Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[Badou]

The reason Bludhaven pre-New 52 worked was because it was built over a long period with a slower burn to it. Rushing Dick back there without a clear definition of how this version is different and why Dick is even there hurts Bludhaven I feel.

I think it is highly debatable if pre-new 52 Bludhaven worked. There was nothing to compare Dixon's Bludhaven to since this was Dick's first solo series, but I think as time went on and we saw more Bludhaven it revealed a lot of problems with the whole concept. Nightwing wasn't a successful solo character because of Bludhaven and he would have been successful in nearly any kind of solo setting because the character was already well liked, but now many think that Bludhvaen is tied to his success when I think it is the opposite. Dick is the one carrying around a dead corpse in Bludhaven which would have zero chance at lasting if not for Dick.

Seeley spent a long time and put a lot of effort into trying to build Bludhaven into something. He was also the perfect person to do this because he did not like the Dixon era Bludhaven and Blockbuster. He wasn't a fan of them and only agreed to write the book if he could do what he wanted in it. So he really tried to redesign Bludhaven to be something more than a "gritter Gotham" and tried give Blockbuster an actual character beyond a Kingpin knockoff. I think Seeley did as good a job as anyone could have and approached it the best way possible, but it didn't matter because it really showed the core problems of Bludhaven.

It ended up not working because at its core Bludhaven just is a bad concept and has very limited story potiental. There is just nothing there. It doesn't matter if they make it look live Vegas or a darker Gotham. There is just nothing in the city that inspires any lasting interest because it is so devoid of interesting elements. There is also no reason for Dick to even be in Bludhaven other than DC wants to make Nightwing their Daredevil and he needed to be in a city running around on rooftops and doing some boring normal job during the day.

Even Seeley understood why Dick had zero reason to go to or stay in Bludhaven so he just had him go to Bludhaven because Superman told him to go there, and tried to build him a love interest tied to the city to give him a reason to care about it and stay. Then he also tried to build up a deep connection between Blockbuster and Bludhaven that would again tie Dick indirectly more to the city. As DC wants Blockbuster to be Dick's archenemy (which is dumb), but again like with the love interest in Shawn it is trying to build an indirect connection to the city rather than a direct one because unless you retcon Dick's history a lot he has no direct connection or reason to give that much of a **** about Bludhaven. Then once the Shawn relationship was finished and Blockbuster was dealt with the city had to stand on its own and predictably it failed because it has no identity or anything that makes it special or any big ties to Dick.

One of the problems with new Bludhaven was that the Grayson direction, and those world elements, didn't really run it's full course yet. They cut it short, stopped the spy angle cold, and threw him back in Bluhaven making Bludhaven seem like the bad guy. And before anyone brings up sales, Ric sales are **** and thats still going strong despite everything. I believe if they built to going back to Bludhaven, and let the spy angle naturally run its course, then eventually going back to Bludhaven could have been viewed differently and ultimately better.

I'll forever be bitter that the Grayson ended prematurely. That Spy Wars arc was probably going to be the biggest single story that Dick had ever been involved in that was HIS story that HIS own book was doing instead of being tied in to something the Batman book or the JL or some event book was doing, and it was all abandoned. I would have still hated Bludhvaen regardless, but it is was such a massive step down going from a story where Dick felt important to just generic street level stuff. I know Seeley tried to alternate between the Bludhvaen and world traveling stories, but I don't think that worked. It never felt smooth.

[WonderNight]

100% badou. Also remember when suicide squad and midnighter were coming under the Grayson "family" of books were dick a corner stone of the dcu as a solo main hero.

Now he just feels like just another sidekick, Robin and street leveler. Sad

[oasis1313]

100% badou. Also remember when suicide squad and midnighter were coming under the Grayson "family" of books were dick a corner stone of the dcu as a solo main hero.

Now he just feels like just another sidekick, Robin and street leveler. Sad

At least Darlin' Dan is happy.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think it is highly debatable if pre-new 52 Bludhaven worked. There was nothing to compare Dixon's Bludhaven to since this was Dick's first solo series, but I think as time went on and we saw more Bludhaven it revealed a lot of problems with the whole concept. Nightwing wasn't a successful solo character because of Bludhaven and he would have been successful in nearly any kind of solo setting because the character was already well liked, but now many think that Bludhvaen is tied to his success when I think it is the opposite. Dick is the one carrying around a dead corpse in Bludhaven which would have zero chance at lasting if not for Dick.

