Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[wvchemteach]

I guess the difference we have is I think that vast majority of those supporting cast members were boring and not very interesting. I don't think investing more time and resources into them will change that. All these runoff characters that Seeley brought back from Dixon's run I didn't care for nor the vast majority of new characters that fill the Nightwing books over the years. Leave them in the past where they belong. I feel like trying to reuse so many of these poor characters will continue to lead to poor stories that don't really go anywhere or do anything. I don't think bringing Clancy back or reusing that computer roommate girl in Higgins Chicago run will make the Nightwing book any better. Like the best stories we get are ones that involve Dick in the DCU interacting with characters that he actually has connections with. Who is Donna Troy story, Grayson, Black Mirror, Batman and Robin, the non Bludhaven issues of Seeley's run, the Oracle focused issues from the early Nightwing era, and so on. Do more of those and less of Dick doing some pointless job in a city that is going nowhere other than trying to emulate Daredevil.

I'll bring up the Wolverine series again and I'd prefer something in that mold. Wolverine is also a hero that doesn't really have any plans for a "normal" life or career and originated from a team book. His stories consisted of stories built around him but with him exploring the MCU in various ways. He has a base of operations in the X-Men or Avengers if he needs one but his solo stories focus on him. Dick has that with Gotham and the Titans if he needs a home base, but he should just explore the DCU as a hero and build various stories around that. Like what the Young Justice show is doing. Even the Red Hood and the Outlaws book is doing this and loads of Marvel books.

Everyone has their opinion on what s/he consider interesting and/or boring and I guess the Wolverine comparison might work if we keep 'Ric' "Jason Todd" Grayson, but if we go that route I'm probably out anyhow.


My favorite runs on Nightwing are Dixon's run in Volume 2, Higgins when he finally settled down to world build, Grayson, and Seely's run once he got to Bludhaven. That is what I want more of. To me the lone wolf, no supporting cast reminds me too much of the post-Blockbuster death run in volume 2 followed by the mishmash that came once they moved him to New York and things like the Paragon story in Higgins run.

[Badou]

Everyone has their opinion on what s/he consider interesting and/or boring and I guess the Wolverine comparison might work if we keep 'Ric' "Jason Todd" Grayson, but if we go that route I'm probably out anyhow.


My favorite runs on Nightwing are Dixon's run in Volume 2, Higgins when he finally settled down to world build, Grayson, and Seely's run once he got to Bludhaven. That is what I want more of. To me the lone wolf, no supporting cast reminds me too much of the post-Blockbuster death run in volume 2 followed by the mishmash that came once they moved him to New York and things like the Paragon story in Higgins run.

The Ric story we have now is the opposite of what I want. The Ric story is CONTINUING what I think is bad about Nightwing in that they just stick him back in some city, with useless new characters, and a useless new job. It represents all the things I've been complaining against. It allows DC to isolate him and dismiss his character instead of letting him be active and build up his importance in the DCU the way the Grayson series tried to do or the more interesting parts of Seeley's run where you had a Wally, Superman or Helena show up. Like it wouldn't just be Dick on his own as you have countless established characters around him to support him. You just cut out all the fat.

The current Deathstroke run is another good example. That book mostly consists of supporting characters that were already established with some new characters mixed in, but the story really isn't built around them. Its arcs have an central ongoing theme but the individual arcs have the freedom to do anything since the character isn't tied down. There is an arc where he teams up with his daughter, an arc where he creates his own young superhero team, an arc where he fights Batman with Damian constantly showing up, and a new arc of him in Arkham. Have an arc where Dick and Damian team up or be there through the whole series, then have an arc where Dick goes to Metropolis for an arc to follow some mystery, an arc where Dick serves as a temporary Green Lantern teaming up with Starfire, an arc where Dick and Wally are going through the multiverse, write a huge Titans story but let it be an arc in Nightwing, and so on. I just don't know how many more stories I can read about Dick going to some city and working as a bartender, or a whatever, while some villain wants to take over some city I don't care about for some nebulous reason all while Dick runs around on rooftops. I feel like I've read that story a thousand times.

