Rachel Summers/Grey Appreciation 2019

[Daedra]

Strong disagree. Rachel, despite the strength and fun of her time with Excalibur, would have been a stronger character concept had she not been host of the Phoenix, but exhibited Phoenix-like psychic powers... leading to even more paranoia amongst the traumatized X-Men, and the development of her own brand kit of unique signatures.

Loathe as I am to Claremont's wildly imaginative interpretations of telekinesis, if Rachel's telekinesis expressed itself in tandem with pyrokinesis, or was far stronger when she was angry (hulk), she'd have a unique niche among the crowd of female psychics at Xavier's. I've even suggested that her mutant-tracking ability that made her an ideal Hound be boosted to mutation-enhancing, or mutation-dampening, like Avatar:LOK's removal-of-bending trick.

that would have been interesting and fun as well, but I'm one of those fans that believe she is kind of genetically linked to the force (which people are free to disagree with) so on second thought I should have worded my opinion better or differently
Now that I think about it I really like your take and it reminds me something

[Daedra]

The hulk rachel parallel evoked by CRaymond reminded me of this :

rachel3d.jpg

[CRaymond]

that would have been interesting and fun as well, but I'm one of those fans that believe she is kind of genetically linked to the force (which people are free to disagree with) so on second thought I should have worded my opinion better or differently

Absolutely your opinion and preferences are your own. It's my observation that the Rachel character concept doesn't work well unless she's removed from her mother, and presented with a skillset that exists outwith the cosmic amplification of the phoenix force. I agree she's adept at harnessing the Phoenix, but her specific time with the force was throttled by the Jeanix spirit. I would prefer to see a more neurotic, defensive, punk-rock and pissed-off Rachel than a pleasantly content cosmic godhead.

Now that I think about it I really like your take and it reminds me something

Exactly. A seemingly crazy girl who says she's a Summers from the future, looks exactly like Jean Grey, behaves like Wolverine, and has incredible telekinetic strength that carries waves of telepathic agony? Of course they'd think she was a Phoenix manifestation. She doesn't need the Phoenix for everyone to think she has it. They'd protect her and still keep her at arm's length because of their own trauma and uncertainty, leading to even MORE neuroses from Rachel. Of course Kitty would befriend her most intimately, because Kitty wasn't traumatized by the events of the DPS.

[Daedra]

Wanted to add some further reasoning, when I think about rachel I always see a legacy character and following the way Claremont approached her link with the phoenix I can't help but consider the whole thing on "hegelian philosophy" terms : green phoenix was the "thesis" and dark phoenix the "antithesis", rachel to me was always the "synthesis" and the way forward.

Absolutely your opinion and preferences are your own. It's my observation that the Rachel character concept doesn't work well unless she's removed from her mother, and presented with a skillset that exists outwith the cosmic amplification of the phoenix force. I agree she's adept at harnessing the Phoenix, but her specific time with the force was throttled by the Jeanix spirit. I would prefer to see a more neurotic, defensive, punk-rock and pissed-off Rachel than a pleasantly content cosmic godhead.



Exactly. A seemingly crazy girl who says she's a Summers from the future, looks exactly like Jean Grey, behaves like Wolverine, and has incredible telekinetic strength that carries waves of telepathic agony? Of course they'd think she was a Phoenix manifestation. She doesn't need the Phoenix for everyone to think she has it. They'd protect her and still keep her at arm's length because of their own trauma and uncertainty, leading to even MORE neuroses from Rachel. Of course Kitty would befriend her most intimately, because Kitty wasn't traumatized by the events of the DPS.

I can tell i would have enjoyed reading this very much, your rachel reminds me of the headstrong and brush girl that infiltrated the hellfire club as escort just to take her revenge on selene...... that rachel was such a joy to read

[CRaymond]

Wanted to add some further reasoning, when I think about rachel I always see a legacy character and following the way Claremont approached her link with the phoenix I can't help but consider the whole thing on "hegelian philosophy" terms : green phoenix was the "thesis" and dark phoenix the "antithesis", rachel to me was always the "synthesis" and the way forward.

Eh, dichotometric philosophies leave me cold. I prefer encapsulating growth structures.