Seeley spent a long time and put a lot of effort into trying to build Bludhaven into something. He was also the perfect person to do this because he did not like the Dixon era Bludhaven and Blockbuster. He wasn't a fan of them and only agreed to write the book if he could do what he wanted in it. So he really tried to redesign Bludhaven to be something more than a "gritter Gotham" and tried give Blockbuster an actual character beyond a Kingpin knockoff. I think Seeley did as good a job as anyone could have and approached it the best way possible, but it didn't matter because it really showed the core problems of Bludhaven.

It ended up not working because at its core Bludhaven just is a bad concept and has very limited story potiental. There is just nothing there. It doesn't matter if they make it look live Vegas or a darker Gotham. There is just nothing in the city that inspires any lasting interest because it is so devoid of interesting elements. There is also no reason for Dick to even be in Bludhaven other than DC wants to make Nightwing their Daredevil and he needed to be in a city running around on rooftops and doing some boring normal job during the day.

Even Seeley understood why Dick had zero reason to go to or stay in Bludhaven so he just had him go to Bludhaven because Superman told him to go there, and tried to build him a love interest tied to the city to give him a reason to care about it and stay. Then he also tried to build up a deep connection between Blockbuster and Bludhaven that would again tie Dick indirectly more to the city. As DC wants Blockbuster to be Dick's archenemy (which is dumb), but again like with the love interest in Shawn it is trying to build an indirect connection to the city rather than a direct one because unless you retcon Dick's history a lot he has no direct connection or reason to give that much of a **** about Bludhaven. Then once the Shawn relationship was finished and Blockbuster was dealt with the city had to stand on its own and predictably it failed because it has no identity or anything that makes it special or any big ties to Dick.



I'll forever be bitter that the Grayson ended prematurely. That Spy Wars arc was probably going to be the biggest single story that Dick had ever been involved in that was HIS story that HIS own book was doing instead of being tied in to something the Batman book or the JL or some event book was doing, and it was all abandoned. I would have still hated Bludhvaen regardless, but it is was such a massive step down going from a story where Dick felt important to just generic street level stuff. I know Seeley tried to alternate between the Bludhvaen and world traveling stories, but I don't think that worked. It never felt smooth.

Agreed.

I read the first few of the old trades for the Nightwing series (I think A Knight in Bludhaven, Rough Justice and Love and Bullets) and while they certainly weren't bad by any stretch of the imagination, they weren't particularly great either. The most memorable things to come out of those stories were when his most important relationships guest starred: a Bat-Family member, one of the Titans or Superman. None of the content associated with Bludhaven stood out. There's nothing important tying him there. It was the setting of his first solo series, but he was a big character with lots if connections long before he got a solo.

[Frontier]

I liked Dixon and Seeley's Bludhaven...

https://twitter.com/NickDerington/st...08121814437889

Kind of reminds me of some of Seeley's work on Nightwing.

Honestly kind of makes me think that Nightwing is probably the one member of the Batfamily I think Bendis would feel the most at home with. Maybe him or Babs but I have no idea what people's baseline for Batgirl is at this point.

[oasis1313]

I can't imagine that Bendis could possibly like both Tim and Dick. He looks like 1000% Team Tim to me. I'd like to be wrong, but he just impresses me as a more indulged version of Tynion.

[byrd156]

I can't imagine that Bendis could possibly like both Tim and Dick. He looks like 1000% Team Tim to me. I'd like to be wrong, but he just impresses me as a more indulged version of Tynion.

Why? How is it hard to believe that he would like Dick and Tim? You can like more than one character.

[Rac7d*]

Thank you. Nightwing needs to go out into the world and stop being all up under daddy. It amazes me sometimes when nightwing fans are so scared to let him leave the nest and grow up.

But why dc the center of the dcu's spyverse when you can be just another robin in sea of robins.

Hes already grown up, their is no where he could go that would stop him from coming is Bruce called nowhere

[Rac7d*]

Why? How is it hard to believe that he would like Dick and Tim? You can like more than one character.

but not robins someone will get less focus then the other becasue there are so many
Its not Dick or Damian fault but Jason being a god guy gives him seniority and such fan force

[WonderNight]

Hes already grown up, their is no where he could go that would stop him from coming is Bruce called nowhere

Never said he cant still interact with the family, its a shared universe. But nightwing should be out in the dcu building his own home, family and legacy. I'm tired of nightwing just being a supporting character and sidekick, its time he starts being one of dc's main heroes.

