Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[Godlike13]

Babs was an audience surrogate with her point of view on Ric, so ya that scene was utter insulting bullshit by the writers. One thing I hate is being written down to and talked to by writers like that. They are clearly not convincing people through their stories and work with Ric so they basically resorted to just telling us that we’re not being fair and should give Ric a chance. Really just shows the caliber of creators we’re dealing with on this run.

[Ascended]

Eh, Im not bothered. I mean, the fandom was against this from the start, long before the first issue hit. We judged this story before we had even read it. I think the writers have a fair retort here; we're talking sh*t about something and a lot of us haven't even read it. I know I haven't. So what really gives me the right to judge the work? And if I did check it out it's always possible that its not as bad as I've thought it was.

However, the problem there is that we've got previews and detailed reviews to read, and that's enough for us to make a relatively informed decision about whether we spend money on it. We've flipped through the issues at the LCS, followed the story, talked to people who are reading. We don't need to give Ric a chance because even without reading it, we're able to know enough to know whether it'll appeal to us.

Still. We are utterly, ruthlessly, cruelly unfair to creators. We're entitled and possessive of characters we have no claim to. We take things we dislike personally and we blame the creators for almost everything, when the business reality is certainly far more complex. They're entitled to take a shot back at us every once in a while, as long as they keep it professional.

[L.H.]

Speaking for myself, I'm still reading "NightwingS".
I gave the writers all the trust I could and, sometimes, something seemed interesting.
That's not the point. The point is that there Is no story to talk about. They're wasting time and issues just giving us the same no story and bad dialogues. Nothing Is going forward, it's like be locked at home, waiting for your mother to came back and open the door. We know we have to wait for something, but why give us this crap and no something better?
Something that happened before the shot, or old stories like Nightwing Year One, or flashback stories from his friends and family memories. Instead, we are stucked here, with the "cabbie".
You know, even having those NightwingS running around Bludhaven whit Dick still in coma would have been better, IMHO

[Schumiac]

Speaking for myself, I'm still reading "NightwingS".
I gave the writers all the trust I could and, sometimes, something seemed interesting.
That's not the point. The point is that there Is no story to talk about. They're wasting time and issues just giving us the same no story and bad dialogues. Nothing Is going forward, it's like be locked at home, waiting for your mother to came back and open the door. We know we have to wait for something, but why give us this crap and no something better?
Something that happened before the shot, or old stories like Nightwing Year One, or flashback stories from his friends and family memories. Instead, we are stucked here, with the "cabbie".
You know, even having those NightwingS running around Bludhaven whit Dick still in coma would have been better, IMHO

This... I AM reading the damn thing. I give it a try. I even understand that the writers are forced into writing something they don't want, a character they aren't interested in, who had a terrible thing done to him and is left a shell of who he was -esp as far as "superheroics" go- which is also not something THEY did but someone else did. So they have my sympathy and understanding in those parts. But I will NOT excuse them for delivering such low quality crap every single issue. For not even making an effort to write something semi-decent. We all have had to do things we don't necessarily want or enjoy in our lives. You just roll with the punches and try to do your best. And you do NOT turn a character's own solo into a place where issue after issue you talk about how crazy he is and how he sucked and how he didn't make sense and how some forgettable character of their creation who made a generic political speech is 100 times more heroic and powerful than he ever was blah blah blah. It is disrespectful to the character and to the fans, the people they are trying to sell the book to. So, yeah, they don't get to complain to the fans. Show me good faith, try to do your best with what you have, show a minimum amount of respect and care for the character you have been entrusted with and if I am still nitpicking, you can call me out on that. But not when you are failing this badly.

You know, 8 issues in, if your most inspired moment is a dig you take at the readers for complaining about the current storyline, you are absolutely not doing your job well.

[Godlike13]

Eh, Im not bothered. I mean, the fandom was against this from the start, long before the first issue hit. We judged this story before we had even read it. I think the writers have a fair retort here; we're talking sh*t about something and a lot of us haven't even read it. I know I haven't. So what really gives me the right to judge the work? And if I did check it out it's always possible that its not as bad as I've thought it was.

However, the problem there is that we've got previews and detailed reviews to read, and that's enough for us to make a relatively informed decision about whether we spend money on it. We've flipped through the issues at the LCS, followed the story, talked to people who are reading. We don't need to give Ric a chance because even without reading it, we're able to know enough to know whether it'll appeal to us.

