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  1. #1636

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    It isnt that simple and I get you are being sarcastic but you know it isnt. Rachel is a grown ass woman. The immature child that Claremont wrote longing for Jean to mother her did her no favors and we are long past that. The two are in a relatively good place where their connection is acknowledged but Jean isnt her actual mother and they both realize that and arent trying to force a relationship that never existed. They can have a new one based on who the characters are in 616, but its a terrible idea for Rachel to share the memories of her mother with Jean and use that as a foundation to move forward.
    That's fine, I believe Marvel editorial agrees with you that Jean and Rachel have no connection. So the only thing that could happen for her as a character is to be paired up with Cable which is what I suspect they will do if they don't permanently bench her.

  2. #1637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Jean isnt her mother and shouldnt try to replace her. Im with Askani in thinking that this would not be a good idea.
    Using that very same logic I'm guessing here that you don't believe Jean is Nathan's genetic mother either despite what was printed, huh?



    Or, that Scott is her father.


  3. #1638
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    That's fine, I believe Marvel editorial agrees with you that Jean and Rachel have no connection. So the only thing that could happen for her as a character is to be paired up with Cable which is what I suspect they will do if they don't permanently bench her.
    Except that’s not what I said. There is a connection and both characters acknowledge it

    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    Using that very same logic I'm guessing here that you don't believe Jean is Nathan's genetic mother either despite what was printed, huh?



    Or, that Scott is her father.


    You are putting words into my mouth. Stick to what I actually write. Thank you
    Last edited by Havok83; 09-17-2019 at 02:51 PM.

  4. #1639

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Except that’s not what I said. There is a connection and both characters acknowledge it
    You have expressly said Jean is not her mother period. That means they aren't connected to each other, they are acquaintances who both happen to be on the X-Men and nothing more than that. If Jean is not Rachel's mother then they aren't related, they aren't even that close in the end because they barely interact. But in the end you are technically correct, the Jean Grey who gave birth to Rachel died when Rachel was 6 years old, the Scott Summers who was Rachel's true father died when she was around 10 years old the day the mansion was attacked and she was taken by the Hound Program. Rachel Summers' parents are both dead and that is the technical truth.

    What you are saying is that it's time for Rachel to embrace the truth of her existence, her parents are dead, and she no longer has a family.

  5. #1640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Except that’s not what I said. There is a connection and both characters acknowledge it




    You are putting words into my mouth. Stick to what I actually write. Thank you
    I did say I was guessing didn't I?

  6. #1641
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    You have expressly said Jean is not her mother period. That means they aren't connected to each other, they are acquaintances who both happen to be on the X-Men and nothing more than that. If Jean is not Rachel's mother then they aren't related, they aren't even that close in the end because they barely interact. But in the end you are technically correct, the Jean Grey who gave birth to Rachel died when Rachel was 6 years old, the Scott Summers who was Rachel's true father died when she was around 10 years old the day the mansion was attacked and she was taken by the Hound Program. Rachel Summers' parents are both dead and that is the technical truth.

    What you are saying is that it's time for Rachel to embrace the truth of her existence, her parents are dead, and she no longer has a family.
    Exactly. As someone with Asperger's, it is a difference that I've had to struggle to learn for most of my life: What Havok said is 100% true Rachel and Jean are not family, never have been, never will be. That is 100% comic canon, and nothing can change that. But pointing it out to her fans like that is a massive dick move. It the mentality of "Sorry your feelings got hurt, not my problem."
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  7. #1642
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    You have expressly said Jean is not her mother period. That means they aren't connected to each other, they are acquaintances who both happen to be on the X-Men and nothing more than that. If Jean is not Rachel's mother then they aren't related, they aren't even that close in the end because they barely interact. But in the end you are technically correct, the Jean Grey who gave birth to Rachel died when Rachel was 6 years old, the Scott Summers who was Rachel's true father died when she was around 10 years old the day the mansion was attacked and she was taken by the Hound Program. Rachel Summers' parents are both dead and that is the technical truth.

    What you are saying is that it's time for Rachel to embrace the truth of her existence, her parents are dead, and she no longer has a family.
    They dont have to be a mother/daughter relationship in order to be connected. They will always be connected by the very nature of how intertwined their history and association to the same characters. Jean has accepted Rachel into her family and has even referred to her as daughter but they dont have an actual mother/daughter relationship bc Jean technically isnt her mother. She didnt birth her nor did she raise her and thats fine. The ship has sailed on that and I dont know what exactly more is expected from Jean at this point. How does she parent someone only a few years younger than her? Its not realistic to expect her to. They have a different type of relationship and I think having that be defined is more interesting than Jean stepping in for Rachel's deceased mother

  8. #1643
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    They dont have to be a mother/daughter relationship in order to be connected. They will always be connected by the very nature of how intertwined their history and association to the same characters. Jean has accepted Rachel into her family and has even referred to her as daughter but they dont have an actual mother/daughter relationship bc Jean technically isnt her mother. She didnt birth her nor did she raise her and thats fine. The ship has sailed on that and I dont know what exactly more is expected from Jean at this point. How does she parent someone only a few years younger than her? Its not realistic to expect her to. They have a different type of relationship and I think having that be defined is more interesting than Jean stepping in for Rachel's deceased mother
    Because the whole thing is grossly offensive to children who have been adopted? Telling your adopted kid "I'm not your real parent, your real parents are dead and you'll just have to live with that" maybe true, it's also being a massive jerk.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  9. #1644
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Exactly. As someone with Asperger's, it is a difference that I've had to struggle to learn for most of my life: What Havok said is 100% true Rachel and Jean are not family, never have been, never will be. That is 100% comic canon, and nothing can change that. But pointing it out to her fans like that is a massive dick move. It the mentality of "Sorry your feelings got hurt, not my problem."
    Odd how some of our fellow Posters never refute Ruby Summers' parentage... Hell, some of said posters even pray that she travels from Earth-1191 so she can be with Earth-616 Scott and emma as if she's their biological daughter.
    Last edited by Shreene; 09-17-2019 at 04:39 PM.