There's no difference between being nightwing and being robin, that sucks. So he in blue now. Great. But hey that movie though..Nope wait for batman's movie first. His solo though.. Nope wait for batman story to finish. Maybe join the "big leagues" the JL.. Nope batman is there (but mera, hawkgirl and supergirl can with aquaman, hawkman and superman still there).

Hell snyder start the DCEU with dick DEAD! kill of sceen before DCEU even STARTS! Im just tired man. Dick hasn't grown, robin is currently more independent then nightwing. Nightwing is just a side character the dc keeps around because he's popular, so they just isolate in bludhaven and use him to job and push other.

[Arsenal]

but not robins someone will get less focus then the other becasue there are so many
Its not Dick or Damian fault but Jason being a god guy gives him seniority and such fan force

... uh what now?

[Dzetoun]

but not robins someone will get less focus then the other becasue there are so many
Its not Dick or Damian fault but Jason being a god guy gives him seniority and such fan force

Yeah, I will second Arsenal in needing an explanation of this one. Dick is decades senior to Jason both as Robin and as an independent good guy. Both Dick and Damian (and for that matter, Tim) have a larger fan following than Jason, judging by sales numbers. Jason does certainly have great popularity, particularly with regard to the Under the Red Hood animated feature and the Arkham Knight video game.

[redmax99]

but not robins someone will get less focus then the other becasue there are so many
Its not Dick or Damian fault but Jason being a god guy gives him seniority and such fan force

i don't understand your statement, but you need to remember jason is not in the bat's office he's a bat character but not in his office so is damian they are under the superman banner and tim is under bendis pen right now. the only robin in the bats office is dick that's why he could get shot in the head and not be their for bruce.

[Rac7d*]

I can't imagine that Bendis could possibly like both Tim and Dick. He looks like 1000% Team Tim to me. I'd like to be wrong, but he just impresses me as a more indulged version of Tynion.

its not about what he likes its what his son likes

[Claude]

Yeah, I will second Arsenal in needing an explanation of this one. Dick is decades senior to Jason both as Robin and as an independent good guy. Both Dick and Damian (and for that matter, Tim) have a larger fan following than Jason, judging by sales numbers. Jason does certainly have great popularity, particularly with regard to the Under the Red Hood animated feature and the Arkham Knight video game.

It's funny to think of the benefits that potentially come with that. I can't remember who it was, back in the day, but they used to make a pretty good case that the "Grayson" plot - that is,a member of the Bat Family pretends to be 'turned' by a morally dubious organisation to which he's really Batman's man on the inside - was potentially the best Jason Todd story that could have been told. He wouldn't have had the complications the Bat Line had with everyone suddenly stopping talking about Dick whilst they were supposed to be mourning him, because Jason could slip out and not see anyone for months at a time plausibly without anyone flagging it as strange. He wouldn't have had the obvious "refuses to fully submit because he wont kill" flag on his Spyral record because he doesn't have a No Kill rule, and his fractious relationship with other characters mean that he could 'turn' on them more plausibly.

And then when he's outed as a Spyral agent, you could have got a lot of material out of his reaction to other characters believing his turn was genuine.

But, perhaps more helpfully, he doesn't have a "classic" status quo to return to - so it could plausibly have been a "permanent" change in the way that nobody really believed (although I hoped!) it was for Dick. But it also could have been permanent because, as Lobdell has proven, the smaller Todd fanbase is a consistently loyal one - without the push to return to a 90s nostalgia on the one hand, and with sales dependable enough to keep the book afloat, Todd could have run forever where Grayson could not.


Which is a bit of a sidetrack - I wouldn't wish that book into existence, because it worked so well for Dick at the time that it did. (And Dick's just better than Jason. So there. ) But it's interesting to think of the ways Dick's fame and popularity are in some ways a hindrance. Jason Todd wouldn't have had the lame showing Dick did in Forever Evil, for instance, because nine times out of ten he just wouldn't be in a book like that - and if he was, he'd be a character that you couldn't assume the reader would know so he'd need to do more to attract their interest.