Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[Godlike13]

Dixon’s Nightwing, Morrison’s B&R, King/Seeley’s Grayson.

[Tzigone]

It's a mix between the Wolfman NTT, up to when the marriage to Kori went off the rails, and Dixon's Nightwing solo.

Dixon did some great stuff building a setting for Dick that was his own. I know everyone here hates Bludhaven, and after the way DC has handled things since Infinite Crisis I get why. And I agree that Dick's not the kind of hero who'd stick to one city. But Dixon gave Dick a setting, a rogues gallery, and a love interest all his own.

Those are my favorite eras, too. I was acturally surprised at the hate Bludhaven gets on this board (as surprised as I was for the liking of '90s Tim and Kon - which I prefer). I don't get why anyone thinks Dick isn't the kind of hero that wouldn't stick to one city, though. He stayed in Gotham with no real interest in moving as a child. Had no problem with location in college, was in New York for years, and then (he said) finally found his place in Bludhaven. A home. I don't care for mobile heroes or heroes with no steady supporting cast, myself. I like Dixon's Robin and Nightwing better than Birds of Prey, and one of the reasons was they usually stayed in the same city. Tim went off to Europe and I couldn't wait for him to get home.

[Ascended]

Those are my favorite eras, too. I was acturally surprised at the hate Bludhaven gets on this board (as surprised as I was for the liking of '90s Tim and Kon - which I prefer). I don't get why anyone thinks Dick isn't the kind of hero that wouldn't stick to one city, though. He stayed in Gotham with no real interest in moving as a child. Had no problem with location in college, was in New York for years, and then (he said) finally found his place in Bludhaven. A home. I don't care for mobile heroes or heroes with no steady supporting cast, myself. I like Dixon's Robin and Nightwing better than Birds of Prey, and one of the reasons was they usually stayed in the same city. Tim went off to Europe and I couldn't wait for him to get home.

For me, it's something I've started thinking only in the last few years. And part of it is informed by choices made in DC's offices, not by the character himself.

So, he grows up in a travelling circus, which provides some precedent for him having some wanderlust. Then there were a lot of Silver Age stories where he goes off on crazy adventures beyond Gotham, plus a lot of travelling with the Titans and Spyral. And over the last ten-ish years he's lived in Gotham, Chicago, New York, Bludhaven, moved away from and then returned to some of those places, and I think at least one or two other cities. On top of having a lot of globe trotting adventures too.

And, for me (not speaking for others) his constant changing of jobs and roles influences this view too. He's been a cop, a bartender, a gym owner, a circus owner, I think he was a model briefly.......he was Batman, he was a spy, he was Nightwing......the guy is constantly changing things up, taking new jobs, sorta re-inventing himself. And this is all stuff that comes from DC trying new directions and ideas and not necessarily something that came from the character himself, but the end result is a Dick Grayson who can't seem to stand still. And when someone here mentioned this, it kinda clicked and I was like "Yeah, Dick *is* always moving around, trying new things.....him having some wanderlust does seem fitting." It's basically taking DC's inconsistency with him, and making it work to inform, rather than contradict, who he is.

[Jackalope89]

For me, it's something I've started thinking only in the last few years. And part of it is informed by choices made in DC's offices, not by the character himself.

So, he grows up in a travelling circus, which provides some precedent for him having some wanderlust. Then there were a lot of Silver Age stories where he goes off on crazy adventures beyond Gotham, plus a lot of travelling with the Titans and Spyral. And over the last ten-ish years he's lived in Gotham, Chicago, New York, Bludhaven, moved away from and then returned to some of those places, and I think at least one or two other cities. On top of having a lot of globe trotting adventures too.

And, for me (not speaking for others) his constant changing of jobs and roles influences this view too. He's been a cop, a bartender, a gym owner, a circus owner, I think he was a model briefly.......he was Batman, he was a spy, he was Nightwing......the guy is constantly changing things up, taking new jobs, sorta re-inventing himself. And this is all stuff that comes from DC trying new directions and ideas and not necessarily something that came from the character himself, but the end result is a Dick Grayson who can't seem to stand still. And when someone here mentioned this, it kinda clicked and I was like "Yeah, Dick *is* always moving around, trying new things.....him having some wanderlust does seem fitting." It's basically taking DC's inconsistency with him, and making it work to inform, rather than contradict, who he is.

Greg Weisman got it right with his version of Dick in Young Justice; he travels all over the place, calling in favors when he needs them, righting wrongs, and catching up with old friends while still helping out younger heroes.

[Tzigone]

And, for me (not speaking for others) his constant changing of jobs and roles influences this view too. He's been a cop, a bartender, a gym owner, a circus owner, I think he was a model briefly.......he was Batman, he was a spy, he was Nightwing......the guy is constantly changing things up, taking new jobs, sorta re-inventing himself. And this is all stuff that comes from DC trying new directions and ideas and not necessarily something that came from the character himself,

That last part is it to me. Unlike those who feel all those things contribute to the character, I think he's gone off the rails and been fairly consistently diminished and downgraded since around 2000 and that his inability to settle (location wise or in relationships) is indicative of a sort of immaturity that has been foisted on a character that was "grown up in the room immature adults" at 19. I prefer to live in the past. But it's typical - there are other characters I'm still in pre-crisis-land with in my headcanon. But I acknowledge headcanon isn't canon.

