Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[Dzetoun]

On the other hand "Grayson" hardly ever put Dick into situations were he had to morally dubious stuff, and Spyral never really tested him to see how loyal he really was to them. Which was imo really a weak point of the whole thing.

Actually, Grayson began in a very dark, or at least adult, direction, with the first three issues featuring manipulation, cannibal scientists, tragedy, sexual games, and much else. Then, in the fourth issue, you could almost hear the cries of “pull up, pull up, Mayday, Mayday!” We have a sharp turn toward the skull girls as carnival figures, Helena as a sympathetic friend, Tiger as an honorable warrior, the cannibal doctor as a recurring joke (leading to eventually writing her out in Robin War with a twist that made no sense at all) and chasing each other over the rooftops. I remember King saying there was talk of ending Grayson with issue five or six. I wonder if these changes relate to that?

[Rakiduam]

No his book isn’t selling better, but the gap has closed since their respective change in directions. Though Dick has moved twice as much product. Not that it matters. The current Bat office sees Nightwing as lesser. They could give a shit about Dick’s fanbase. You certainly didn’t see them commissioning spiffy new designs to help his “new direction”, they never struggle to keep creators on Jason’s book, and they even went to Lobdell for Nightwing to half write in his spare time. If we can even call it that. Dick’s fanbase does not matter. That’s pretty crystal clear at this point.

Which is why I find it funny that there are some that still think it was Dick’s fanbase that had something to do with the ending of Grayson.

Btw some might also want to take a look at where Lobdell and Jason’s sales were at that same time compared to Grayson.

I don't think fan base matters all that much, Babs fanbase is huge, and sold great under Simone, then her rebirth title generated a lot of buzz but fall fast.

Then you have Jason Todd, tumblr and twitter go crazy every time he appears somewhere (aw jaybird) and most think his title is at it's best but doesn't really sells that much.

Directions and push seem to respond to whatever whim edditorial has more than number of sales, what leads me to think is true that comics are not a business but a marketing tool.

[Godlike13]

Actually, Grayson began in a very dark, or at least adult, direction, with the first three issues featuring manipulation, cannibal scientists, tragedy, sexual games, and much else. Then, in the fourth issue, you could almost hear the cries of “pull up, pull up, Mayday, Mayday!” We have a sharp turn toward the skull girls as carnival figures, Helena as a sympathetic friend, Tiger as an honorable warrior, the cannibal doctor as a recurring joke (leading to eventually writing her out in Robin War with a twist that made no sense at all) and chasing each other over the rooftops. I remember King saying there was talk of ending Grayson with issue five or six. I wonder if these changes relate to that?

I think that has more has to do with Seeley and King’s conflicting styles. Seeley went lighter, and King heavier. So we’d get an issue like The Gun Goes Off, followed by Dick playing with the skull girls, followed by Dick having to walk a new born through the desert after its mother they were abducting dies.

And between the constant lying, the stealing, the kidnapping, and brainwashing I personally think Dick was put into plenty of situations where he was tested with morally dubious stuff. Dick himself was not going to become morally dubious though, because then they lose that dichotomy and that struggle. Though Spyral never really did test how loyal he truly was, but that’s because ultimately it was a trap. Minos for example was there to lure him further in.

[Aahz]

There was some wired stuff going on at Spyral but Dick's morality was never really pushed to his limits, The Gun Goes Off came maybe the closed but even that was pretty minor. It was never really a life or death situation.
Something like when during the Genevieve Valentine run, Catwoman was forced to kill her cousin (?).

I could never really understand the hype around Grayson, imo they should have either gone dark and pushed Dick really to his limits, with him in constant danger that they discover that he spies for Batman, or they should have gone for really over the top Spy adventures.

[Robanker]

There was some wired stuff going on at Spyral but Dick's morality was never really pushed to his limits, The Gun Goes Off came maybe the closed but even that was pretty minor. It was never really a life or death situation.
Something like when during the Genevieve Valentine run, Catwoman was forced to kill her cousin (?).

I could never really understand the hype around Grayson, imo they should have either gone dark and pushed Dick really to his limits, with him in constant danger that they discover that he spies for Batman, or they should have gone for really over the top Spy adventures.

The hype really just comes down to Dick being put in an unusual situation and adapting in ways that felt entirely on-point with his characterization. It was a fun adventure taking him somewhere we hadn't seen and it didn't read like the editorial mandate to shake things up that it most definitely was.

[Badou]

On the other hand "Grayson" hardly ever put Dick into situations were he had to morally dubious stuff, and Spyral never really tested him to see how loyal he really was to them. Which was imo really a weak point of the whole thing.

Well the reason for that is because Spyral knew who Dick was. So it isn't like Dick went in undercover and had to hide he was Nightwing and worked with Batman. He wasn't trying to pretend to be someone he wasn't where he had to do questionable things in order to gain Spyral's trust. He was more put in a situation where the organization was doing morally dubious things and had to navigate that knowing they were aware of it. Which isn't that different than what he typically does as Nightwing.

So them forcing Dick to kill doesn't really make sense given the context because they knew he wouldn't do it and didn't care if he did. They recruited him knowing he was Nightwing and worked with Batman and thought they could use him and his skills.