But it is like you said and I get that readers prefer different things. While I am not the biggest fan of creators constantly trying to redo the Dixon era and turn Nightwing into a Daredevil-lite character I get some enjoy it and think it is the best part about the character.

[oasis1313]

The Ric story we have now is the opposite of what I want. The Ric story is CONTINUING what I think is bad about Nightwing in that they just stick him back in some city, with useless new characters, and a useless new job. It represents all the things I've been complaining against. It allows DC to isolate him and dismiss his character instead of letting him be active and build up his importance in the DCU the way the Grayson series tried to do or the more interesting parts of Seeley's run where you had a Wally, Superman or Helena show up. Like it wouldn't just be Dick on his own as you have countless established characters around him to support him. You just cut out all the fat.

The current Deathstroke run is another good example. That book mostly consists of supporting characters that were already established with some new characters mixed in, but the story really isn't built around them. Its arcs have an central ongoing theme but the individual arcs have the freedom to do anything since the character isn't tied down. There is an arc where he teams up with his daughter, an arc where he creates his own young superhero team, an arc where he fights Batman with Damian constantly showing up, and a new arc of him in Arkham. Have an arc where Dick and Damian team up or be there through the whole series, then have an arc where Dick goes to Metropolis for an arc to follow some mystery, an arc where Dick serves as a temporary Green Lantern teaming up with Starfire, an arc where Dick and Wally are going through the multiverse, write a huge Titans story but let it be an arc in Nightwing, and so on. I just don't know how many more stories I can read about Dick going to some city and working as a bartender, or a whatever, while some villain wants to take over some city I don't care about for some nebulous reason all while Dick runs around on rooftops. I feel like I've read that story a thousand times.

But it is like you said and I get that readers prefer different things. While I am not the biggest fan of creators constantly trying to redo the Dixon era and turn Nightwing into a Daredevil-lite character I get some enjoy it and think it is the best part about the character.

I'd be grateful enough for even that. The Hobo Ric story is continuing and continuing and continuing with no end in sight. Didio definitely believes, "Revenge is a dish best eaten cold."

[Badou]

I'd be grateful enough for even that. The Hobo Ric story is continuing and continuing and continuing with no end in sight. Didio definitely believes, "Revenge is a dish best eaten cold."

The Ric story will very likely end this summer as DC, the Batman office, and Didio are just forcing the Ric story to keep Dick out of the way while King's Batman story is going on. It is the only reason it exists because King wants to do his Knightfall knockoff, and maybe they needed to keep Dick out of the way for HiC too, but the latter is obviously the biggest reason because King wants Bruce to "suffer" or whatever.

But it just speaks to what Godlike has been saying in that Dick has no future in the Batman office and needs to get out of there.

[WonderNight]

It's like I've been saying, send dick to the superman office.

[oasis1313]

The Ric story will very likely end this summer as DC, the Batman office, and Didio are just forcing the Ric story to keep Dick out of the way while King's Batman story is going on. It is the only reason it exists because King wants to do his Knightfall knockoff, and maybe they needed to keep Dick out of the way for HiC too, but the latter is obviously the biggest reason because King wants Bruce to "suffer" or whatever.

But it just speaks to what Godlike has been saying in that Dick has no future in the Batman office and needs to get out of there.

I don't see Batman "suffering". As far as I've been able to tell, nobody in the Bat-Family (besides Barbara and Alfred) have even mentioned it. With Didio's fanboy bias against the character and his fans, I'm wondering if Dick has a future at DC at all--let alone the Bat-Office. They don't want him around, maybe give him over to the Elongated Man Office or the Ambush Bug Office. According to King's statement of having 100 issues in him, that looks like two more years of this abomination.

