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  1. #661
    Fantastic Member astro@work's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wvchemteach View Post
    You keep saying it won't work... yet the times when Nightwing and Grayson were at their best was when they did have a consistent supporting cast. Dixon set up Bludhaven quite well for with a supporting cast of Clancy, Amygdala, John Fox, Hank Hogan, Mutt, Amy Rohrbach, Jim Rohrbach, Justin Rohrbach, Emma Rohrbach, Dave Toussant, Kesia Toussant as well as have Oracle and the Birds of Prey in and out. This was a solid 70 issue run of mostly good storytelling that even didn't get derailed too badly by several Bat-events that sucked him out of his own story. Then Devin Greyson takes over kills off the supporting cast and the book goes to hell. Now were the characters used every issue... of course not... but they provided flavor and background to his world. For the rest of volume #2 of Nightwing there was never a consistent supporting cast and the book sucked from that point forward.


    Nightwing Volume 3 can be characterized by Higgins shooting himself in the foot by blowing up his supporting cast over and over... burning down the circus. Then just as he started to build something in Chicago with Joey, Michael Pearson, and Jen (the Chicago run was the best part of Volume 3) Forever Evil occurs and kills off the supporting cast.


    Grayson you have Helena, the Skullgirls, Tiger, Frau Netz, Midnighter, Dr. Ashemore, and The Syndicate fleshed out the world of Spyral and made it more real.


    In Nightwing Volume 4 you start off with Seely using Batgirl and the Bat-family, Doctor Leviticus, and the Spyral connections before building up the cast in Bludhaven, Defacer, Grimm, Giz, Mouse, Stallion, Thrilldevil, and Detective Svobada and you have probably the best long run of Nightwing since Dixon's run in Volume 2 and a new writer takes over, dumps the supporting cast except for Svobada and begins the descent into what is now 'Ric' Grayson and the Mighty Nightwings.

    Supporting cast allows the reader to see how the hero interacts in his/her everyday life and makes the character relatable. If the only characters the hero interacts with are the villains or other heroes, the stories become repetitive and boring.
    100% agree. Dick’s runs have been at their best when he has a consistent supporting cast, and you see him building relationships. I have no interest in reading about a nomadic Nightwing, who doesn’t ever interact with anybody that isn’t a hero or villain.

    The problem is every time we get a new writer they want to reinvent the wheel and ignore everything the past writer did. Meh.
    Wonder Woman suffered from this for years post-Crisis. Her title has been much better in recent years BECAUSE of a mostly consistent cast. Same with Batgirl.

  2. #662
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But does that mean the supporting characters didn't work at all? I dont think so. Is a supporting character "bad" because the next writer dumps them? No, that just means the writer was given too much freedom and leeway and editorial didn't enforce the kind of world building they should have. You're blaming the character for the actions of creators and their editors. Dick has had some great supporting cast members (and several boring/bad ones) but the lack of consistency, development, and constancy isn't on the characters, its on DC for not doing the job right. Dixon brought a great crew to Bludhaven; they didn't fail because they were bad characters they failed because DC couldn't be bothered to make the next writers toe the line.
    I guess the difference we have is I think that vast majority of those supporting cast members were boring and not very interesting. I don't think investing more time and resources into them will change that. All these runoff characters that Seeley brought back from Dixon's run I didn't care for nor the vast majority of new characters that fill the Nightwing books over the years. Leave them in the past where they belong. I feel like trying to reuse so many of these poor characters will continue to lead to poor stories that don't really go anywhere or do anything. I don't think bringing Clancy back or reusing that computer roommate girl in Higgins Chicago run will make the Nightwing book any better. Like the best stories we get are ones that involve Dick in the DCU interacting with characters that he actually has connections with. Who is Donna Troy story, Grayson, Black Mirror, Batman and Robin, the non Bludhaven issues of Seeley's run, the Oracle focused issues from the early Nightwing era, and so on. Do more of those and less of Dick doing some pointless job in a city that is going nowhere other than trying to emulate Daredevil.

    I'll bring up the Wolverine series again and I'd prefer something in that mold. Wolverine is also a hero that doesn't really have any plans for a "normal" life or career and originated from a team book. His stories consisted of stories built around him but with him exploring the MCU in various ways. He has a base of operations in the X-Men or Avengers if he needs one but his solo stories focus on him. Dick has that with Gotham and the Titans if he needs a home base, but he should just explore the DCU as a hero and build various stories around that. Like what the Young Justice show is doing. Even the Red Hood and the Outlaws book is doing this and loads of Marvel books.

