Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[Zaresh]

That reminds a bit of that Batman and Sons webcomic.

This is the sort of thing people claim to want, but generally doesn't seem to sell. It's easy to want something you see in fan art, but when you're paying $5 for it, well the sales stagger. I love the small character moments but I don't think they can sell a book alone.

I honestly don't know what you can do to make Nightwing sell. I thought Bludhaven was a good idea in Dixon's run (though with a silly name) and bringing it back to re-establish him in Rebirth was a good idea. Giving him a new character as a love interest who wasn't Barbara/Kori was asking for trouble, though. Dick's love life is a Gordian knot best left unaddressed for a while. I would argue his most recent sidekick, Damian, is similar. He needs to be given a new direction that is independent of other characters, but Bludhaven seems burned.

Who knows? At least we can all agree Ric isn't the answer.

Hmmm, I got an idea.

Maybe burning Bludhaven would make for a murder mystery story people woild like. I mean, burning the city literally by the actions of some kind of arsonist with unclear motivations. It would both work with rebounding Dick with the city, getting to know it, interacting with characters to meet and deepen their relationship, and build up some kind of catharsis that brings Old Dick back. It doesn't meed to be too overdramatic (like see, nuking the city, or bombing his place or something); just open the story with some kind of oldstyle impact (an imposible fire that got killed a well known figure in the neightboorhood in a rather gruesome way, for example). That first impactful event would catch Dick's interest, and then the story slowly progreses. Could be that the fires are small, but all unlikely to have happened; could be that the city it's being flooded ironically; could be that there are various arsonists with several different, conflicted interests (economics, politics, religions: you name it); could be that in the end it's all because some alien artifact that manipulates people's minds; could be the pulling strings of some acquaintance of Dick that seems like a bad guy but in the end just make an unforgiving mistake that is getting people killed. I don't know, just build a murder mystery story from basics, from classics, and add a few random unusual-for-the-genre elements, and see how it all rolls. Maybe towards a grand finale with some part of the city burning to the ground while the characters reach their realizations and their apotheosis.

[Robanker]

Hmmm, I got an idea.

Maybe burning Bludhaven would make for a murder mystery story people woild like. I mean, burning the city literally by the actions of some kind of arsonist with unclear motivations. It would both work with rebounding Dick with the city, getting to know it, interacting with characters to meet and deepen their relationship, and build up some kind of catharsis that brings Old Dick back. It doesn't meed to be too overdramatic (like see, nuking the city, or bombing his place or something); just open the story with some kind of oldstyle impact (an imposible fire that got killed a well known figure in the neightboorhood in a rather gruesome way, for example). That first impactful event would catch Dick's interest, and then the story slowly progreses. Could be that the fires are small, but all unlikely to have happened; could be that the city it's being flooded ironically; could be that there are various arsonists with several different, conflicted interests (economics, politics, religions: you name it); could be that in the end it's all because some alien artifact that manipulates people's minds; could be the pulling strings of some acquaintance of Dick that seems like a bad guy but in the end just make an unforgiving mistake that is getting people killed. I don't know, just build a murder mystery story from basics, from classics, and add a few random unusual-for-the-genre elements, and see how it all rolls. Maybe towards a grand finale with some part of the city burning to the ground while the characters reach their realizations and their apotheosis.

I honestly really do like the idea of Bludhaven becoming something of a Neo Vegas/Casino town, but I just don't know if it's possible to use that city a third time. I feel a lot of Nightwing fans just want him to play the hits (some remix of leading the Titans, hooking up with a former paramour, setting up in Bludhaven and teaming with Damian) as opposed to a new direction. When re-establishing a character that makes sense, but which pieces to arrange is the mess.

Have him join the JSA as their newest instructor for younger members. He seems to be someone both generations could respect and who understands both himself. Unlike some other characters who bridge that gap (PG, for example, who I love but can't sell a book), he would also boost sales.

I honestly don't know what to do with him that would work anymore that isn't a rehash. I want to say just tell fun adventure stories mixed in with street crime, but is that enough to stem the tide of Dickfire and DickBabs?

[Zaresh]

I honestly really do like the idea of Bludhaven becoming something of a Neo Vegas/Casino town, but I just don't know if it's possible to use that city a third time. I feel a lot of Nightwing fans just want him to play the hits (some remix of leading the Titans, hooking up with a former paramour, setting up in Bludhaven and teaming with Damian) as opposed to a new direction. When re-establishing a character that makes sense, but which pieces to arrange is the mess.

Have him join the JSA as their newest instructor for younger members. He seems to be someone both generations could respect and who understands both himself. Unlike some other characters who bridge that gap (PG, for example, who I love but can't sell a book), he would also boost sales.