[Schumiac]

I don't see Batman "suffering". As far as I've been able to tell, nobody in the Bat-Family (besides Barbara and Alfred) have even mentioned it. With Didio's fanboy bias against the character and his fans, I'm wondering if Dick has a future at DC at all--let alone the Bat-Office. They don't want him around, maybe give him over to the Elongated Man Office or the Ambush Bug Office. According to King's statement of having 100 issues in him, that looks like two more years of this abomination.

Oh but please, Barbara was "reporting" to Batman, so we are to know Papa cares...

Batman is supposed to be "unhinged", with Dick being shot being the final blow, in a masterplan by Bane where he "broke the Bat" again, this time mentally. So he is out there beating KGBeast to death and leaving him to die (debatable), going into Arkham to beat up criminals to get a confession out of them that Bane is behind all these, punching Jim Gordon and allienating the Gotham PD from himself and coming off more and more as a crazy villain himself to them... All of which is supposed to lead to Bane breaking him physically at some point too it seems, where Gotham Girl will kill Batman, i suppose, because King did mention that somewhere in his run before (if he rememebers that. and if he didn't change that narrative..).. Of course all this in between the "breaks" King takes for the "delving into Batman's psyche" issues it is hard to remember how all this is supposed to go back to Dick being shot and not being there to act as emotional support for Batman and help him keep his sanity...

I do hate that Bruce is shown as such a weakling who is so easy to "break" even after all these years...

I DESPISE it that Bruce is supposedly so affected by what happened to Dick -becausee he loves Dick so much- that he is off beating anyone in his path within an inch of their lives, but can't bother to check on his dear son himself, doesn't seem at all concerned that he is homeless and penniless and living like a bum and thinks "maybe this is better for him".

I do not care to see a story where Bane owns and kills/disposes of Batman yet again (and really repeating Knightfall isnt very original. and taking so long to repeat a story already told kind of comes off lame, but who knows, maybe end result will be shocking and different somehow.. it just hasnt been so far...)

and I HATE that Dick is put on ice like this so that King can freely drug Bruce/Batman down the mud and torture the guy....

King singlehandedly destroyed the Bat-family. Damian isn't faring that well on his own with no "support" from family either... And I don't really blame King for his, I blame the Bat-Office who allowed one writer to affect so many books and characters this way for so long without a care....

[wvchemteach]

The Ric story we have now is the opposite of what I want. The Ric story is CONTINUING what I think is bad about Nightwing in that they just stick him back in some city, with useless new characters, and a useless new job. It represents all the things I've been complaining against. It allows DC to isolate him and dismiss his character instead of letting him be active and build up his importance in the DCU the way the Grayson series tried to do or the more interesting parts of Seeley's run where you had a Wally, Superman or Helena show up. Like it wouldn't just be Dick on his own as you have countless established characters around him to support him. You just cut out all the fat.

The current Deathstroke run is another good example. That book mostly consists of supporting characters that were already established with some new characters mixed in, but the story really isn't built around them. Its arcs have an central ongoing theme but the individual arcs have the freedom to do anything since the character isn't tied down. There is an arc where he teams up with his daughter, an arc where he creates his own young superhero team, an arc where he fights Batman with Damian constantly showing up, and a new arc of him in Arkham. Have an arc where Dick and Damian team up or be there through the whole series, then have an arc where Dick goes to Metropolis for an arc to follow some mystery, an arc where Dick serves as a temporary Green Lantern teaming up with Starfire, an arc where Dick and Wally are going through the multiverse, write a huge Titans story but let it be an arc in Nightwing, and so on. I just don't know how many more stories I can read about Dick going to some city and working as a bartender, or a whatever, while some villain wants to take over some city I don't care about for some nebulous reason all while Dick runs around on rooftops. I feel like I've read that story a thousand times.

But it is like you said and I get that readers prefer different things. While I am not the biggest fan of creators constantly trying to redo the Dixon era and turn Nightwing into a Daredevil-lite character I get some enjoy it and think it is the best part about the character.