Still. We are utterly, ruthlessly, cruelly unfair to creators. We're entitled and possessive of characters we have no claim to. We take things we dislike personally and we blame the creators for almost everything, when the business reality is certainly far more complex. They're entitled to take a shot back at us every once in a while, as long as they keep it professional.

Except this is 8 issues in. Readers reading those lines are giving Ric a chance. Trying to shift things to readers not giving Ric a chance at this point is lazy, cowardly, ingenious bull crap. Lazy creators not wanting to not take responsibility for what they have failed to accomplish after 8 issues through the work. They are well into Ric now. Nightwing readers were blindsided by Ric, and then further blindsided by the last minute creators shifts. And all they have done since is close their eyes, cover their ears, and push on regardless. And now these writers want to put it on Nightwing’s readers as not being fair before these writers leave. That’s totale insensitive bull crap.

And this goes back to one of the problems with this run to begin with, a lack of understanding who their audience even was or is with Ric. All they have had Ric do is take shots at Dick. The character readers were following. Of course Nightwing readers are gonna be apprehensive and abrasive when they are following the the book and character for 50 issues, only to have new creators come in have the character now repeatedly tell us how stupid that character that we have been following actually was. All while they do nothing but waste time.
So no they don’t have the right to take shots back at us. They know just as well as we do that is far from an ideal or fair situation. They screwed Nightwing readers, failed to convince them with Ric and what they came up with last minute, and now want to takes shots and shift fault on to readers before they, the current creators on Ric, leave. That’s so wrong.

[Badou]

I've read every issue. I just don't pay for it anymore. I don't feel DC deserves any money for the product they are releasing because of how insulting it is to the readers that had been paying money for the title. There is just a complete lack of effort put into the story and I don't think they should be rewarded for it.

As for the Babs panel it was just Lobdell trying to shove in some **** about how readers should have given "Ric" a chance and he wasn't bad while using Babs as a mouthpiece like Godlike said. Having a character people like in Babs give her "approval" of Ric comes off as just forced. The issue is that Lobdell can't even be bothered to script the issues himself and had someone else basically co-write the series with him. We are supposed to feel some emotional connection to Ric in that he for once isn't completely bitching about who Dick Grayson was, but at the same time a writer like Lobdell can't be bothered to finish issues himself or do anything interesting with the concept? **** off.

All he did was have Ric complain about the same things constantly, repeat the same monologues over and over, and then dragged in Joker's Daughter into this because no one at DC cared what he did with this series and got to bring back a character he liked but fans hated probably just to mess with them. He was a disaster on this series and while not the sole reason he is still a big reason the book got ran into the ground. You can like Lobdell's other work but he was a mess on this book, and him wagging his finger at the readers here by trying to say how good Ric actually was is just so forced. If he was actually clever he should have got meta about how **** Ric is and try and write the book being in on the "joke" of a direction this is and then just do dumb fun crap, but that would require effort and there was none put into this book.

[oasis1313]

Eh, Im not bothered. I mean, the fandom was against this from the start, long before the first issue hit. We judged this story before we had even read it. I think the writers have a fair retort here; we're talking sh*t about something and a lot of us haven't even read it. I know I haven't. So what really gives me the right to judge the work? And if I did check it out it's always possible that its not as bad as I've thought it was.

However, the problem there is that we've got previews and detailed reviews to read, and that's enough for us to make a relatively informed decision about whether we spend money on it. We've flipped through the issues at the LCS, followed the story, talked to people who are reading. We don't need to give Ric a chance because even without reading it, we're able to know enough to know whether it'll appeal to us.

Still. We are utterly, ruthlessly, cruelly unfair to creators. We're entitled and possessive of characters we have no claim to. We take things we dislike personally and we blame the creators for almost everything, when the business reality is certainly far more complex. They're entitled to take a shot back at us every once in a while, as long as they keep it professional.

"The customer is always right," comes to mind. We've ALL read the non-adventures of Ric, and many of us really tried to give it a break--even I tried to defend it and the posts are still back there to prove it. It would have been better to leave Dick in a coma and place a panel or two in several Bat-Family books where they occasionally turn up at the nursing home and think about how this could happen to ANY of them at ANY time so why are they all doing the Spandex thang--or even better, stick him in a back bedroom in Wayne Manor and let the Family have the harsh reality of their lifestyle lying right there in their faces, like a Real Family would. How many of us have sat through deathbed vigils, accident aftermaths, cancer chemotherapy? It would cause endless turmoil. Or "Why him and not me?" Any number of questions, guilt, grief, etc etc etc. It would be a gold-mine of angst for all of them.

