Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[TheCape]

Except Didio never hated that generation. That’s a false assumption people came up with after the fact, but when you actually look a things this will be the second time Didio has tried to launch around line around them.

Didio dislike (not hate) multiple sidekick generations, because of how authomatically aged the Satelite Era crew, he doesn't dislike the characthers thenselves, just what they represent, but they have a big enougth fanbase to keep around and try something with then and why he doesn't kill then, is the same with Dick or more specifically Nightwing. I'm pretty sure that if he could have his way, we pretty much would be with Dick as Robin, Wally as KF and none of the 90s or 00s sidekicks would still be around.

Althougth i think than this second chance is more Bendis having a lot of pull, he is big enougth to have creative liberties.

[SiegePerilous02]

Except Didio never hated that generation. That’s a false assumption people came up with after the fact, but when you actually look a things this will be the second time Didio has tried to launch an entire line around them.

For a supposed Silver/Bronze only fanboy with biases, DiDio certainly is more merciful to the YJ generation even though the Titans (the Silver/Bronze age group) at one time were a far bigger deal.

[Godlike13]

Didio dislike (not hate) multiple sidekick generations, because of how authomatically aged the Satelite Era crew, he doesn't dislike the characthers thenselves, just what they represent, but they have a big enougth fanbase to keep around and try something with then and why he doesn't kill then, is the same with Dick or more specifically Nightwing. I'm pretty sure that if he could have his way, we pretty much would be with Dick as Robin, Wally as KF and none of the 90s or 00s sidekicks would still be around.

Althougth i think than this second chance is more Bendis having a lot of pull, he is big enougth to have creative liberties.

Didio dislikes Dick and Wally’s generation, he came out and said these things about them. Fans of the other characters try to adopt what he has came out and said about them in a false attempt to blame him for the failings and missteps with them.

[dietrich]

Fortunately (well, unfortunately) DC doesnt seem to care about sales figures. At least when it comes to their personal biases. Otherwise, Nightwing wouldn't be in the trouble it is, since it's one of the company's most stable and reliable titles. And Bendis has shown that he's got pull with the company despite not selling like he used to. He's got like, a hundred different imprints going and has been able to make some big changes to Superman's world, including destroying Kandor, bringing Krypton's destruction into question, and sending Jon on a seven year space journey. And if we want to we could probably include the return of the "proper" YJ characters. We know Didio hates that entire generation, yet they're back in proper form because of Bendis.

Sadly i believe that stability is part of what embolden's DC to use Nightwing as testing ground for upcoming writers. Gives them the confidence to pull lazy stuff like this Ric crap[stalling] which is still selling i might add

They know that he will sell regardless so they are careless with him [does that make sense?]

I get so confused with DC. They are a business. Are they just not ambitious? Why won't/don't they optimise their properties?

On Bendis I'm unsure.

I don't want Bendis on Nightwing because he's on a hundred different imprint's [though it doesn't appear to affect the quality of his title's that I'm reading

I'm confident that Dick is a character that has enough office support that Didio won't shelf or kill him but I won't say no to a creator who fights Dick Grayson's corner like Tomasi and Lobdell do for their respective Bat boys.

[Slim Shady]

Sadly i believe that stability is part of what embolden's DC to use Nightwing as testing ground for upcoming writers. Gives them the confidence to pull lazy stuff like this Ric crap[stalling] which is still selling i might add

They know that he will sell regardless so they are careless with him [does that make sense?]

I get so confused with DC. They are a business. Are they just not ambitious? Why won't/don't they optimise their properties?

On Bendis I'm unsure.

I don't want Bendis on Nightwing because he's on a hundred different imprint's [though it doesn't appear to affect the quality of his title's that I'm reading

I'm confident that Dick is a character that has enough office support that Didio won't shelf or kill him but I won't say no to a creator who fights Dick Grayson's corner like Tomasi and Lobdell do for their respective Bat boys.

I think we had that with Seeley, wish he had stayed longer. He had it in the past with Dixon. He needs someone like that again.

[Drako]

The fact that no one bothered to post this here just show your level of enthusiasm for the book right now.
At least the variant cover is cool.

And good for us, our guy is struggling at the moment but we still have the biggest Appreciation thread around here.

NIGHTWING #61
written by DAN JURGENS
art by CHRIS MOONEYHAM
cover by KYLE HOTZ
variant cover by WARREN LOUW
Blüdhaven is burning! Ric Grayson and the Nightwings are helpless against the rampage of Burnback. Will they be able to pull themselves together as a team in order to prevent Blüdhaven from becoming ash? Confronted with their most dire threat yet, Ric and the Nightwings must find a way to come together if lives are to be saved.

https://www.newsarama.com/44329-dc-c...citations.html

[byrd156]

The fact that no one bothered to post this here just show your level of enthusiasm for the book right now.
At least the variant cover is cool.

And good for us, our guy is struggling at the moment but we still have the biggest Appreciation thread around here.

