it wouldn't have made a ton of sense for Dick to retain the costume and name while he's "undercover" as a spy.......but it didn't make a ton of sense for Spyral to recruit a dedicated and experienced hero who's also one of the world's most eligible (and handsome) bachelors either.
    I think there was definitely wiggle room when it comes to incorporating recognizable Nightwing elements into Grayson while still providing a clear visual break from his run as a vigilante. T-Shirt/tactical type stuff they did but with the blue bird symbol could have done it; its recognizably Nightwing branding while still looking totally different from the n52 suit. They really did not succeed with the character design there. But I'm sure we've had this conversation several times before.



    Retroactive context maybe. Even if this turns out to be true and Dick is behind the Leviathan event (which I very much doubt) I cannot believe DC had the foresight to play "Ric" off as a narrative device to make fans more open to the idea of Leviathan-Wing.
    Yeah I'd be shocked if Dick is behind the Leviathan threat. And even if he is, it still doesn't excuse the Ric bullshit. At this point even the intent I described in my last post would be better than them thinking its good.
    Last edited by dropkickjake; 05-20-2019 at 01:59 PM.

  4. #2089
    Incredible Member jules's Avatar
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    Nightwing: Agent of Spyral would have worked nicely as a post-Rebirth Spyral phase, where having ousted enough bad guys, Dick stuck around and helped run a kinder, more ethical Spyral team.

    At the very least I wish he’d been able to keep the Hypnos gadget, suitably debugged. It was a nifty idea, and could have been an ongoing unique selling point to distinguish Dick from the other Robins, as well as making it comparatively easy for him to switch identity between superhero and spy depending on the needs of the plot of the moment.

  5. #2090
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    I think there was definitely wiggle room when it comes to incorporating recognizable Nightwing elements into Grayson while still providing a clear visual break from his run as a vigilante. T-Shirt/tactical type stuff they did but with the blue bird symbol could have done it; its recognizably Nightwing branding while still looking totally different from the n52 suit. They really did not succeed with the character design there. But I'm sure we've had this conversation several times before.
    I think a "Nightwing" flavored spy outfit, as well as the title remaining the same, would've made a difference, definitely. Maybe not a huge one, or maybe so, we'll never know. And yeah I'm pretty sure we've discussed this several times, but you and I seem to really enjoying talking about Spyral and that whole era of Nightwing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jules View Post
    At the very least I wish he’d been able to keep the Hypnos gadget, suitably debugged. It was a nifty idea, and could have been an ongoing unique selling point to distinguish Dick from the other Robins, as well as making it comparatively easy for him to switch identity between superhero and spy depending on the needs of the plot of the moment.
    They should've put that tech into Dick's mask.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #2091

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    He should have taken over the the God Garden

  7. #2092
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy View Post
    He should have taken over the the God Garden
    Has that even showed up since Grayson?
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  8. #2093
    Extraordinary Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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  9. #2094
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy View Post
    He should have taken over the the God Garden
    Hmmmh.... looking down on the world from up high is not his thing...

    ...He can use it to break the record on base jumping...

  10. #2095
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    NIGHTWING #62 main cover by Bruno Redondo

    tumblr_prpkqxUs8K1riu867o1_1280.jpg

    There's a variant by Greg Capullo but it's just the Talon portrait

  11. #2096
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    NIGHTWING #62 main cover by Bruno Redondo

    tumblr_prpkqxUs8K1riu867o1_1280.jpg

    There's a variant by Greg Capullo but it's just the Talon portrait
    just do it talon kill bea, tell him you can never be normal and he give up on being rick
    you cant fight fate

  12. #2097
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    just do it talon kill bea, tell him you can never be normal and he give up on being rick
    you cant fight fate
    Super generic and uninspired sounds like Nightwing for the past decade. But whatever moves us on from Ric I'm game.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  13. #2098
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    just do it talon kill bea, tell him you can never be normal and he give up on being rick
    you cant fight fate
    I wouldn’t be mad at this. Would generate a better story than what we are dealing with.

  14. #2099
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    Characters like Bea and the Nightwings are the kind of characters DC should go scorched earth on, but they are never going to do it as the current people behind the book are going to protect their poop. Talon is going to be the Nightwings’ defining victory, as the people behind the book continue to play dumb when it comes to this direction of theirs.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-21-2019 at 04:19 PM.

  15. #2100
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Super generic and uninspired sounds like Nightwing for the past decade. But whatever moves us on from Ric I'm game.
    I am desperate at this point it’s a basic end to a less then basic chapter

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