Rachel Summers/Grey Appreciation 2019

[Vaishakh]

Adding to the name thing, I dont think she should use Summers as a way to differentiate herself from Jean but to use it to strengthen her connection with Scott. She has a lot of connections with Jean(appearance,power,Phoenix) but not much with Scott other than the name Summers. Having her go Grey would basically remove the last connection she has with Scott who is her father in name only and has very little contact with her in first place.

[Askani's Flame]

Adding to the name thing, I dont think she should use Summers as a way to differentiate herself from Jean but to use it to strengthen her connection with Scott. She has a lot of connections with Jean(appearance,power,Phoenix) but not much with Scott other than the name Summers. Having her go Grey would basically remove the last connection she has with Scott who is her father in name only and has very little contact with her in first place.

To be fair I would say that Scott has had just as much Rachel contact and care as Jean has, if not slightly more. Jean has been shown in the books on 5 occasions to be kind and caring to Rachel: Excalibur 71, X-Men 30 at their wedding, Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix 4 when they embrace Rachel is sending her back to the past, X-Men Red Annual, and X-Men Red 9.

Scott has done the same with Rachel here: Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix 3 where he says he loves her and is sorry for not being a better father when he had the chance, X-Men 165 when he "gifts" her John and Elaine Grey for Christmas, Uncanny X-Men 468 where he comforts her in trying to save her family, Uncanny X-Men 469 where he comforts her and says he's proud of her for taking the Grey name, X-Men 248 when Scott calls her sweetheart and proclaims to bring her back as her "Revenant" form is fading, X-Men 250 when Scott vows to do everything he can to save her, that moment during the Mojo crossover with Tyke where they are both interacting and caring for each other, and X-Men Gold 32 when Scott talks down Rachel during her "Dark Saga".

So really he has more moments, and one could argue that he should have had way more given the amount of time they co-existed after Jean's death. But I think her time as "Rachel Grey" should be over. I feel like overall it's been a dark period for her full of characterization and ability inconsistencies.

[RachelGrey]

Adding to the name thing, I dont think she should use Summers as a way to differentiate herself from Jean but to use it to strengthen her connection with Scott. She has a lot of connections with Jean(appearance,power,Phoenix) but not much with Scott other than the name Summers. Having her go Grey would basically remove the last connection she has with Scott who is her father in name only and has very little contact with her in first place.

I think if Rachel does come back to the present and use "Summers" it's probably just going to be a "going back to the beginning" thing for her. It's not anything against either parent, it'll probably be Rachel just trying to figure out who she is again and trying to overcome everything that was done to her in the last year. Hopefully she'll try to reconnect with both of her parents.

I am going to go back to what I think is the most realistic expectation, I think I want Rachel and Cable to be permanently on a team together. This way it will be impossible for writers to ignore the relationship with Jean and Scott, because you have a brother/sister team and whenever they see their parents they will always be family with each other. Everyone knows Rachel and Cable are brother and sister, and everyone knows that Jean and Scott are their parents, you pair Rachel and Cable on a team and they will always be acting like family when they see their parents.

I would like them to explore how devastated Rachel was when Cable died in Extermination. If she goes back in time to save the older Cable, I would love to have her tell Cable that she couldn't live in a world where her brother was gone so she found a way to bring him back just like kid Cable did for Scott. It would also be nice to explore Rachel's reaction to finding out her Dad is alive again. Then you have Jean's reaction to seeing Rachel restored and returned to her, along with Cable. It would be nice to see a real mother and daughter moment where she breaks down when she finds out that Rachel is restored.

I really hope that Hickman explores the family dynamic because I feel like that's one of the strengths of the X-Men, the X-Men are a melding of the Fantastic Four which is always about family, and the Avengers who fight together. The X-Men is more family than the Avengers and more like the Fantastic Four because of it.

[Vaishakh]

I think if Rachel does come back to the present and use "Summers" it's probably just going to be a "going back to the beginning" thing for her. It's not anything against either parent, it'll probably be Rachel just trying to figure out who she is again and trying to overcome everything that was done to her in the last year. Hopefully she'll try to reconnect with both of her parents.

I dont think Rachel going back to beginning is a bad thing considering her current situation. I would not be against a hard reset pretty much erasing last 20 or so years of her stories.

[RachelGrey]

I dont think Rachel going back to beginning is a bad thing considering her current situation. I would not be against a hard reset pretty much erasing last 20 or so years of her stories.

A good writer would explore the PTSD and depression and period of recovery that Rachel needs after the last 2 years. They did it with Jessica Cruz in "Green Lanterns" and in her run in "Justice League". Marvel could do the same with Rachel and actually look at how all of this has impacted Rachel and how hard it is for her to overcome it.