I can tell i would have enjoyed reading this very much, your rachel reminds me of the headstrong and brush girl that infiltrated the hellfire club as escort just to take her revenge on selene...... that rachel was such a joy to read

I honestly think cosmic philosophy was a pet trope of Claremont's that he always wants to return to and always misses the mark. His strength was always in emotional character work, and it's where all his characters should be begun and explored from.

[Daedra]

Eh, dichotometric philosophies leave me cold. I prefer encapsulating growth structures.





I honestly think cosmic philosophy was a pet trope of Claremont's that he always wants to return to and always misses the mark. His strength was always in emotional character work, and it's where all his characters should be begun and explored from.

You made some valid points, I agree about Claremont, here is to punk rachel (by claremont)!

rachel3e.jpg

[CRaymond]

What is Rachel’s middle name?

[Daedra]

What is Rachel’s middle name?

Anne, why?

[Askani's Flame]

What's your thought on P5?

I really was not a fan of it to be honest. There was a lot about AvX that I disliked for a variety of reasons, and this was lower on the end of things. At first I was like, ok it knows Emma and through Emma-Jean-Rachel Scott. Namor, Colossus, and Magik I was like okkkkk. Then they got beat by mundane heroes or did ridiculous things with their hive mind. And it became clear the X-Men and Phoenix Force were meant to be the villains. So The execution was real shitty. So not a fan of the 5 selected and the way they portrayed them once they were Phoenix-ed.

P5 was a series of massive contrivances and plot errors, and I LIKE the event.

The Phoenix clearly scanned the Earth when it got hit by Iron Man's death ray. It universally prefers empaths, usually telepaths. Feron, Jean, Rachel, Emma, Cuckoos, etc. So why did it go to two of the least empathic people possible (Magik and Namor)? Because reasons.

Emma makes sense. She's been a host before twice. Scott makes sense. Jean is the WPotC. Piotr kinda makes sense. He's the most empathic person on the X-Men who isn't a straight empath. But Magik and Namor? Fuck no.

Obviously that's just one of the giant clusterfuck of mistakes the event made, but that's par for the course when crossovers happen.

Yup. Why it didn't just go into Rachel, QQ, and The Cuckoos? Why didn't Wolverine OR Cyclops talk to Rachel? REASONS....... that editorial made up because they wanted one particular type of story vs a well thoughtout one.

And yet none of the five idiots with the Phoenix fractions decided to go, I don't know, restore the mutant race. Seriously, when you sit on the floor going on an angst fest since M-Day about mutant extinction, I expected that to be the first thing on your mind, not forging a utopia, when it comes to great power.

YUP

Im not sure Rachel will be involved. I mean she was in promotional art for Disassembled and didnt show up

I believe the difference is, and I could be wrong, that Brooks was asked to draw these characters specifically on this promotional piece whereas the artist for that large "Disassembled" piece was told to 'draw all the X-Men'. It's very interesting that Brooks chose that particular Rachel look (with hound marks) vs her iconic red hound Phoenix look. It's also likely that Rachel could have been saved at the end of Extermination like the rest, but when Brisson was given the greenlight to move forward with X-Force that changed and the Disassembled artist wasn't made aware.

Doesnt mean they'll be used in a significant capacity. Im still not convinced that Rachel isnt going away in X-Force. I think a past version or AR version of her may appear but the current Rachel wont be

I'm hesitantly optimistic that Rachel will return. Phoenix or not. I don't think they can say she has to stay in the future, as currently that future is after Mother Askani has died already.

Strong disagree. Rachel, despite the strength and fun of her time with Excalibur, would have been a stronger character concept had she not been host of the Phoenix, but exhibited Phoenix-like psychic powers... leading to even more paranoia amongst the traumatized X-Men, and the development of her own brand kit of unique signatures.

Loathe as I am to Claremont's wildly imaginative interpretations of telekinesis, if Rachel's telekinesis expressed itself in tandem with pyrokinesis, or was far stronger when she was angry (hulk), she'd have a unique niche among the crowd of female psychics at Xavier's. I've even suggested that her mutant-tracking ability that made her an ideal Hound be boosted to mutation-enhancing, or mutation-dampening, like Avatar:LOK's removal-of-bending trick.

