Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[dropkickjake]

I believe their slogan was "Have it your way."

And there has to be a balance, sure. Remember that Grayson ended because of part of the fandom being pissy about it. (Weird to cancel a critical darling for fan outcry but not this train wreck. I havent read any glowing reviews of it either.) DC, or comics in general, shouldnt just cave to fan demand; that would cause stagnation. On the other hand though, the clear audience surrogate and thinly veiled insults to the reader are a new low. I never managed a restaurant, but I served for a few years. The customer was wrong plenty of times, but we still fired servers who were passive aggressive or insulting to our guests. (Once a server chased a customer out to the parking lot to confrontationally return a tip she considered insulting. Yeah, so she was fired...)

[Godlike13]

This is not Grayson though, nor is this even about catering to fan demand. This is a bullshit situation, with last minute creator shifts, uninvested mercenary creators, and blatantly regurgitated ideas. It would be wrong for a restaurant to serve food they know is sub par and unfair to their consumer. But that is exactly what DC is doing with Ric. The practice displayed by the managers, creators, and editors on Nightwing has been gross. And now the last minute writers, be it the plotter who can't manage to actually fully write this, or the guy doing the scripts for this week, want to shift it onto fans for being unfair to it on their way out. This is wrong, and just obvious bad practice. The people responsible for the Nightwing book truly should be ashamed of themselves.

[oasis1313]

[QUOTE=Ascended;4271377] I mean hey, a lot of us fans were very much against the idea of Grayson, before the story began. We were far from right about that, and if DC had listened to us we wouldn't have gotten one of the best runs Dick has seen in thirty years, right? [QUOTE]

I had no objections to Grayson; I gave it a chance, as I have Ric. As an earlier poster said, there was a plan and a method in place then. Now it's just Dick Grayson being exiled from his own title because Didio doesn't want him used; Dick is effectively dead. I don't believe that "Grayson" ended because some fans were being pissy about it--I believe it ended because Didio wanted the King/Janin team over on the more high-profile Batman book. If they were going to end a book just on customer unhappiness, Ric wouldn't last this long--particularly with no end in sight. Again, blaming poor management decisions on the customers. Ascended noted that in business, you have to build a solid relationship on a customer based on brand trust--on what basis can we trust DC to do what is best for the character (which is all we want)?

[astro@work]

This is not Grayson though, nor is this even about catering to fan demand. This is a bullshit situation, with last minute creator shifts, uninvested mercenary creators, and blatantly regurgitated ideas. It would be wrong for a restaurant to serve food they know is sub par and unfair to their consumer. But that is exactly what DC is doing with Ric. The practice displayed by the managers, creators, and editors on Nightwing has been gross. And now the last minute writers, be it the plotter who can't manage to actually fully write this, or the guy doing the scripts for this week, want to shift it onto fans for being unfair to it on their way out. This is wrong, and just obvious bad practice. The people responsible for the Nightwing book truly should be ashamed of themselves.

Agree. In the case of Grayson, I was leery going in and ended up loving it. The solid writing and characterization sold me in a hurry.
In the case of "Ric" -Nightwing, I went in open minded and have hated it after trying several issues. Biggest complaints: lack of characterization. I have no investment in any of the substitute Nightwings, and "Ric" himself just doesn't bear any resemblance to the Dick I knew.

Blaming it on the fans is a cop out. I don't hate it because I didn't buy it. I hate it because I DID buy it, and after six issues was compelled to stop so DC didn't mistakenly think I liked anything about it. And I'm a die hard completist...I've bought every run of Titans (including the Jaaska years and the "Epsilon" run), all three "boots" of the Legion, Bart-as-Flash run of the Flash... but it's a big nope for Ric. I don't need an Nightwing ongoing about non-Dick non-Nightwing.

[Restingvoice]

I believe their slogan was "Have it your way."

And there has to be a balance, sure. Remember that Grayson ended because of part of the fandom being pissy about it. (Weird to cancel a critical darling for fan outcry but not this train wreck. I havent read any glowing reviews of it either.) DC, or comics in general, shouldnt just cave to fan demand; that would cause stagnation. On the other hand though, the clear audience surrogate and thinly veiled insults to the reader are a new low. I never managed a restaurant, but I served for a few years. The customer was wrong plenty of times, but we still fired servers who were passive aggressive or insulting to our guests. (Once a server chased a customer out to the parking lot to confrontationally return a tip she considered insulting. Yeah, so she was fired...)

The return to Nightwing from Grayson is inevitable. The only question was when. The success of Grayson's initial story arc delay it (TimTom wrote by arcs just in case it got canned) but once DC decided on Rebirth, it's on. I doubt they even pay attention to the outcry. They were busy with bigger things, like losing market share to 25% that leads to Rebirth.

However, this time, there is no Rebirth 2.0 to return Nightwing from Ric. All the other important books like Batman, Superman, Justice League and Heroes in Crisis are pretty successful. So whether Nightwing succeed or not doesn't matter.

[Godlike13]

Plus at the end of the day with Grayson the creators on it put in the work to make that the best book they could. They didn’t lazily regurgitated recently failed ideas or make the character they were selling look like dog shit, and then try to tell readers it’s their fault for not giving it a chance.

