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  1. #3016
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    You , no Jurgens of course. It’s pretty much the only thing he says about his run.
    Lol sorry the replies were kinda wonky.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  2. #3017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    The League in Young Justice doesn't make the OG team feel inferior or second string because they're not second strings. They're the main characters. The story is about them. Of course, they don't treat them that way. The League is the supporting cast.

    On the other hand, the League in the comic can afford to be an ass because they're the focus, the main characters, events revolve around them. People don't have to read Titans to know what's happening in DCU at large but they need to read the League. So they can do whatever they want with Titans.
    Their the main character only in this narrative and perspective
    The world knows only the JL the team is primarily black operations

  3. #3018
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Would you be motivated to write Nightwing when you have to write a bunch of no-names as Nightwing, and Dick isn't even Dick?
    I think if we nixxed the whole Ric hanging out at the Prodigal bar (good joke), the cab stuff, the baldness, and the apparent homelessness this would be a bit more tolerable. This whole arc feels like a 90s version of Taxi Driver without any of the nuance or atmosphere. Focus in on Dick and Babs, maybe cutting a couple Nightwings and giving them more of a dynamic with Dick earlier on and giving Scarecrow a better through-line would be more enjoyable. If I had to follow Lobdell, I think it would be a bit rough but I would do it in a heartbeat, granted I couldn't do this pitch below but I think I could take elements into some version of it.

    If I were writing this and I had to use the amnesia and Nightwings without following Lobdell I would start the arc with the night Dick was shot. Laying in the rain, bleeding out. Flash forward to Bludhaven a few weeks/months/whatever. Everyone is giving Dick a little time to heal before telling him he's a superhero. I feel like the entire first issue or most of the first issue would be Dick laying in a hospital bed with various heroes sitting at his bedside talking to his unconscious/unresponsive body. From the Titans to Superman to Bruce and so on. I think it would be pretty heart wrenching to see Donna and Garth being the only two original sidekicks left trying to support their friend or talk about what happened to Wally and Roy with Dick who may or may not be able to hear them.

    Now we re-establish Dick after he wakes up, this is him at his worst point in the story. He's just been shot and doesn't feel himself. Maybe a little angry and confused, he's trying to distance himself from everyone who are now strangers to him. He's hanging around Bludhaven but doesn't know why other than habit. He meets up with Babs whom he can't seem to brush off and tries to help him through this newfound trauma until she reveals he's a hero. Naturally this is a huge shock to him but eventually he accepts that.

    We see Babs encourage him; he works up to going through the gadgets, wearing the costume, and then running around on rooftops. Almost like a kid learning about superheroes for the first time. When he's starting to traverse the city with Batgirl he's doing well for the first few buildings but then suddenly experiences extreme vertigo and overwhelming fear. He has a pretty bad fall that alerts some nearby cops, Babs rushes him back to the metro hideout leaving a trail of blood as they are chased by the cops. They disappear into the hideout and the cops (Future Nightwings) are suspicious of the area. Dick's fear is instantly recognizable to Babs since it's a reaction from Scarecrow's fear toxin. Dick is rushed back to Gotham for testing and the bullet did some additional damage to Dick that no one caught at first. When his adrenaline starts pumping he has small bouts of fear toxin rush through his system from an experimental gas Scarecrow used years ago that seemingly didn't work on Dick causing Scarecrow to hate Dick. The brain damage caused by the bullet finally activated the fear toxin inside. (This is some BS comic science but it makes as much sense as the stuff we actually got. ) This news gets worse for Dick since the only way it could be cured is if they have one created by the Scarecrow who has been laying low since his last escape from Arkham.

    Dick decides this is getting to be too much for him and decides to leave. Bruce and the Bat-family work on looking for Scarecrow while Dick returns to Bludhaven trying to work through the fear himself. Trying to walk a highwire that he keeps lowering and lowering. He manages to balance on a sidewalk curb for a bit, claiming a small victory. Meanwhile a couple of those cops from earlier investigate the metro station and find Nightwing's hideout. Since Dick hasn't been active as Nightwing crime has gone up in Bludhaven and he hasn't been maintaining his hideout or security of said hideout so it's easy to access. (I think this while a little convenient but it is a lot better than Dick just torching it.) The cops decide to take the equipment for themselves and think that they could do a better job.