I honestly don't know what to do with him that would work anymore that isn't a rehash. I want to say just tell fun adventure stories mixed in with street crime, but is that enough to stem the tide of Dickfire and DickBabs?

Well, I used BH for my example because that's where his previous ties were during Rebirth, and where he has characters that he does know and are not the batfam. You could use NY too, but, does he have any connection there in the current canon? And I would want to cross out Gotham because there are a lot more places in the world. Not everything has to happen in that city.

Personally, I would try, again, a new pairing/love interest. Doesn't need to aim for a long lasting ship, but it's there to ground the character somehow and make him regain his own self somehow. I wouldn't use Babs or Kori for a very simple reason: whatever you do with them in NW's book, should have some sort of consequences in their own books. And we all know how well that works nowadays, which is, it rarely happens. Not to mention that it could open another can of worns: shipwars that could grow nasty.

[bearman]

I dont think the JSA is a bad option...if DC is not going to pursue the spy angle.
Years ago, he was hanging with the JSA, and I kind of expected him to join then.

[Restingvoice]

That reminds a bit of that Batman and Sons webcomic.

This is the sort of thing people claim to want, but generally doesn't seem to sell. It's easy to want something you see in fan art, but when you're paying $5 for it, well the sales stagger. I love the small character moments but I don't think they can sell a book alone.

The closest thing we got to a daily life Batfam title is Li'l Gotham. A lot of people like it, but it's a limited series, so I can't really say if it can maintain momentum for long.

Another example would be the Gotham Academy, where the main attraction is the cast interaction.

Actually, I don't need to go that far. Tomasi's Batman and Robin and Super Sons are another example of that. They still have that superhero conflict, but the main plot is the characters relationship development. Those are probably the best example we have where the main attraction is the character dynamic but still have exciting action scenes for anyone wanting standard superhero fare.

Detective Comics by Tynion is another step after that. This one leans more to regular superhero comic. The bulk of it is Gotham-endangering plot, but there are also character interactions that those fans like.

All of these titles are fan favorites, so they don't have to be all about the family, as long as the family relation is still heavily featured alongside the superhero part of the story.

Back to Nightwing, I think he benefits from this kind of storytelling, since the issue where Damian and Wally appeared stopped the sales from dropping.

[Robanker]

I agree that those can be popular when included, my concern is when it's the primary focus of the book, people will think nothing is really happening and it's fluff.

I live for character moments, but you do need a plot to resolve and something up challenge our heroes.

[Vordan]

I’d have Dick join the new spy organization that’s sure to spin out of Event Leviathan as DC’s SHIELD. Have it be HQ in Bludhaven so Dick still has a reason to visit the city, but he can also have lots of international adventures with a job that’s actually relevant to his superhero life while still providing conflict just like Spyral did. He can be the JL’s mole in the organization to keep an eye on it or lone wolf joining it for a sense of direction Post-Ric.

[Badou]

Maybe DC should just quit tying to force Bludhaven into his stories since it is such a dull setting. Like the only good I can see that could come out of this Ric garbage is when Dick comes back and stops being Ric he can leave Bludhaven for good and let the Nightwing cops protect it instead. Then that anchor around his neck is finally gone and he doesn't have to worry about it anymore. I mean I don't even think Bludhaven is even worth burning down because no one would really care. They burned down Haly's Circus and no one cared about that either and Bludhaven is even more useless than Haly's. But I know this won't happen and Dick is unfortunately handcuffed to Bludhaven in DC's eyes.

[Robanker]

I meant burned as a concept instead of literally, but that does make me wonder if actually burning it down could lead to Nightwing having to actually rebuild his city. This would enable a new creative team to fully re-establish it and hopefully find a hook that makes it work.

I am eternally mystified how Chuck Dixon made all this look easy when he had his run.

[jules]

I meant burned as a concept instead of literally, but that does make me wonder if actually burning it down could lead to Nightwing having to actually rebuild his city. This would enable a new creative team to fully re-establish it and hopefully find a hook that makes it work.

I am eternally mystified how Chuck Dixon made all this look easy when he had his run.

I found Bludhaven dull as ditchwater with a stupid name when Dixon was writing it too. The city didn’t have much of a character beyond Gotham-wannabe - I prefer Seeley’s Atlantic City-esque reimagining of it - but I think the Bludhaven-focused part of Dixon’s run was wrapped more around the conflict Nightwing had with both Torque and Blockbuster, and Dick’s attempts to counter the extreme corruption in its police department from the inside by joining up. That latter part is a story that couldn’t have been told as easily in Gotham, because you’d have had to contain it to a single precinct or get Gordon, Bullock, Montoya and co out of the way first, but other than that there was no particular reason why Dick couldn’t have just bought himself any department building in Gotham as a base of operations. Half the time he just jumped on his bike and drove to Gotham to show up for a Bat-crossover anyway.