I have to respectfully disagree. The 'Ric' story is not about putting Dick with a small supporting cast and putting him in a city. It is about making him into Jason Todd combined with the editors not having a clue what to do with Nightwing and them putting one of the more incompetent writers they have when it comes to writing Dick Grayson. This is just like after Devin Greyson run Nightwing into the ground after the Dixon run, killing off the supporting cast and then they put a writer on the book that would rather write Jason Todd than Dick Grayson.

[dropkickjake]

Yeah. Ric is DC trying to milk money out of the nightwing name while still have Dick out of the picture (presumable for the sake of the Batman run).

I mean, there had to be a better way to do that, but I do think that's the motivation. Having him in Bludhaven with "supporting characters," is really just incidental to laziness and should not be used an example of "Dick protecting a city and having a supporting cast."

But yeah, different strokes for different folks and all that. I'd personally like to see a mix of both, like what Seeley was going for. I wasn't particularly interested in Seeley's supporting cast though. I'm not convinced Seeley was either, tbh. I'd also like the globe trotting missions to utilize Spyral more explicitly.

[wvchemteach]

Yeah. Ric is DC trying to milk money out of the nightwing name while still have Dick out of the picture (presumable for the sake of the Batman run).

I mean, there had to be a better way to do that, but I do think that's the motivation. Having him in Bludhaven with "supporting characters," is really just incidental to laziness and should not be used an example of "Dick protecting a city and having a supporting cast."

But yeah, different strokes for different folks and all that. I'd personally like to see a mix of both, like what Seeley was going for. I wasn't particularly interested in Seeley's supporting cast though. I'm not convinced Seeley was either, tbh. I'd also like the globe trotting missions to utilize Spyral more explicitly.

I'd love to see Dick still working with Spyral much in the way the Hood was an agent working for them, but still in costume.

[oasis1313]

Oh but please, Barbara was "reporting" to Batman, so we are to know Papa cares...

Batman is supposed to be "unhinged", with Dick being shot being the final blow, in a masterplan by Bane where he "broke the Bat" again, this time mentally. So he is out there beating KGBeast to death and leaving him to die (debatable), going into Arkham to beat up criminals to get a confession out of them that Bane is behind all these, punching Jim Gordon and allienating the Gotham PD from himself and coming off more and more as a crazy villain himself to them... All of which is supposed to lead to Bane breaking him physically at some point too it seems, where Gotham Girl will kill Batman, i suppose, because King did mention that somewhere in his run before (if he rememebers that. and if he didn't change that narrative..).. Of course all this in between the "breaks" King takes for the "delving into Batman's psyche" issues it is hard to remember how all this is supposed to go back to Dick being shot and not being there to act as emotional support for Batman and help him keep his sanity...

I do hate that Bruce is shown as such a weakling who is so easy to "break" even after all these years...

I DESPISE it that Bruce is supposedly so affected by what happened to Dick -becausee he loves Dick so much- that he is off beating anyone in his path within an inch of their lives, but can't bother to check on his dear son himself, doesn't seem at all concerned that he is homeless and penniless and living like a bum and thinks "maybe this is better for him".

I do not care to see a story where Bane owns and kills/disposes of Batman yet again (and really repeating Knightfall isnt very original. and taking so long to repeat a story already told kind of comes off lame, but who knows, maybe end result will be shocking and different somehow.. it just hasnt been so far...)

and I HATE that Dick is put on ice like this so that King can freely drug Bruce/Batman down the mud and torture the guy....

King singlehandedly destroyed the Bat-family. Damian isn't faring that well on his own with no "support" from family either... And I don't really blame King for his, I blame the Bat-Office who allowed one writer to affect so many books and characters this way for so long without a care....