    The Nightwings in this version of the story are going to be walking reasons why Dick can only be Nightwing and how becoming a street hero is difficult/deadly without proper training. Each one representing aspects of Dick from certain eras. (Discowing being young and more fun, 90s being gritty and mean, etc.) There would be 5 Nightwings instead of the 4 we have. The cops all pick their costumes (Discowing, 90s yellow V, classic blue and black, Red New 52, and Chicago Red finger stripes.) The blue Rebirth suit is still in Dick's possession in his apartment after his fall. So begins the Reign of the Supermen, I mean the Nightwings! The cops do well on their first few nights out, busting up some crime that they couldn't otherwise do in their normal jobs. Things soon turn south after busting up an illegal chemical deal being done for the Scarecrow in the Bludhaven harbor. The 5 Nightwings take him on in a fight and Chicago stripes is killed due to 90s V being reckless unbeknownst to Cheyenne and the whole shipping vessel sinks in the ensuing fight. This is when it's revealed to the public that there is a team of Nightwings running around in Bludhaven. Scarecrow knows from his fight that none of them were the real Nightwing and that he needs to lay low because of the botched job. The cops become worried that their identities will be revealed when Chicago Stripes' body is found. Tensions begin to rise within the group as they start to realize how crazy this idea has become. 90s V is becoming more ruthless in his methods and keeping the team in line.

    Back to Dick, he finally breaks down and looks for help when fractured memories and emotions start coming back to him. He has a talk with Bruce who recommends a few psychiatrists he knows who work in Bludhaven. Dick goes to them all but doesn't think any of them are for him but then finds a small psychiatrist office that is a front used by the Scarecrow who is now stuck in Bludhaven waiting for a new chemical shipment. Scarecrow becomes Dick's psychiatrist for the rest of the story. There's a lot of dancing around them revealing who they really are to each other. The two actually begin to bond somewhat.

    While Dick is having these sessions with Crane; Dick feels he needs to confront the Nightwings about the botched job at the Harbor. He confronts them and they mostly blow him off, Discowing is the only one to stay and talk. I'd also make her Cheyenne Freemont because why not? Cheyenne holds back the info about her friend dying and that they fought the Scarecrow. Dick would start training her but as the same time using it as a way to retrain himself in secret. The two start becoming close and even team-up with the other Nightwings. Things look like they are finally turning around for Dick. He's starting to keep his fear under control, not completely but a lot better now. Until Babs returns with news about the Scarecrow being in Bludhaven, the Dead Nightwing and that Scarecrow has quietly been sending chemicals to Bludhaven for years for some reason.

    The reveal about the dead Nightwing fractures the group and breaks Dick's newfound confidence he built. The Nightwings decide that they need to take down Scarecrow they start roughing up and hurting innocents to find him. Cheyenne and New 52 are horrified at what they're becoming and try to leave. Black and Blue accidentally kills New 52 when he tries to call for help. Cheyenne flees barely over coming 90s V due to her training with Dick. The last 2 Nightwings track down Scarecrow's front and attack while Dick is in the middle of a session. Dick has to fight them off to unknowingly save Scarecrow's life. Who then gasses everyone in the room with a brand new compound he's been working on for years in Bludhaven. This new compound is a reworking of the original gas he tested on Robin years ago. The reworked formula causes Dick to trip his face off but in the process clear his mind. Cheyenne and Batgirl arrive just in time to see Dick knock out Scarecrow.

    In the end Cheyenne apologizes for everything that has happened and what she and the rest of the Nightwings caused by putting on the mask. Dick tells her that horrible things like this will always happen whether you wear the mask or not. It's just better to give it your best and try to save as many people as you can or something like that. I dunno I've only put in like an hour coming up with this.

    I really like the idea of a villain being rather passive in a arc, like they are in the middle of working up to some big scheme and some other unrelated issue pops up ruining their plan. A lot of this would be more character and dialogue focused which I can't really put into a huge long post like this since this is already long enough.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  4. #3019
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Why do you hate it so much?

    What exactly is the city suppose to do that it’s not fulfilling. How is it different from star city, central city go city? Dick could live in Tibet and he is still gonna run tonGotham and Batman when called no location can change that.
    Because in my eyes is a detriment to his character. Something that holds his stories back and prevents creators from telling more creative and interesting ones. There is a significant difference between what Bludhaven is to Dick and what a Star City or Central City is to GA or Flash. Those cities are where those characters are from. They have deeply rooted history there, and Dick has none of that with Bludhaven. I've repeated this so many times, but Dick has no family from there, none of his superhero identities were formed there, no friends or teams he knows there, and no real career or job to keep him there unlike all those other important cities for their heroes, but we are supposed to act like Bludhaven is just as important to Dick as all those other cities are to their heroes. It doesn't work for me.

    It forces creators to go down generic tropes and put Dick into a superhero box that is a watered downed version of those other heroes and their cities instead of finding a more unique and fitting path for his character. Bludhaven's main use is just a place to shove Dick's character away to when editorial doesn't want to deal with him. Gotham and Haly's Circus will always be his "home" over Bludhaven to me and I don't really see what it adds to his overall character at the end of the day.
    Last edited by Badou; 08-24-2019 at 05:04 AM.

  5. #3020
    Constant in Opal Nine Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Do you guys think Ric will make them more hesitant to try new things with Dick in the future now?
    I don't, if for no other reason that some Bat-event in the future will require Dick to be nerfed, and DC will need to come up with creative ways to do that.