  3. #663

  4. #664
    Spectacular Member Schumiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    Well, it's supposed to be a family. You and your kin might not all be living in each other's back pockets, but you stay in touch, you visit, you have each other's backs. I don't have a problem with Bat-Family members appearing in each others' books.
    Yeah, it is only natural... Actually, I think it is a problem when they are made to appear oblivious to whatever is going on in each other's life. They don't even necessarily have to do "heroic" stuff together and work an entire issue towards catching a villain every time -which are the usual "comic selling" gimmicks where they are featured in the comics etc-... Even a smalll couple-panel long phone or vid convo etc to show these people keep in touch can do wonders for the overall story and feel of the comics...

    When Babs and Dick were dating back in the Vol 1 years, Babs would appear in Nightwing comics, as was expected. Given she was his girlfriend. She was part of the supporting cast and obviously the title of the comcis wasn't changed to Oracle & Nightwing as her part in it werent huge. Just a reminder that Nightwing is human and has loved ones and friends and neighbors and coworkers and does "common folks stuff" at times... Which is often the purpose of the supporting cast, I would say. To make the hero more than "the hero".


    No new supporting cast is going to "make it" if they are being discarded anytime a new writer shows up... Or the hero keeps getting reset with a new canon every few years *ahem*. It is an "industry" problem rather than a Nightwing problem though.
    Last edited by Schumiac; 02-03-2019 at 01:00 PM.

  5. #665
    Spectacular Member Schumiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Dick drawing in the kids who don't want to be in the family pic/hug...

  6. #666
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    It's a laziness problem.

  7. #667
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I guess the difference we have is I think that vast majority of those supporting cast members were boring and not very interesting. .
    Well if the issue is you just didn't like them, then that's all good. Hell, I haven't liked them all, and haven't been particularly thrilled by any of them since the circus crew.

    As for Dick getting along without a supporting cast, I think he could. He definitely doesnt stick around any one place long enough to build lasting relationships (because writers keep dumping the previous work, the bastards!) so not even trying does have its appeal.

    I myself think he's gotta have at least a few regular faces who aren't guest starring from other properties; even a globe-trotting Dick Grayson is going to have some people he interacts with on a semi-regular basis, and a homebase to return to occasionally. But I dont think either view is wrong, just two different yet valid approaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schumiac View Post
    Dick drawing in the kids who don't want to be in the family pic/hug...
    Twitter has a really odd idea of what the Batfamily is like. But the fanart is cute.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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    Bridge Four!

  8. #668
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Twitter has a really odd idea of what the Batfamily is like. But the fanart is cute.
    That kinda fanart doesn't depict what's in the comic but what they want to see, that often they never get in the comics

  9. #669
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    I don’t know, everyone hugging each other all the time would be weird.

  10. #670
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Anyone read that Batgirl story arc with Dick as a supporting character/co-star? I'm reading through it now. Enjoyable stuff. Doesn't treat Dick like he's incompetent to a major jerkface. Really my one complaint is that the penciler seems to have drawn him weird throughout the whole thing. Like, he has female hips. Least masculine rendering of a male I've seen in comics.

  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well if the issue is you just didn't like them, then that's all good. Hell, I haven't liked them all, and haven't been particularly thrilled by any of them since the circus crew.

    As for Dick getting along without a supporting cast, I think he could. He definitely doesnt stick around any one place long enough to build lasting relationships (because writers keep dumping the previous work, the bastards!) so not even trying does have its appeal.

    I myself think he's gotta have at least a few regular faces who aren't guest starring from other properties; even a globe-trotting Dick Grayson is going to have some people he interacts with on a semi-regular basis, and a homebase to return to occasionally. But I dont think either view is wrong, just two different yet valid approaches.



    Twitter has a really odd idea of what the Batfamily is like. But the fanart is cute.
    I would be in favor of the return of Ninnel from Grayson #1.

  12. #672
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    Anyone read that Batgirl story arc with Dick as a supporting character/co-star? I'm reading through it now. Enjoyable stuff. Doesn't treat Dick like he's incompetent to a major jerkface. Really my one complaint is that the penciler seems to have drawn him weird throughout the whole thing. Like, he has female hips. Least masculine rendering of a male I've seen in comics.

    The Summer of Lies arc? I liked it. Thought Larson did a good job with Nightwing.

  13. #673
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The Summer of Lies arc? I liked it. Thought Larson did a good job with Nightwing.
    Yeah, thats the one. Other than the weird art I really enjoyed. It was some of the better written Dick/Babs. It also makes me long for some more arcs set in the DickRobin early BabsGirl era.

  14. #674
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    I'm sure I have it somewhere in the house, but can't remember it. Didn't notice anything with the hips.

  15. #675
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schumiac View Post
    Dick drawing in the kids who don't want to be in the family pic/hug...
    It would be nice if we got a little of this just to break up all the angst and manpain within the family.. The little bit of tumblr batfamily King gave us made the money I spent on 40 odd crap issues worth it

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