NIGHTWING #61
written by DAN JURGENS
art by CHRIS MOONEYHAM
cover by KYLE HOTZ
variant cover by WARREN LOUW
Blüdhaven is burning! Ric Grayson and the Nightwings are helpless against the rampage of Burnback. Will they be able to pull themselves together as a team in order to prevent Blüdhaven from becoming ash? Confronted with their most dire threat yet, Ric and the Nightwings must find a way to come together if lives are to be saved.

https://www.newsarama.com/44329-dc-c...citations.html

The variant covers have been great throughout this whole Ric fiasco. The only good thing.

[Badou]

I wonder if you asked Tom King would be say he regrets shooting Nightwing in the head given the complete disaster his solo book turned into. The vast majority of writers never admit things like this that would make their work look bad, but you could remove the shooting of Nightwing in his Batman run and nothing would change at all. Such a minor part of his story ruined the Nightwing book for going on almost a year.

[Frontier]

For a supposed Silver/Bronze only fanboy with biases, DiDio certainly is more merciful to the YJ generation even though the Titans (the Silver/Bronze age group) at one time were a far bigger deal.

I think it says less about Didio being merciful and more how much pull Bendis now has at DC.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think it says less about Didio being merciful and more how much pull Bendis now has at DC.

They were the Teen Titans in the New 52 when they definitely were not the iconic team. And even if they were in limbo, that's IMO better than the indignities done to Dicks generation

He at the very least doesn't dislike them as much.

[Schumiac]

Wasn't it Didio who wanted Dick killed off in Infinite Crisis and Nightwing to be passed on to Jason? I would say, whatever his general feeling regarding Silver/Bronze age characters are, the man just personally hates Dick and wants to get rid of him. He just can't get other creators etc to back him up on this, which is why it hasnt happened. It isn't just about "age" stuff (because Jason doesn't make Bruce that much younger), it is dislike for the character.. So don't think he would ever want Dick as Robin either.

I wonder if you asked Tom King would be say he regrets shooting Nightwing in the head given the complete disaster his solo book turned into. The vast majority of writers never admit things like this that would make their work look bad, but you could remove the shooting of Nightwing in his Batman run and nothing would change at all. Such a minor part of his story ruined the Nightwing book for going on almost a year.

It wasn't minor though... Dick being shot and unable to help Batman in any way is an important part of the "breaking the Batman" story in that it has sent him spiraling down (was the last drop) and he doesn't have the one person who is his greatest support all around to help him out. It has made him all the more vulnerable to Bane's games... I know King supposedly offered to have Dick fixed right up, but it wouldn't really work if he was "back in the game" immediately and able to help Bats. To me, that bit sounds like something something King says to lessen the fan backlash towards himself ("I shot him, yes, but i didn't mean it to be such a mess and last thing long... I am not the one to blame")... Makes sense that Nightwing would be kept away for the duration of that story. I just wish King would hurry up and get done though, as it is very frustrating.


Also, if Ric is going to go out "heroing" with the other Nightwings (ugh so hate writing that) someone at least give him a proper mask already... I get very irritated at the charcoal/spraypaint mask, it looks very undignified.

[Frontier]

They were the Teen Titans in the New 52 when they definitely were not the iconic team. And even if they were in limbo, that's IMO better than the indignities done to Dicks generation

He at the very least doesn't dislike them as much.

Yeah, but they were so badly mis-managed back then that I don't think it was much better.

[Badou]

It wasn't minor though... Dick being shot and unable to help Batman in any way is an important part of the "breaking the Batman" story in that it has sent him spiraling down (was the last drop) and he doesn't have the one person who is his greatest support all arouund to help him out. I know King supposedly offered to have Dick fixed right up, but it wouldn't really work if he was "back in the game" immediately and able to help Bats. To me, that bit sounds like something something King says to lessen the fan backlash towards himself ("I shot him, yes, but i didn't mean it to be such a mess and last thing long... I am not the one to blame")... Makes sense that Nightwing would be kept away for the duration of that story. I just wish King would hurry up and get done though, as it is very frustrating.

No, it was minor. He shot him in the head at the end of #55 and had an issue or two where Bruce went and beat up KGBeast and then it has been a non issue. Hasn't even been mentioned sense. Trying to justify it as Bruce being so hurt and damaged because of it is completely false because the whole arc of "Bane breaking the Bat" has been built around Catwoman and their relationship. King has done fuck all with Dick and setting any of that up. Catwoman is the plot point that he has been constantly going back to and using and Dick getting shot is basically being ignored in the main Batman book. There has been no scenes or anything about Bruce seriously lamenting Dick's situation the way he did any other tragedy or him going to see Dick in the hospital. Nothing. Bruce is 10x more upset that Catwoman left him at the alter than Dick getting shot by how the story has gone.