  10. #1645
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Because the whole thing is grossly offensive to children who have been adopted? Telling your adopted kid "I'm not your real parent, your real parents are dead and you'll just have to live with that" maybe true, it's also being a massive jerk.
    Its a good thing Jean never adopted Rachel so this comparison doesnt hold up

  11. #1646
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Its a good thing Jean never adopted Rachel so this comparison doesnt hold up
    Hold up to what? A universe where clones, alternate dimensions, and anything remotely supernatural don't exist? It's the closest possible connection to a real world connection there is.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  12. #1647
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Hold up to what? A universe where clones, alternate dimensions, and anything remotely supernatural don't exist? It's the closest possible connection to a real world connection there is.
    You read that correctly and no its not a fair real world comparison bc the argument being made isnt that Jean is someone who's adopted Rachel has abandoned her. People are treating Jean as if she is Rachel's actual mother bc of her genetics and that would be more analogous to a bio mother who gave her child up for adoption. Jean had nothing to do with her birth or upbringing and its not fair to thrust that onto her

  13. #1648
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    You read that correctly and no its not a fair real world comparison bc the argument being made isnt that Jean is someone who's adopted Rachel has abandoned her. People are treating Jean as if she is Rachel's actual mother bc of her genetics and that would be more analogous to a bio mother who gave her child up for adoption. Jean had nothing to do with her birth or upbringing and its not fair to thrust that onto her
    Yeah it happens all the time. Mothers give up their kids. The kids try and find them to create a connection. Usually if the parent who gave them up isn't a jerk (or dead), they're willing. You're saying it's not fair for Jean to even try to make that connection? Do you even remotely understand the character in the slightest? Telling Rachel to fuck off is something I would expect from the members of the Frost family, not Jean.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  14. #1649

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    You read that correctly and no its not a fair real world comparison bc the argument being made isnt that Jean is someone who's adopted Rachel has abandoned her. People are treating Jean as if she is Rachel's actual mother bc of her genetics and that would be more analogous to a bio mother who gave her child up for adoption. Jean had nothing to do with her birth or upbringing and its not fair to thrust that onto her
    And because Rachel desperately wants Jean to be her mother that means the only solution for Jean is to stay as far away from Rachel as possible so she never has to deal with that pressure of this young woman who wants Jean to be her Mom.

    I go back to what I said before, the only solution to have what you want is for Rachel to stop interacting with Jean and Scott. They aren't her friends, they are barely acquaintances, the only thing she ever had to link to them was genetics but beyond that there has been little to no interaction. You want Jean to be free of this pressure and obligation, then Rachel needs to accept that her parents are dead and these people are strangers and have no connection to her. Probably the best thing is for Rachel to leave the X-Men and join the Exiles and never interact with Scott and Jean from the 616 universe again so that she doesn't cause them undue stress with her overwhelming desire to have her parents back.

    I get it, Jean needs to be preserved from all this pressure, heck this is probably why they put her back in the Marvel Girl uniform so that Jean can go back to being a helpless female character in X-Men who needs to be rescued all the time because she can't deal with any type of pressure or obligation.

  15. #1650
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Yeah it happens all the time. Mothers give up their kids. The kids try and find them to create a connection. Usually if the parent who gave them up isn't a jerk (or dead), they're willing. You're saying it's not fair for Jean to even try to make that connection? Do you even remotely understand the character in the slightest? Telling Rachel to fuck off is something I would expect from the members of the Frost family, not Jean.
    Do you because thats exactly what Jean did when they first met. They've moved long past that though and Ive never said or insinuated that its the attitude that both should carry going forward

    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    And because Rachel desperately wants Jean to be her mother that means the only solution for Jean is to stay as far away from Rachel as possible so she never has to deal with that pressure of this young woman who wants Jean to be her Mom.

    I go back to what I said before, the only solution to have what you want is for Rachel to stop interacting with Jean and Scott. They aren't her friends, they are barely acquaintances, the only thing she ever had to link to them was genetics but beyond that there has been little to no interaction. You want Jean to be free of this pressure and obligation, then Rachel needs to accept that her parents are dead and these people are strangers and have no connection to her. Probably the best thing is for Rachel to leave the X-Men and join the Exiles and never interact with Scott and Jean from the 616 universe again so that she doesn't cause them undue stress with her overwhelming desire to have her parents back.

    I get it, Jean needs to be preserved from all this pressure, heck this is probably why they put her back in the Marvel Girl uniform so that Jean can go back to being a helpless female character in X-Men who needs to be rescued all the time because she can't deal with any type of pressure or obligation.
    Does Rachel desperately want Jean to be her mother? That seems to be something a select group of fans would like and its what Claremont wrote but it hasnt been the case in over a decade. Rachel's made peace and has matured quite a bit. I really dont think she is portrayed as someone that is still desperate for Jean

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