Of course, that means that a sizeable chunk of Dixon’s Nightwing run didn’t exile him from the family or to this separate city. He wasn’t a character cut off from what everyone else was doing, not least because Dixon was writing half the other Bat-books at the time anyway and crossed over the characters all the time. So if Bludhaven itself wasn’t inspiring to the reader, they only had to wait for the next plague or earthquake to roll around and Dick would be back in Gotham for a few months.

[Godlike13]

It been blown up and completely rebuilt and re-established. But all of it went out the window with the creator musical chairs after Seeley wanted out, and now it has seemingly reverted back into Dixon’s traditional Gotham-esque Bludhaven somehow. It’s one of the reasons I don’t like Monneyham’s art on the title. His Bludhaven doesn’t resemble the Bludhaven we were introduced to with Rebirth at all.

[Robanker]

I found Bludhaven dull as ditchwater with a stupid name when Dixon was writing it too. The city didn’t have much of a character beyond Gotham-wannabe - I prefer Seeley’s Atlantic City-esque reimagining of it - but I think the Bludhaven-focused part of Dixon’s run was wrapped more around the conflict Nightwing had with both Torque and Blockbuster, and Dick’s attempts to counter the extreme corruption in its police department from the inside by joining up. That latter part is a story that couldn’t have been told as easily in Gotham, because you’d have had to contain it to a single precinct or get Gordon, Bullock, Montoya and co out of the way first, but other than that there was no particular reason why Dick couldn’t have just bought himself any department building in Gotham as a base of operations. Half the time he just jumped on his bike and drove to Gotham to show up for a Bat-crossover anyway.

Of course, that means that a sizeable chunk of Dixon’s Nightwing run didn’t exile him from the family or to this separate city. He wasn’t a character cut off from what everyone else was doing, not least because Dixon was writing half the other Bat-books at the time anyway and crossed over the characters all the time. So if Bludhaven itself wasn’t inspiring to the reader, they only had to wait for the next plague or earthquake to roll around and Dick would be back in Gotham for a few months.

I agree insofar as Seeley's approach being more interesting and the name being silly, but you kind of proved my point that Dixon made it work. Bludhaven had things going on. Dick had multiple plot threads to resolve tied to the city and his status quo didn't prevent him from exploring the other parts of his character. Bludhaven served to enrich his story and gave him enough distance from Batman that the reader didn't have to ask why Bruce, Gordon and the like weren't around.

It doesn't have to be as unique as Gotham or Metropolis. I'm not sure any fictional city ever will, not even Keystone, Central or Star City. It just needs to provide opportunities, a tone and some space from the rest of the DCU. I would argue Dixon was able to accomplish that in his run.

Returning a third time to it is probably asking too much, but I'm unsure how to reuse it if the Seeley approach didn't take. He'll never get out of Bruce's shadow in Gotham and DC/the fans won't accept his own city, so what then? Settle on a real one like Chicago? Move into Star? Opal? Metropolis of all places?

[byrd156]

I agree insofar as Seeley's approach being more interesting and the name being silly, but you kind of proved my point that Dixon made it work. Bludhaven had things going on. Dick had multiple plot threads to resolve tied to the city and his status quo didn't prevent him from exploring the other parts of his character. Bludhaven served to enrich his story and gave him enough distance from Batman that the reader didn't have to ask why Bruce, Gordon and the like weren't around.

It doesn't have to be as unique as Gotham or Metropolis. I'm not sure any fictional city ever will, not even Keystone, Central or Star City. It just needs to provide opportunities, a tone and some space from the rest of the DCU. I would argue Dixon was able to accomplish that in his run.

Returning a third time to it is probably asking too much, but I'm unsure how to reuse it if the Seeley approach didn't take. He'll never get out of Bruce's shadow in Gotham and DC/the fans won't accept his own city, so what then? Settle on a real one like Chicago? Move into Star? Opal? Metropolis of all places?

The way Dixon used Bludhaven was perfect in my eyes. It was the last time a city felt unique that didn't belong to Superman or Batman.

[dropkickjake]

The way Dixon used Bludhaven was perfect in my eyes. It was the last time a city felt unique that didn't belong to Superman or Batman.

I'm not sure I can agree that it felt unique. It worked for what it was, though.

[Pohzee]

Dick’s HiC confessional was some boosh. I’m certain it would have been more apt had he and Damian’s roles been switched.