It's easy to break things. Just ask the bull in the china shop. But then later, ask the owner of the china shop how he's going to put the store back together. At the moment, King feels like the bull to me: "What can I do NEXT to thoroughly make this man's life a living Hell? I'm going to have my pal Bane break him until this heroic character is drooling and incontinent in Arkham himself?" Maybe THEN Zatanna will cast a spell and he'll be right as rain next month. Batman has been put through one tragedy after another--what next, have Bane dig up his parents, behead the corpses, pike the heads on the wrought-iron fence around Wayne Manor, then pose the headless skeletons in an obscene position on the steps of Gotham City Hall? Then what? Oh, let's kidnap Commissioner Gordon and put him through some hideous perverted stuff that should never be seen by a family audience--oh, wait--somebody already did that? Day-yum! Oh, well, we could always do it to Alfred instead--that'll make the point. It just feels like King is heaping one misery after another just for the sake of seeing how low he can go.

[wvchemteach]

It's easy to break things. Just ask the bull in the china shop. But then later, ask the owner of the china shop how he's going to put the store back together. At the moment, King feels like the bull to me: "What can I do NEXT to thoroughly make this man's life a living Hell? I'm going to have my pal Bane break him until this heroic character is drooling and incontinent in Arkham himself?" Maybe THEN Zatanna will cast a spell and he'll be right as rain next month. Batman has been put through one tragedy after another--what next, have Bane dig up his parents, behead the corpses, pike the heads on the wrought-iron fence around Wayne Manor, then pose the headless skeletons in an obscene position on the steps of Gotham City Hall? Then what? Oh, let's kidnap Commissioner Gordon and put him through some hideous perverted stuff that should never be seen by a family audience--oh, wait--somebody already did that? Day-yum! Oh, well, we could always do it to Alfred instead--that'll make the point. It just feels like King is heaping one misery after another just for the sake of seeing how low he can go.

As low as you can go... isn't that what Devin Greyson was trying to do to Nightwing during her run and the whole Tarantula on the rooftop?

[Arsenal]

It's easy to break things. Just ask the bull in the china shop. But then later, ask the owner of the china shop how he's going to put the store back together. At the moment, King feels like the bull to me: "What can I do NEXT to thoroughly make this man's life a living Hell? I'm going to have my pal Bane break him until this heroic character is drooling and incontinent in Arkham himself?" Maybe THEN Zatanna will cast a spell and he'll be right as rain next month. Batman has been put through one tragedy after another--what next, have Bane dig up his parents, behead the corpses, pike the heads on the wrought-iron fence around Wayne Manor, then pose the headless skeletons in an obscene position on the steps of Gotham City Hall? Then what? Oh, let's kidnap Commissioner Gordon and put him through some hideous perverted stuff that should never be seen by a family audience--oh, wait--somebody already did that? Day-yum! Oh, well, we could always do it to Alfred instead--that'll make the point. It just feels like King is heaping one misery after another just for the sake of seeing how low he can go.

It’d be pretty easy to clean up the China shop after the bull left because the bull won’t break a thing.

[dropkickjake]

It's easy to break things. Just ask the bull in the china shop. But then later, ask the owner of the china shop how he's going to put the store back together. At the moment, King feels like the bull to me: "What can I do NEXT to thoroughly make this man's life a living Hell? I'm going to have my pal Bane break him until this heroic character is drooling and incontinent in Arkham himself?" Maybe THEN Zatanna will cast a spell and he'll be right as rain next month. Batman has been put through one tragedy after another--what next, have Bane dig up his parents, behead the corpses, pike the heads on the wrought-iron fence around Wayne Manor, then pose the headless skeletons in an obscene position on the steps of Gotham City Hall? Then what? Oh, let's kidnap Commissioner Gordon and put him through some hideous perverted stuff that should never be seen by a family audience--oh, wait--somebody already did that? Day-yum! Oh, well, we could always do it to Alfred instead--that'll make the point. It just feels like King is heaping one misery after another just for the sake of seeing how low he can go.

This is pretty much it. "The hero is broken" stories have been a bit... overdone at this point. We don't need another one. We don't need it to outdo the last. Its sorta cheap thrills as far as I'm concerned.

[byrd156]

Dick needs to be more DCU than Batman right now. Those bat roots are important but he needs to find something completely different. Try out some ideas with a fresh writer who wants to explore someone like Dick taking on issues and villains bigger than himself.