I wasn't meaning a hard reset I just meant it would be great if a writer showed Rachel going through a period of self reflection and exploration where she has to come to terms with everything that has happened. The hound reversion is Rachel's worst nightmare come true and in a real person that would not be easy to get over and would require some ongoing therapy.

[Vaishakh]

A good writer would explore the PTSD and depression and period of recovery that Rachel needs after the last 2 years. They did it with Jessica Cruz in "Green Lanterns" and in her run in "Justice League". Marvel could do the same with Rachel and actually look at how all of this has impacted Rachel and how hard it is for her to overcome it.

I wasn't meaning a hard reset I just meant it would be great if a writer showed Rachel going through a period of self reflection and exploration where she has to come to terms with everything that has happened. The hound reversion is Rachel's worst nightmare come true and in a real person that would not be easy to get over and would require some ongoing therapy.

Is it possible to salvage her from current mess, absolutely but will there be anyone willing to put the required effort, nope. It will be much easier and overall better to just nuke all the terrible stuff and never talk about it again. If writers want to write about her trauma then there are better sources to go through instead of the current shitshow.

[JudicatorPrime]

6. Psi-Hawk - Alternate Earth Rachel Grey, who married her universe's Emmet Proudhawk and formed the Psi-Force with him before his untimely demise. (Note: the Phoenix Force never manifested in their alternate reality. The Psi-Force is the equivalent.) Psi-Hawk is the wildcard. But for Adam's experiments, she would have never seen the beacon to 616 Earth. She plays a big part in the team's success. Immediate simpatico with Monica, but is also drawn to Thor’s nobility of character. Reminiscent of her Emmet.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post4411357

So I wrote this in a thread in the Marvel forum regarding a hypothetical Avengers team. I was mostly trying to think of a way to get Rachel/Phoenix on an Avengers team without it actually being the Phoenix Force. With Ewing introducing Psi-Force and Psi-Hawk in the pages of the Ultimates and firmly grounded in 616, I figured that would be a great twist: Rachel would be the sole Psi-Force host, the yin to the Phoenix Force's yang, truly Light Incarnate as opposed to the destructive Chaos Bringer. Some tweaking would be necessary (e.g., I'd ditch the Psi-Hawk team and manifestation, but keep the silver raptor form for Rachel), but would something like this work in the pages of the X-Men? How married is everyone to the concept of Rachel as the Phoenix Force wielder, and only the Phoenix Force wielder?

[Askani's Flame]

So I wrote this in a thread in the Marvel forum regarding a hypothetical Avengers team. I was mostly trying to think of a way to get Rachel/Phoenix on an Avengers team without it actually being the Phoenix Force. With Ewing introducing Psi-Force and Psi-Hawk in the pages of the Ultimates and firmly grounded in 616, I figured that would be a great twist: Rachel would be the sole Psi-Force host, the yin to the Phoenix Force's yang, truly Light Incarnate as opposed to the destructive Chaos Bringer. Some tweaking would be necessary (e.g., I'd ditch the Psi-Hawk team and manifestation, but keep the silver raptor form for Rachel), but would something like this work in the pages of the X-Men? How married is everyone to the concept of Rachel as the Phoenix Force wielder, and only the Phoenix Force wielder?

I'm always weary of creating an AU of a character to make them fit a box or niche on a team. I don't know anything about this Psi-Force/Hawk but it it means having an AU Rachel around personally I'm not interested. Either she's being used as is or she's not. I think the past decade has brought too many alternate universe versions of characters into the X-verse that has been a problem. Like, how old is this Rachel? If there is no Phoenix Force, how did she travel back in time to be an adult and marry this Emmet guy at this point (cuz she'd likely be a child if born and aged via Marvel)? How does she then come to this universe? So there are two Rachel's now, or have you completely rewritten her backstory and just one version? I'm confused.

To answer your specific question, given that the concept of the Phoenix Force and who a wielder is has changed dramatically since Rachel last was the sole host I don't think it matters. She wielded the PF, but since the 90's she hasn't an it's been passed around like an STI to various people. I also don't think the concept of the Phoenix Force is as simple as Chaos Bringer (which is technically Stryfe's name/title) as you put it. Unless this is an entirely new character I can't see the current version of Rachel just being like "Hey remember when I was Phoenix for all those years and time and referenced a bunch? Just kidding never happened I had this entirely other Force in me."

I applaud you for this cool idea, I just don't think it's feasible for the Rachel fan that I am.