[Restingvoice]

Those are my favorite eras, too. I was acturally surprised at the hate Bludhaven gets on this board (as surprised as I was for the liking of '90s Tim and Kon - which I prefer). I don't get why anyone thinks Dick isn't the kind of hero that wouldn't stick to one city, though. He stayed in Gotham with no real interest in moving as a child. Had no problem with location in college, was in New York for years, and then (he said) finally found his place in Bludhaven. A home. I don't care for mobile heroes or heroes with no steady supporting cast, myself. I like Dixon's Robin and Nightwing better than Birds of Prey, and one of the reasons was they usually stayed in the same city. Tim went off to Europe and I couldn't wait for him to get home.

It's more of the visual tone and overall impression that I don't like. The 90s Bludhaven gives me the impression of Batman Year One. It fits Miller's approach for Batman, but I didn't personally like it even for Batman so I'm not interested to read that again for Dick.

I like the supporting cast from what I've seen. Clancy and Rossbach, for example.

I also like that it gives the vibe of a young adult trying to survive in the world for the first time. Let's say NTT is his college years, Bludhaven is his YA years.

The Rebirth version has a visual I prefer for a hero that's supposed to be a mix of Batman and Superman in name and personality. Fun outside dark inside.

Problem is, by this point, Dick Grayson has become such a bigger hero. He's been Batman, a Leaguer, an international secret agent, and the first arc of Rebirth has him taking down an international Court of Owls, but then it's back to a small apartment in Bludhaven trying to figure out his place in his world. No. He shouldn't be back to his YA years anymore.

So this is more of a problem with DC reset button than Bludhaven itself. When Seeley said his secret agent days is him in college and Bludhaven is post-college in an interview I was already muttering oh no

He can stay in Bludhaven if he likes, just not as a YA trying to survive in the world. He's done that. Let him be a manager of Haley's Circus or something.

[Jackalope89]

That last part is it to me. Unlike those who feel all those things contribute to the character, I think he's gone off the rails and been fairly consistently diminished and downgraded since around 2000 and that his inability to settle (location wise or in relationships) is indicative of a sort of immaturity that has been foisted on a character that was "grown up in the room immature adults" at 19. I prefer to live in the past. But it's typical - there are other characters I'm still in pre-crisis-land with in my headcanon. But I acknowledge headcanon isn't canon.

Location? Eh, some people are simply nomadic. And growing up in a traveling circus and then being a founding member of the Titans, he's going to move around a lot.
But I do agree on the relationship part though. And honestly, I like the concept of Mar'i Grayson (not as a LI to Damian, but as a family member). So, him and Star would be together for me.

[Tzigone]

Location? Eh, some people are simply nomadic. And growing up in a traveling circus and then being a founding member of the Titans, he's going to move around a lot.
But I do agree on the relationship part though.

But the Titans weren't nomadic. At least, not in what I think was their best years. And there's no particular reason moving around in childhood would make one want to move around in adulthood. Especially since then, he kept his core support group (his parents, and to a lesser extent other circus workers) with him when he moved, which doesn't really work with a single guy moving around.

Problem is, by this point, Dick Grayson has become such a bigger hero. He's been Batman, a Leaguer, an international secret agent, and the first arc of Rebirth has him taking down an international Court of Owls, but then it's back to a small apartment in Bludhaven trying to figure out his place in his world. No. He shouldn't be back to his YA years anymore.

I think he should have stayed in Bludhaven all along and that he'd already figured out his place in the world. But, alas, DC did not agree with me.

I don't like the de-aging in N52. I agree he shouldn't be floundering, trying to find his place in the world. DC just won't let him really, truly be a full-fledged adult because that ages Batman. It's a tragedy. He's not the only one afflicted, but that doesn't make it any less annoying. And he really, really needs to be able to get over certain issues he has with Bruce and his need to prove himself. Not that that's happening right now, but it's one DC likes to revisit a lot instead of letting him realize that (at least at one point in history) he is highly regarded and respected by the entire superhero community as a fighter, detective and leader. Before the airhead days, anyway (again, not consistent characterization, but it's been there). It was something he'd seemingly grown past, but then COIE came along and re-wrote their relationship (especially how he became Nightwing) and it popped up again, and it was fine at 19, but at 25, it's tired. But DC won't let him be 25+, either. And this is not the thread to talk about what's happened with Bruce's character since COIE (even though I acknowledge it very successful, business-wise), so I'll stop now.

[nhienphan2808]

I love Golden Age Dick and everything following that narrative like NTT and non-Morrison Dickbats, including 88-94 Dick. Quite after NTT but not yet Batfam, prodigal-ish, still trying to figure things out and trying to forgive Bruce is an overlooked and underrated era for him, it’s my favorite.