Well remember that initially Rachel becoming the Phoenix was similar to Jean where it was the near-ultimate expression and power of their abilities. It was only once Jean was resurrected that the concept of the Phoenix Force changed and that was partly the reason Rachel was sent away. But I do like your ideas on her abilities you've listed.

[CRaymond]

Anne, why?

Was hoping it would(could) be Ororo.

[PsychoEFrost]

I really was not a fan of it to be honest. There was a lot about AvX that I disliked for a variety of reasons, and this was lower on the end of things. At first I was like, ok it knows Emma and through Emma-Jean-Rachel Scott. Namor, Colossus, and Magik I was like okkkkk. Then they got beat by mundane heroes or did ridiculous things with their hive mind. And it became clear the X-Men and Phoenix Force were meant to be the villains. So The execution was real shitty. So not a fan of the 5 selected and the way they portrayed them once they were Phoenix-ed.



Yup. Why it didn't just go into Rachel, QQ, and The Cuckoos? Why didn't Wolverine OR Cyclops talk to Rachel? REASONS....... that editorial made up because they wanted one particular type of story vs a well thoughtout one.



YUP



I believe the difference is, and I could be wrong, that Brooks was asked to draw these characters specifically on this promotional piece whereas the artist for that large "Disassembled" piece was told to 'draw all the X-Men'. It's very interesting that Brooks chose that particular Rachel look (with hound marks) vs her iconic red hound Phoenix look. It's also likely that Rachel could have been saved at the end of Extermination like the rest, but when Brisson was given the greenlight to move forward with X-Force that changed and the Disassembled artist wasn't made aware.



I'm hesitantly optimistic that Rachel will return. Phoenix or not. I don't think they can say she has to stay in the future, as currently that future is after Mother Askani has died already.



Well remember that initially Rachel becoming the Phoenix was similar to Jean where it was the near-ultimate expression and power of their abilities. It was only once Jean was resurrected that the concept of the Phoenix Force changed and that was partly the reason Rachel was sent away. But I do like your ideas on her abilities you've listed.

I explained why they couldn't undo the Curse of M already. Cyclops during the event did talk to Rachel. She helped him and Emma escape detection because of how Logan was acting around the Phoenix.

[kevinism]

Naw she's just RAGS

[WallStreeter]

Magik can't use Chaos magic. She hadn't been fully trained as a sorceress yet.

Hope was literally the only person who could end the curse, but Scott didn't trust her with the Phoenix after she freaked out on the moon. By the time she was ready, the P5 was too far gone in their own designs.

Magik is fully trained by Dr. Strange, though that had not happened at the time she got possessed by the Phoenix. After she was possessed by the Phoenix, her broken mutant powers were causing her to siphon magical energies from Limbo and wherever Dormammu lives. After she defeated Dormammu, she went to Dr. Strange for help and he trained her.

To the point where she has appeared in Strange's book along with other major sorcerers like the Scarlet Witch and Dr. Voodoo to help him.

[PsychoEFrost]

Magik is fully trained by Dr. Strange, though that had not happened at the time she got possessed by the Phoenix. After she was possessed by the Phoenix, her broken mutant powers were causing her to siphon magical energies from Limbo and wherever Dormammu lives. After she defeated Dormammu, she went to Dr. Strange for help and he trained her.

To the point where she has appeared in Strange's book along with other major sorcerers like the Scarlet Witch and Dr. Voodoo to help him.

Correct. Hence why I said she "hadn't" been trained, not "hasn't".

[Askani's Flame]

I explained why they couldn't undo the Curse of M already. Cyclops during the event did talk to Rachel. She helped him and Emma escape detection because of how Logan was acting around the Phoenix.

No, I mean that they knew the Phoenix was coming for Hope, and Scott was training her solo to be prepared for it. But didn't reach out to Rachel to assist at the start of things. Rachel was only reached out AFTER so she could be the mole. She was purposely ignored to make the plot "work". Again, if you know this entity is coming to Earth and you have concerns or think someone needs to be trained on how to host it, YOU MIGHT WANT TO ASK THE MOST EXPERIENCED HOST THAT IS YOUR DAUGHTER/COLLEAGUE. Instead Spider-Man seemingly gave her the best training with buckets of water.