Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[Pohzee]

Sotomayor still colored him white as snow during BtB.

And Seeley best described him as a "mutt."

[Godlike13]

The court is only just now coming back after how long? Which story relies so heavily on that heritage? Better than Batman? If anything it relies more-so on the fact that Raptor was in love with his mother, the Romani part could be dropped and still make it the same story. Circus folk aren't exactly rich so Raptor's hatred for people like Bruce still works too.

When was the last time Cobb was around with Dick? I feel like the Court was a big thing DC wanted to make happen at the start of the New 52 and animated movies. Outside of that and Batman they don't feel like a big deal.

That’s not true, Raptor’s whole issue with Dick is that he is lost to his heritage. So no it couldn’t be dropped and still make for the same story. Raptor would need new motivation then if the Romani part was dropped. Which would be a shame, cause I think Seeley was quite clever to take this Romani aspect that was introduced, yet has no real visual or character influence on the character, and use in a way that explains why that is.

[byrd156]

It will be a breath of fresh air after this this crap
I was just curious cuz some people really thin dick is a victim of whitewashing

Dick has always been white, anyone who says he's been whitewashed is one of those tumblr obsessed headcanon people. Dick to them is a hot dude with a nice ass who always eats cereal and just loves his little bros.

Again having some Romani blood has done nothing for him so far, if they are going to bring it up actually use it. I personally always wanted to see the English side of him explored more, it would give him even more of a connection with Alfred and Knight & Squire. I'm not saying get rid of it or ignore it, I just find it annoying when it's brought up as such an integral part of the character when that's never really been the case outside of Devin Grayson and the one Seeley arc. (And one mention in the Grayson annual)

[Pohzee]

I like Seeley's take where he seems not to wrapped up in his own sense of ethnic identity and doesn't give it much thought or influence.

I think its pretty fitting to the character.

[byrd156]

That’s not true, Raptor’s whole issue with Dick is that he is lost to his heritage. So no it couldn’t be dropped and still make for the same story. Raptor would need new motivation then if the Romani part was dropped.

Like I said in my post the circus background itself with Raptor still works whether Dick's Romani or not. Raptor's main issues were wealth and a sense that Dick abandoned the people that loved him ie. the circus. They weren't exactly rich in money but they were in family, Raptor seeing Dick (also as a representation of Mary) leave the circus plus with Mary's death is enough to send him over the edge. I'm rereading Better Than Batman and rise of Raptor right now to make sure I know what I'm talking about. Being Romani is more important for Raptor than it is for Dick. Raptor has the Romani legend name for his gauntlet Suyolak, the hatred for the rich, and the love for the forgotten people like refugees. Raptor has a whole modern Robin Hood vibe going on and hating capitalism and branding that he brings up all the time. I feel like he and Green Arrow would make for an interesting team-up.

Dick's mother is what's important for Raptor not Dick being Romani. Raptor is basically Snape from Harry Potter, he loved the mom who he never got to be with and died. The son is basically a representation of the love and son he'll never have, so he takes out his frustrations by trying to care for and teach that son. Again I'm not against the idea of Dick having Romani blood or even the elements that are used in Better than Batman and Rise of Raptor but they aren't essential to Dick. These stories can still be very much the same, I really enjoy the use and references to the circus in these arcs. I'm glad we are talking about these because reading these again were such a joy to read.

[Badou]

That’s not true, Raptor’s whole issue with Dick is that he is lost to his heritage. So no it couldn’t be dropped and still make for the same story. Raptor would need new motivation then if the Romani part was dropped. Which would be a shame, cause I think Seeley was quite clever to take this Romani aspect that was introduced, yet has no real visual or character influence on the character, and use in a way that explains why that is.

I have to agree with byrd. Raptor's main conflict was with Dick's mother. He was in love with her and felt he should have been the one to take in Dick after his parents died, not the super rich Bruce Wayne. The Romani stuff adds some other layers but the core story still works without the Romani aspects. The class seperation, the Robin Hood stuff, and the core identity of both being from the circus and him feeling like Dick abandoned that life all still work without the Romani parts.

[byrd156]

I have to agree with byrd. Raptor's main conflict was with Dick's mother. He was in love with her and felt he should have been the one to take in Dick after his parents died, not the super rich Bruce Wayne. The Romani stuff adds some other layers but the core story still works without the Romani aspects. The class seperation, the Robin Hood stuff, and the core identity of both being from the circus and him feeling like Dick abandoned that life all still work without the Romani parts.

Thank you, you simplified that a whole hell of a lot better than I did.