  6. #3021
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Do you guys think Ric will make them more hesitant to try new things with Dick in the future now? I said this before, but with the way they direct things to Ric and the direction, instead of ever acknowledging the sup par work behind Ric and what was was actually done with Ric, i feel like it could. Which would be a shame. Because the execution was and is as equally, if not more, responsible for how shitty Ric turned out then anything else. And it would suck if their attempts to hide behind the direction resulted in even less experimentation and trying of new things.
    Outside of decreasing the odds of a "hey, what if Dick got amnesia?" pitch getting approved by TPTB, I doubt it'll have any significant impact on how willing DC will be to try new things with Dick going forward.

  7. #3022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    Outside of decreasing the odds of a "hey, what if Dick got amnesia?" pitch getting approved by TPTB, I doubt it'll have any significant impact on how willing DC will be to try new things with Dick going forward.
    I tend to agree. Somebody will want to try something and they'll okay it. At some point.

    Tangentially, I was under the impression that TPTB are like, well aware that this Ric thing is hot garbage. I don't know if it's specifically that the title and character is in a holding pattern until somebody big does something big, but obviously that's how it started. I am pretty curious about the behind-the-scenes writer conference side of things, though. Like, would King have derailed Nightwing (which I don't think is a wrong decision in and of itself) if Seeley had still been writing that book? Did Seeley jump ship when the plan was set in motion? Why didn't they just cancel the book, then relaunch with a new # 1 and new creative team when King's story "fixed" it. So on, so forth.

    But anyway yeah, there's always going to be that freedom with Nightwing that Batman just doesn't have.
    Retro315 no more. Anonymity is so 2005.
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  8. #3023
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I tend to agree. Somebody will want to try something and they'll okay it. At some point.

    Tangentially, I was under the impression that TPTB are like, well aware that this Ric thing is hot garbage. I don't know if it's specifically that the title and character is in a holding pattern until somebody big does something big, but obviously that's how it started. I am pretty curious about the behind-the-scenes writer conference side of things, though. Like, would King have derailed Nightwing (which I don't think is a wrong decision in and of itself) if Seeley had still been writing that book? Did Seeley jump ship when the plan was set in motion? Why didn't they just cancel the book, then relaunch with a new # 1 and new creative team when King's story "fixed" it. So on, so forth.

    But anyway yeah, there's always going to be that freedom with Nightwing that Batman just doesn't have.
    Didn't Bruce go through an amnesia story a few years ago with Robo-bunny Gordon? Seems like a lot of freedom to me.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  9. #3024

  10. #3025
    Constant in Opal Nine Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I tend to agree. Somebody will want to try something and they'll okay it. At some point.

    Tangentially, I was under the impression that TPTB are like, well aware that this Ric thing is hot garbage. I don't know if it's specifically that the title and character is in a holding pattern until somebody big does something big, but obviously that's how it started. I am pretty curious about the behind-the-scenes writer conference side of things, though. Like, would King have derailed Nightwing (which I don't think is a wrong decision in and of itself) if Seeley had still been writing that book? Did Seeley jump ship when the plan was set in motion? Why didn't they just cancel the book, then relaunch with a new # 1 and new creative team when King's story "fixed" it. So on, so forth.

    But anyway yeah, there's always going to be that freedom with Nightwing that Batman just doesn't have.
    I don't know about Seeley, but the guy who was writing Nightwing at the time did jump ship when his plans for the book were overruled for the "Ric" storyline.

    King is on record as saying that the resolution to this is out of his hands, so it seems as if there were no plans to fix this in his run.

  11. #3026
    Mighty Member nightbird's Avatar
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    I think it’s good the see, that Dick will be a mentor to all that New Titans

  12. #3027

  13. #3028
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    I love that the upvote is Dick and the downvote is Ric.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  14. #3029
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightbird View Post


    I think it’s good the see, that Dick will be a mentor to all that New Titans
    I knew they were going to give Garth the Roy/Donna relationship. Won’t be surprised if he acts like him too. Also he might be dead, hope not but seriously. Why does DC always pass around their female characters like this? They do this with Babs all the time in other media from the Arkham games to animated movies. I’m all for exploring character relationships, it just feels like they wanted to have Roy there but filled in the gap.

    Like imagine Titans gets you into these characters in the comics and you’re really invested in Donna and Garth together. What a surprise it’ll be when you see that they have never been together and never had any kind of romantic interactions. It feels werid.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  15. #3030
    Mighty Member nightbird's Avatar
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    “You command more respect than you realize”

    And yet we also have new DC animation version, where Nightwing is a useless idiot and striped down from his past glory and connections comics version.
    YJ right now one of the best depiction of the character, despite them sometimes not giving him enough screentime.

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