It was done for two reasons. One was for shock value to drum up attention and the other is King wanted to take Dick off the table so when King "kills" Bruce he isn't there to take up the Batman mantle in King's Knightfall knockoff. That is kind of it and why the Ric garbage is lasting so long. It wasn't the last straw in Bane's master plan (that is obviously Thomas Wayne) and you could completely erase the whole Dick part of the story and nothing really changes. It is why King even said he would undo it immediately with a Zatanna spell if editorial didn't want to deal with Dick getting shot (I wish they had done that instead) because King knows it is such a minor part of his story that it didn't really matter what happened afterwards because all he needed from it was just that panel of Dick getting shot in the head and the outcome or anything was irrelevant to him.

[Ascended]

Sadly i believe that stability is part of what embolden's DC to use Nightwing as testing ground for upcoming writers. Gives them the confidence to pull lazy stuff like this Ric crap[stalling] which is still selling i might add

They know that he will sell regardless so they are careless with him [does that make sense?]

I get so confused with DC. They are a business. Are they just not ambitious? Why won't/don't they optimise their properties?

No, it makes sense. Nightwing is going to sell decently no matter what, so it makes for a risk-free testing ground. As a business, DC isn't going to care about what that does to Dick or his character; they're still making money from the book and they're able to groom strong talent for major gigs, which will make them *more* money. For them, it's win/win.

As for why they don't invest in this brand.....I dont know. We dont have nearly enough data to see what DC sees. They might see a risk-free testing ground as more worthwhile over the long term. Personal bias definitely seems to have a role to play, considering the things Didio has said publicly, though I don't know if it's as much a barrier as we think it is. They might just not care; the book does respectably, and they've got a lot of other IP's that require work and attention, so why push for more from Dick when that energy can be poured into a title that won't sell without it? They might believe that as high as the sales floor is, the ceiling is low and the book won't do much better with more effort. Grayson was an excellent title but by the end it's sales weren't much higher than average, so if a great book is barely going to make more money, why not put that talent to use elsewhere? For the record I have my theories on why Grayson didn't sell better. But DC may not agree.

[Schumiac]

No, it was minor. He shot him in the head at the end of #55 and had an issue or two where Bruce went and beat up KGBeast and then it has been a non issue. Hasn't even been mentioned sense. Trying to justify it as Bruce being so hurt and damaged because of it is completely false because the whole arc of "Bane breaking the Bat" has been built around Catwoman and their relationship. King has done fuck all with Dick and setting any of that up. Catwoman is the plot point that he has been constantly going back to and using and Dick getting shot is basically being ignored in the main Batman book. There has been no scenes or anything about Bruce seriously lamenting Dick's situation the way he did any other tragedy or him going to see Dick in the hospital. Nothing. Bruce is 10x more upset that Catwoman left him at the alter than Dick getting shot by how the story has gone.

It was done for two reasons. One was for shock value to drum up attention and the other is King wanted to take Dick off the table so when King "kills" Bruce he isn't there to take up the Batman mantle in King's Knightfall knockoff. That is kind of it and why the Ric garbage is lasting so long. It wasn't the last straw in Bane's master plan (that is obviously Thomas Wayne) and you could completely erase the whole Dick part of the story and nothing really changes. It is why King even said he would undo it immediately with a Zatanna spell if editorial didn't want to deal with Dick getting shot (I wish they had done that instead) because King knows it is such a minor part of his story that it didn't really matter what happened afterwards because all he needed from it was just that panel of Dick getting shot in the head and the outcome or anything was irrelevant to him.

The idea was, Catwoman dealt a huge blow and Dick could help Bruce pick up the pieces (an entire issue was spent to show that), and then Bane made sure he couldn't by having him taken out too. So taking Dick out was about taking Bruce's support system out which is why IMO the psychological nonsense part of King's story wouldn't work if Dick is around and he is now having his breakdown... As Bruce is getting through the Nightmates stuff Dick is mentioned, like when facing Pyg or when having the "married to Catwoman and than she is assasinated" delusions. So it is also still there at the back of his mind. There is no denying Bruce's manpain is huge though and it seems like now he is starting to backtrack and noticing something was off with how Catwoman ended things with him or something. I half hope he starts to realize ALL of it was Bane's master plan, but honestly with King, hard to tell... There is also the fact that, after Dick got shot he went super-violent and raging without a thought, so Gordon doesn't really trust him anymore like before, and that may end up playing into the upcoming story...

Dick being taken out does mean he can't replace Batman, yes, but then if he wasn't taken out, he would already be at Gotham trying to help Batman stop Bane. That's the point. He can't be allowed to be there while it is happening, not as an ally doing actual fighting and not as emotional support. It is not like Dick would wait on the side, till Bane is completely done with Bruce and has destroyed him, and then show up in Gotham, take over the mantle, stop Bane first thing (where Bruce has failed spectacularly) and then go on being Gotham's hero as Bruce is off licking his wounds and mending... Such a story was never going to be written... The story is Bane is taking Bruce down meticulously by breaking his heart, his spirit, his mind and then finally will break him physically too and leave him all shattered. Can't have that with Dick right by his side.