[nightbird]

I finally dropped the book a few weeks ago, but damn if you aren't right. Why give this book the best art it's ever had with the worst narrative it's ever had? I foolishly and naively thought this could go somewhere interesting at the start, but I couldn't have been more wrong.

Tell me about that. They’re not only wasting Travis Moore’s art, but also story potential. Okay, they needed to give Dick amnesia, okay they wanted Ric to be born out of that mess they created... But it’s so frustrating to see, that out of all possibilities they decided to go with most laziest, most unimaginative and uninspiring writing ever for the character. There is no emotional value in Ric’s stories, when we could get some real tear-jerking and inspiring moments.

[Hizashi]

Tell me about that. They’re not only wasting Travis Moore’s art, but also story potential. Okay, they needed to give Dick amnesia, okay they wanted Ric to be born out of that mess they created... But it’s so frustrating to see, that out of all possibilities they decided to go with most laziest, most unimaginative and uninspiring writing ever for the character. There is no emotional value in Ric’s stories, when we could get some real tear-jerking and inspiring moments.

Yep, exactly. Many of us are still reading it, I just couldn't justify spending the money on the book anymore. And you're right, there was story potential here, amnesia plots are cliche/tropes for a reason, they're effective shortcuts for other stories.

And that Travis Moore art - I hope he sticks around whenever Dick comes back properly.

[oasis1313]

Is the regular artist supposed to be Moore or Mooneyham? It looks like Mooneyham took his inspiration from Klaus Jansen but he hasn't got that special genius that belongs only to Klaus.

[Ascended]

"The customer is always right," comes to mind.

Ha! The only people who believe that are customers.

Not even Burger King believed it when they (I believe?) coined the term.

[Rac7d*]

can someone tell me where solo nightwing begins after he leaves the new titans

[oasis1313]

Ha! The only people who believe that are customers.

Not even Burger King believed it when they (I believe?) coined the term.

That adage came along long before Burger King. A good business wants repeat business. It wants the customers happy and telling their friends what a good place they are to do business with. As long as the customer isn't asking for something impossible or illegal, they should be respected. If you went into a drugstore and said, "I don't have a prescription but I want a hundred Oxycontins and I want them for free"--there is no way to make that customer happy--at that point, the folks behind the counter won't consider you a legitimate "customer" but a likely threat. However, if you go to an Armani store with a platinum credit card and buy a suit, they'll make sure you're fitted out like a million--they are not going to mock you to your face and tell you they can't get you into a nice business suit because you're ugly and it's all your fault that you're ugly. These are just examples, but even a mere comic book fan has the right to be respected and be satisfied with their purchase.

[Vinsanity]

That adage came along long before Burger King. A good business wants repeat business. It wants the customers happy and telling their friends what a good place they are to do business with. As long as the customer isn't asking for something impossible or illegal, they should be respected. If you went into a drugstore and said, "I don't have a prescription but I want a hundred Oxycontins and I want them for free"--there is no way to make that customer happy--at that point, the folks behind the counter won't consider you a legitimate "customer" but a likely threat. However, if you go to an Armani store with a platinum credit card and buy a suit, they'll make sure you're fitted out like a million--they are not going to mock you to your face and tell you they can't get you into a nice business suit because you're ugly and it's all your fault that you're ugly. These are just examples, but even a mere comic book fan has the right to be respected and be satisfied with their purchase.

Wait you're telling me I can't go into a drugstore and do that? Well, there goes my Tuesday night.

[Ascended]

even a mere comic book fan has the right to be respected and be satisfied with their purchase.

Oh absolutely. But you can respect the customer and build a solid relationship built on brand trust and take good care of them without telling them they're right about everything. Dont mind me; I spent years managing a restaurant frequented by the rich and influential and it taught me that customers are more like children; you have to hold their hand and walk them through the experience. You gotta be polite, patient, and respectful, sure, but if you start with the "yes, of course you're right" you'll drown under the weight of people who dont know how to cook telling you how to prepare a medium-rare steak.

I mean hey, a lot of us fans were very much against the idea of Grayson, before the story began. We were far from right about that, and if DC had listened to us we wouldn't have gotten one of the best runs Dick has seen in thirty years, right?

And was that saying around before Burger King? I could swear I remember reading that they're the ones who coined it. Or at least popularized it. Eh, who knows? I've got so much random business information rattling around my head sometimes it glitches out.