[Maestro 216]

Not sure if Rachel could work on the Avengers. Considering how many times the poor girl ends up brainwashed by some villain or bigot.

[Askani's Flame]

Not sure if Rachel could work on the Avengers. Considering how many times the poor girl ends up brainwashed by some villain or bigot.

Depends on the writer. I think she could do really well on the Avengers if they moved past the constant mind control trope. The Avengers saw her as a threat during AvX and tried to take her out, and they are in dire need of a good tp/tk powerhouse. Plus it would get her away from Jean where she will always remain just be cast aside or nerfed as they can't co-exist.

[JudicatorPrime]

I'm always weary of creating an AU of a character to make them fit a box or niche on a team. I don't know anything about this Psi-Force/Hawk but it it means having an AU Rachel around personally I'm not interested. Either she's being used as is or she's not. I think the past decade has brought too many alternate universe versions of characters into the X-verse that has been a problem. Like, how old is this Rachel? If there is no Phoenix Force, how did she travel back in time to be an adult and marry this Emmet guy at this point (cuz she'd likely be a child if born and aged via Marvel)? How does she then come to this universe? So there are two Rachel's now, or have you completely rewritten her backstory and just one version? I'm confused.

To answer your specific question, given that the concept of the Phoenix Force and who a wielder is has changed dramatically since Rachel last was the sole host I don't think it matters. She wielded the PF, but since the 90's she hasn't an it's been passed around like an STI to various people. I also don't think the concept of the Phoenix Force is as simple as Chaos Bringer (which is technically Stryfe's name/title) as you put it. Unless this is an entirely new character I can't see the current version of Rachel just being like "Hey remember when I was Phoenix for all those years and time and referenced a bunch? Just kidding never happened I had this entirely other Force in me."

I applaud you for this cool idea, I just don't think it's feasible for the Rachel fan that I am.

Thanks for your reply, you make some great points.

Let me clarify that I was only using an AU Rachel for the hypothetical Avengers team. For this discussion, I was curious to know if the "real" Rachel as a Psi-Force entity would work.

By the way, the whole Psi-Hawk/Psi-Force material comes from a Marvel imprint (The New Universe) from the 1980s. As with Starbrand and others, Marvel has integrated those characters into 616 with varying degrees of success.

[JudicatorPrime]

Not sure if Rachel could work on the Avengers. Considering how many times the poor girl ends up brainwashed by some villain or bigot.

True, she does have a history of being vulnerable. But a writer could introduce the Psi-Force as a means of eliminating that particular vulnerability, if not bring the reasons behind that vulnerability to light so that Rachel can address it once and for all. Her lack of psionic defense is really odd, though. It's like seeing Albert Einstein routinely fail at a basic math flashcard game to elementary school students.

[Vaishakh]

True, she does have a history of being vulnerable. But a writer could introduce the Psi-Force as a means of eliminating that particular vulnerability, if not bring the reasons behind that vulnerability to light so that Rachel can address it once and for all. Her lack of psionic defense is really odd, though. It's like seeing Albert Einstein routinely fail at a basic math flashcard game to elementary school students.

It has been more or less established that her Hound conditioning is what causes her to be vulnerable to mind control and the only real way is to rid of it completely

[JudicatorPrime]

It has been more or less established that her Hound conditioning is what causes her to be vulnerable to mind control and the only real way is to rid of it completely

Yep, I figured. Which tells me that she's broken in a way that the PF couldn't heal, fix or overwrite. I don't mind Rachel being damaged irrevocably in some ways, just like I don't mind Storm's claustrophobia. But it would be nice if Rachel's victimization as a hound wasn't repeatedly exploited in that way. At some point the cerebral callouses have to form, right? I hope so. It would be cool to see them establish that because she has been brainwashed and mentally co-opted so often, it's now next to impossible to do so. Rachel should be like those snake charmers that have been bitten so many times that they now have a built up natural resistance to venin.

[Vaishakh]

Yep, I figured. Which tells me that she's broken in a way that the PF couldn't heal, fix or overwrite. I don't mind Rachel being damaged irrevocably in some ways, just like I don't mind Storm's claustrophobia. But it would be nice if Rachel's victimization as a hound wasn't repeatedly exploited in that way. At some point the cerebral callouses have to form, right? I hope so. It would be cool to see them establish that because she has been brainwashed and mentally co-opted so often, it's now next to impossible to do so. Rachel should be like those snake charmers that have been bitten so many times that they now have a built up natural resistance to venin.

Phoenix already did fix her in Excalibur and she was cured of it for a while but she went through a reset after she lost the Phoenix Echo. This is one of reasons why I think last 20 years of her story should be erased and only keep End of Greys as canon.