No his book isn’t selling better, but the gap has closed since their respective change in directions. Though Dick has moved twice as much product. Not that it matters. The current Bat office sees Nightwing as lesser. They could give a shit about Dick’s fanbase. You certainly didn’t see them commissioning spiffy new designs to help his “new direction”, they never struggle to keep creators on Jason’s book, and they even went to Lobdell for Nightwing to half write in his spare time. If we can even call it that. Dick’s fanbase does not matter. That’s pretty crystal clear at this point.

Which is why I find it funny that there are some that still think it was Dick’s fanbase that had something to do with the ending of Grayson.

Btw some might also want to take a look at where Lobdell and Jason’s sales were, at that same time compared to Grayson.

Well it is also telling that Red Hood is also a book that has creators that still go back to it and speak lovingly of it. Lobdell obviously loves the property but you have other creators like Soy or a Rocafort that feel very real attachments to it and the character, but you see none of that for the Nightwing book. Most creators that leave Nightwing leave feeling miserable and have no desire to come back because of all the shit they have to deal with.

[oasis1313]

DC is too busy sabotaging Nightwing. The fanbase has nothing to do with the end of Grayson; DC just wanted to resume the abuse.

[Ascended]

I still think that if the Bat office can't do anything with Nightwing, then Dick should move to Metropolis and join the Super-editors. Maybe spending some time under Uncle Clark's editorial umbrella would be good for him.

Odd, to consider the Super editors a better option, considering how long we had to suffer Berganza.

[WonderNight]

I still think that if the Bat office can't do anything with Nightwing, then Dick should move to Metropolis and join the Super-editors. Maybe spending some time under Uncle Clark's editorial umbrella would be good for him.

Odd, to consider the Super editors a better option, considering how long we had to suffer Berganza.

Well I said dick should leave the bat office, but most fans just laughed it off. I mean dick under a group that actually wants to push him? That's crazy talk! He needs all up under batman and the rest of the sidekicks.

[oasis1313]

I still think that if the Bat office can't do anything with Nightwing, then Dick should move to Metropolis and join the Super-editors. Maybe spending some time under Uncle Clark's editorial umbrella would be good for him.

Odd, to consider the Super editors a better option, considering how long we had to suffer Berganza.

Well, there's all those Wildstorm characters DC paid Jim Lee a very large fortune for just so he'd draw a cover for them on occasion. King and Seeley started out well using Dick as an intro character to hook readers for them. I found the latest Wildstorm book unreadable from the offset and don't even know if it's still being published. I'd love to see Dick lead a team with Caitlyn Fairchild on it, have him mach wits with Tao, trying to keep Grifter holstered.

[Aahz]

No his book isn’t selling better, but the gap has closed since their respective change in directions. Though Dick has moved twice as much product.

That's true for comics, but Jason seems to be a huge draw in other media. For injustice he was apparently the most requested character.

You certainly didn’t see them commissioning spiffy new designs to help his “new direction”

In the past Nightwingfans usually wanted the classic costume back, if they changed it.

[oasis1313]

In the past Nightwingfans usually wanted the classic costume back, if they changed it.

I think Dick's fans will go along with pretty much anything they feel to be in his favor. I welcomed "Grayson" and was sorry to see it end.

[Aahz]

Well it is also telling that Red Hood is also a book that has creators that still go back to it and speak lovingly of it. Lobdell obviously loves the property but you have other creators like Soy or a Rocafort that feel very real attachments to it and the character, but you see none of that for the Nightwing book. Most creators that leave Nightwing leave feeling miserable and have no desire to come back because of all the shit they have to deal with.

I think the difference is, that there have not been that many writers and artists (at least the ones who did large numbers of issues) for Red Hood than for Nightwing, so the few that are there have still an kind of iconic status for the fans.

And afaik RHatO was kind of the break out book for Soy and maybe also for Rocafort.

And there seem to be also alot of Nightwing fans among writers and artists.

[Godlike13]

That's true for comics, but Jason seems to be a huge draw in other media. For injustice he was apparently the most requested character.

Most requested character for game with a sea of characters already in the game, not that that isn’t cool. Dick on the other hand is just staring in 2 tv shows on their app. Not that it seems to matter.

In the past Nightwingfans usually wanted the classic costume back, if they changed it.

Oh, so that’s why they had one of the artist drawing him for that month just throw him in jeans and tea and roll his face in dirt. They don’t want to mess with his classic costume that we haven’t seen him with in like a decade. I keep forgeting they care so much about what Nightwing fans want.

[Rakiduam]

Most requested character for game with a sea of characters already in the game, not that that isn’t cool. Dick on the other hand is just staring in 2 tv shows on their app. Not that it seems to matter.

To be fair also staring the app is Doom Patrol and Stargirl.

Oh, so that’s why they had one of the artist drawing him for that month to just throw him in jeans and tea and roll his face in dirt. They don’t want to mess with his classic costume that we haven’t seen him in in like a decade. I keep forgeting they care so much about what Nightwing fans want.

Oh yes, Ric killed any illusion of DC caring what fans want.