I defended shooting Dick in the head at first too, it wasn’t till they switch everything and then I read it that I turned on it. I still think Ric could have at least been a decent story. But instead they turned its into a rip off We Are Robin, and took every lazy and uninspired road with Ric. With the added bonus of having him insult himself, the characters the readers were following for 50 issues, over and over with generic real world sensibilities bullshit. Oh how unhealthy is it to grow up in a cave, oh F off.

[Restingvoice]

Oh, I hate it and don't buy it, because it's not the story that made me mad, but the idea that someone is allowed to just determine the fate of a main character from a series he didn't even write. Everything else I saw after that merely confirms how bad of an idea it was.

[oasis1313]

The return to Nightwing from Grayson is inevitable. The only question was when. The success of Grayson's initial story arc delay it (TimTom wrote by arcs just in case it got canned) but once DC decided on Rebirth, it's on. I doubt they even pay attention to the outcry. They were busy with bigger things, like losing market share to 25% that leads to Rebirth.

However, this time, there is no Rebirth 2.0 to return Nightwing from Ric. All the other important books like Batman, Superman, Justice League and Heroes in Crisis are pretty successful. So whether Nightwing succeed or not doesn't matter.

Doesn't feel inevitable at the moment. Feels dismal. We want more for DC's IP than they do.

[dropkickjake]

So I only brought up Grayson as an example of how "the customer is always right" isn't always true. I loved the book.

The return to Nightwing from Grayson is inevitable. The only question was when. The success of Grayson's initial story arc delay it (TimTom wrote by arcs just in case it got canned) but once DC decided on Rebirth, it's on. I doubt they even pay attention to the outcry. They were busy with bigger things, like losing market share to 25% that leads to Rebirth.

However, this time, there is no Rebirth 2.0 to return Nightwing from Ric. All the other important books like Batman, Superman, Justice League and Heroes in Crisis are pretty successful. So whether Nightwing succeed or not doesn't matter.

This gets thrown around a lot, and I honestly just don't accept it. The return to Nightwing, in the sense of him being a costumed vigilante only, was not inevitable. His return to Robin wasn't inevitable when he became Nightwing, was it?

And I believe that Tim himself made some comments about how frustrating it was that he couldn't tell the Grayson stories he wanted to tell anymore because people just wanted to read the same old stuff. That sounds like fan outcry was certainly taken into account.

[Rac7d*]

So I only brought up Grayson as an example of how "the customer is always right" isn't always true. I loved the book.




This gets thrown around a lot, and I honestly just don't accept it. The return to Nightwing, in the sense of him being a costumed vigilante only, was not inevitable. His return to Robin wasn't inevitable when he became Nightwing, was it?

And I believe that Tim himself made some comments about how frustrating it was that he couldn't tell the Grayson stories he wanted to tell anymore because people just wanted to read the same old stuff. That sounds like fan outcry was certainly taken into account.

thats what alt universes are for

hmm now i feel some sympathy for zack synder

[dropkickjake]

thats what alt universes are for

hmm now i feel some sympathy for zack synder

Those books don't typically gain the traction that main continuity books do. And having to push new ideas for a character, particularly ideas that are already working well, doesn't solve the problem of stagnation in comics due to fans not accepting new directions.

(again, not defending the current direction.)

[Rac7d*]

Those books don't typically gain the traction that main continuity books do. And having to push new ideas for a character, particularly ideas that are already working well, doesn't solve the problem of stagnation in comics due to fans not accepting new directions.

(again, not defending the current direction.)

Nightwing the new order did

[Ascended]

So I only brought up Grayson as an example of how "the customer is always right" isn't always true. I loved the book.

That was my original point. The customer matters, obviously, and you want the customer happy and loyal. But that doesnt mean you accept the customers' opinion as informed or expert. A lot of the time, the customer doesn't know what they want until you show it to them.

And Im sorry for bringing it up and derailing the thread.

This gets thrown around a lot, and I honestly just don't accept it. The return to Nightwing, in the sense of him being a costumed vigilante only, was not inevitable. His return to Robin wasn't inevitable when he became Nightwing, was it?

I do think Dick returning to the Nightwing persona was inevitable, actually. As a brand name "Grayson" doesn't get the attention "Nightwing" does, and the Nightwing costume is easier to market than the generic (cool, but generic) spy gear.

The Spyral direction was not inevitably going to go away and I still think it was a mistake to abandon something that was proving to work. But Dick putting on a costume again was gonna happen for business reasons if nothing else, I think.

[Rac7d*]

That was my original point. The customer matters, obviously, and you want the customer happy and loyal. But that doesnt mean you accept the customers' opinion as informed or expert. A lot of the time, the customer doesn't know what they want until you show it to them.

And Im sorry for bringing it up and derailing the thread.



I do think Dick returning to the Nightwing persona was inevitable, actually. As a brand name "Grayson" doesn't get the attention "Nightwing" does, and the Nightwing costume is easier to market than the generic (cool, but generic) spy gear.

The Spyral direction was not inevitably going to go away and I still think it was a mistake to abandon something that was proving to work. But Dick putting on a costume again was gonna happen for business reasons if nothing else, I think.

Spyral doesnt really exist without him, Helena presences has all but vanished without birds of prey

[Ascended]

Im super bummed that Dick is apparently missing out on the whole Leviathan story in the Super-books. Aside from Clark and his family (it IS a Super event after all) Dick and Bruce are the two people who really, really ought to be there. Bruce because of Talia (obvs) and Dick because of Spyral, which I feel, in a way, gives him a little more skin in the game (though much, much less personal).