[Restingvoice]

I think he should have stayed in Bludhaven all along and that he'd already figured out his place in the world. But, alas, DC did not agree with me.

I don't like the de-aging in N52. I agree he shouldn't be floundering, trying to find his place in the world. DC just won't let him really, truly be a full-fledged adult because that ages Batman. It's a tragedy. He's not the only one afflicted, but that doesn't make it any less annoying. And he really, really needs to be able to get over certain issues he has with Bruce and his need to prove himself. Not that that's happening right now, but it's one DC likes to revisit a lot instead of letting him realize that (at least at one point in history) he is highly regarded and respected by the entire superhero community as a fighter, detective and leader. Before the airhead days, anyway (again, not consistent characterization, but it's been there). It was something he'd seemingly grown past, but then COIE came along and re-wrote their relationship (especially how he became Nightwing) and it popped up again, and it was fine at 19, but at 25, it's tired. But DC won't let him be 25+, either. And this is not the thread to talk about what's happened with Bruce's character since COIE (even though I acknowledge it very successful, business-wise), so I'll stop now.

Yeah. I realized, not too long ago, that DC's status quo for Nightwing is "getting out of the shadow of the bat". A permanent YA.

Jason and Babs are YA too, but Jason's status quo is "not following the family code" and Babs is "Batman for teen girls" with their own pros and cons.

[Restingvoice]

One thing I always forgot to ask. After Bludhaven was destroyed by Chemo, after Infinite Crisis, after Dick recovered from Alexander Luthor's fatal attack, did he ever go back there to try and recover the city or was it completely flattened with no sign of life?

[Godlike13]

He moved to New York.

[Restingvoice]

I know that. My question was the city ever salvageable or if anyone, including Dick, tried to rebuild it?

[Ascended]

Greg Weisman got it right with his version of Dick in Young Justice; he travels all over the place, calling in favors when he needs them, righting wrongs, and catching up with old friends while still helping out younger heroes.

Weisman just needs to be given control of all things DC all the time.

That last part is it to me. Unlike those who feel all those things contribute to the character, I think he's gone off the rails and been fairly consistently diminished and downgraded since around 2000 and that his inability to settle (location wise or in relationships) is indicative of a sort of immaturity that has been foisted on a character that was "grown up in the room immature adults" at 19. I prefer to live in the past. But it's typical - there are other characters I'm still in pre-crisis-land with in my headcanon. But I acknowledge headcanon isn't canon.

Oh, I definitely think he's gone off the rails and DC doesn't know what to do with him, even when they're not trying to actively ruin him. But he's traveled a lot in recent years and has history of traveling as a kid in the circus, so I'm fine with the idea of Dick being a globe trotter. I dont see it as a sign of immaturity, it's just that the guy loves seeing new places and new things. I *do* want him to have a home city to return to, but I quite like Dick Grayson: wandering hero. For one thing, it helps separate him and distinguish him from Bruce a little, and since Dick returned to the Batman editorial office there hasn't been enough of that. I get you on the pre-Crisis mindset, I'm like that with some characters too (JSA, Superman, others), but the canon itself now supports a traveling Nightwing and I just happen to be down with the idea.

One thing I always forgot to ask. After Bludhaven was destroyed by Chemo, after Infinite Crisis, after Dick recovered from Alexander Luthor's fatal attack, did he ever go back there to try and recover the city or was it completely flattened with no sign of life?

I *think* there was a brief scene where Dick went back. I believe there were groups like the DEO and Atomic Knights who were trying to clean up the radiation and everything (this would have been after Final Crisis maybe?) and Dick was basically "Well, nothing I can do here, these guys got it and I don't do hazmat." And that was it.

And I might even be imagining that much. Pretty disappointing given that he had lived there for years by that point and had friends who died in the blast.

[Restingvoice]

I *think* there was a brief scene where Dick went back. I believe there were groups like the DEO and Atomic Knights who were trying to clean up the radiation and everything (this would have been after Final Crisis maybe?) and Dick was basically "Well, nothing I can do here, these guys got it and I don't do hazmat." And that was it.

And I might even be imagining that much. Pretty disappointing given that he had lived there for years by that point and had friends who died in the blast.

That. That was the confirmation I want. I get the feeling it's something like that.

Basically what I was thinking when I ask that question is the difference between No Man's Land and Infinite Crisis. How much Gotham means to Bruce and Bludhaven means to Dick. Both inside the narrative and by DC as a company themselves.

Well, the fact that it was unceremoniously destroyed despite all the years of world-building given into it in an unrelated event instead of making it about the town and the hero was already a huge flag, but the way the aftermath is handled just seals the deal.

Despite Nightwing was saved from Infinite Crisis execution, it didn't matter to DC that he lost the town, friends and supporting cast, and despite bringing it back on Rebirth, I still don't see a sign that Bludhaven or Nightwing matters to DC now