Like I keep saying I'm fine with the Romani stuff and I appreciate what Seeley did with it, it just needs more effort and more stories to be done with it before it earns this idea that it's an important part of Dick's character.

[Godlike13]

Fair enough.

[Badou]

Thank you, you simplified that a whole hell of a lot better than I did.

Like I keep saying I'm fine with the Romani stuff and I appreciate what Seeley did with it, it just needs more effort and more stories to be done with it before it earns this idea that it's an important part of Dick's character.

I feel the same. I don't mind the Romani addition, but it should never be a major trait of the character. It should never be something Dick identifies as or hold as some important aspect to his upbringing. That would feel so fake to me. If it gets retconned again I don't really care because it is low on the list of things that define his history in my opinion. Maybe with time it will become more important but right now I'm kind of indifferent towards it as long as it doesn't feel super invasive.

[byrd156]

I feel the same. I don't mind the Romani addition, but it should never be a major trait of the character. It should never be something Dick identifies as or hold as some important aspect to his upbringing. That would feel so fake to me. If it gets retconned again I don't really care because it is low on the list of things that define his history in my opinion. Maybe with time it will become more important but right now I'm kind of indifferent towards it as long as it doesn't feel super invasive.

Dick having English in him probably on his dad's side now was something I always wanted to see. Dick exploring England with castles and medieval themes and stuff seems perfect. Tie it back in with Robin Hood, his inspiration, that's something that has been there enough to warrant some kind of story. I also really want to see Knight and Squire again, they really fit well with Dick.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Also in his initial creation Dick was a representation of the initial target market of comic books which were 8 to 15 Y/O white kids so him being Romani would have never been applied and the retcon was used by Devin Grayson more to sexualize Nightwing rather than make him a representation of Romani culture. Using the Circus is stereotypical and he gets adopted by a White east USA Rich Heir Of Old Money. Dick’s story is too old and unique to be used as a representation of Romani people and their struggles because he has lived a majority of his life with the highest privilege and Haly’s Circus is an American Circus. New Characters would be better because you can have a origin and life that truly represents a minority group like Jessica Cruz, Miles Morales, Kamala etc.

[Aahz]

The Romani Part was imo added way to late to the character to ever really matter.

By the time it was mentioned the first time Dick was allready around for 60 years full of stories.

[byrd156]

The Romani Part was imo added way to late to the character to ever really matter.

By the time it was mentioned the first time Dick was allready around for 60 years full of stories.

Yeah I think Seeley squeezed as much as he could out of it with Better Than Batman and Rise of Raptor. The idea of Dick never having that culture made for a good story but that's as far as you can really go with it. Everyone else that Dick could explore and discover it for the first time is already dead or tried to manipulate him. I think having Raptor as a villain with that connection is as good as it'll get.

Also go reread those stories right now and ignore this Ric garbage, it was very refreshing and super quality stuff.

[Restingvoice]

Yes, but not if you squint. John was parent of Romani lineage originally, but the CoO story retconned him into descent from Gotham. Seeley retconned it so that it was Dick's mother of Romani heritage instead. Although I believe he said that it was still open that John could still have some Romani in him somewhere.

Actually in the Grayson secret origin issue, they refer to him as Giovanni "John" Grayson, so he likely has it from both sides now.

I didn't know Devin made him Romani from his dad's side. I thought John Giovanni was the first time it's mentioned, so maybe the Grayson Secret Origin was their attempt to bring it back, but then they realized it contradicts Court of Owls so Seeley made it his mother.

Honestly, before Mary became Marie, I just thought he got it from his grandmother's side

Great Grandfater William Cobb and Grandfather The First Gray Son are from Gotham
John Giovanni Grayson the father got his name from somewhere who is not the great grandfather and grandfather
So it must be the grandmother

No contradiction

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

I always kinda liked that Dick's racial identity is kind of hard to place now since Dick himself has never cared lol.

His dad's name is Giovanni, even though his own grandfather and grandmother were English and from Gotham. On the other hand, Seeley actually fleshed out Mary out and made her out to be the more interesting parent, and her background is even more mysterious beyond her being from France and having Romani blood.

Raptor is easily my favourite Nightwing villain at this point, and one of the few important enough to bring to other media (for example, nobody is going to care about Torque or Shrike or something in 2019), which is why the Romani thing matters imo. It makes Raptor into a more interesting character, it develops Mary as Marie a bit, and takes away focus from the Owls stuff for Dick. One of my favourite things about the start of the Rebirth run was how we were being led to believe that the Owls would be integral again to Dick, when really it turned out Dick's circus background and Mary were the most important to the story.

It shouldn't be counted as a major element of Dick's character of course, but I think it's vital to introducing Raptor.