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  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by fridric View Post
    Maybe, this time they give her the PF to differenciate her from her mother. I found bizarre the fact in X-Force 9 cover showing Phoenix Ray and the cover for HoX/PoX doing the same.
    Giving her the Phoenix,something that Jean is known for as a way of differentiating her from Jean is not a good idea. If they really wanted to differentiate her, retcon her powers to something else.

  2. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishakh View Post
    I dont know why they decided to give Rachel the PF instead of Jean but that does not mean that she has a place in the upcoming Hickman books. She is in a corner behind most other characters.
    I don't think Hickman doesn't use her if she is on an official cover for his event. I don't know what the importance of her role in these books. But I know one thing: she is represented compared to a lot of much more important/popular characters who are not on this cover. So my question is why her on this cover if Hickman doesn't use her because I don't think it's the Mavel editors who want this when they want to banish her from the X-titles??? So, that's why I have hope for Rachel's future development.
    Last edited by fridric; 05-23-2019 at 11:45 AM.

  3. #903
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fridric View Post
    Maybe, this time they give her the PF to differenciate her from her mother. I found bizarre the fact in X-Force 9 cover showing Phoenix Ray and the cover for HoX/PoX doing the same.
    It's unclear if she's getting the Phoenix Force back in X-Force. As we know, covers lie or exaggerate things. I would be rather surprised if she regained it, but seeing as she was a long and even-balanced wielder it wouldn't be a bad thing. I am don't see her getting the Phoenix in 9 but still being under Stryfe's control in 10 (per the solicits), as that would be insult to injury for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishakh View Post
    I dont know why they decided to give Rachel the PF instead of Jean but that does not mean that she has a place in the upcoming Hickman books. She is in a corner behind most other characters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishakh View Post
    Giving her the Phoenix,something that Jean is known for as a way of differentiating her from Jean is not a good idea. If they really wanted to differentiate her, retcon her powers to something else.
    Well they can't retcon her powers at this point as she's far too established a character. but i don't disagree that if the purpose to differentiate Rachel from Jean is the Phoenix Force, they've made a fatal error.

    Quote Originally Posted by fridric View Post
    I don't think Hickman doesn't use her if she is on an official cover for his event. I don't know what the importance of her role in these books. But I know one thing: she is represented compared to a lot of much more important/popular characters who are not on this cover. So my question is why her on this cover if Hickman doesn't use her because I don't think it's the Mavel editors who want this when they want to banish her from the X-titles??? So, that's why I have hope for Rachel's future development.
    She's not on a cover, she's shown on a poster of a variety of X-Men, villains, and others. If she were on a cover it would be on thing, but she's on an event poster for this. Like she has been before but not in the event. It bodes well, but it may not mean anything. We're in a wait and see scenario. But you're right, she's there and others aren't so that does mean something.

    I do agree with you the editors are not trying to banish her from the titles, but the writers (before Hickman) are writing her so poorly she may need to be taken off the shelf for a while to do some damage control.

  4. #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Well they can't retcon her powers at this point as she's far too established a character. but i don't disagree that if the purpose to differentiate Rachel from Jean is the Phoenix Force, they've made a fatal error.
    Retcon might not be the the way but they do need to change or modify her powers if Marvel wishes to differentiate her from Jean. I disagree that Rachel is too established to be retconned, if they can retcon Magneto's kids then Rachel's powers fall under way lower level of issues

  5. #905
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishakh View Post
    Retcon might not be the the way but they do need to change or modify her powers if Marvel wishes to differentiate her from Jean. I disagree that Rachel is too established to be retconned, if they can retcon Magneto's kids then Rachel's powers fall under way lower level of issues
    The difference I see with that is that Pietro and Wanda were retconned into being his kids in the first place. So they had the ability to pull the carpet out again. I'd be interested in seeing if they modified them, what they might look like. But I feel like it would be a cop out in that she has to be altered in some major way in order to coincide with Jean in the books when they are both perfectly capable of existing with good writers/editors.

  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    The difference I see with that is that Pietro and Wanda were retconned into being his kids in the first place. So they had the ability to pull the carpet out again. I'd be interested in seeing if they modified them, what they might look like. But I feel like it would be a cop out in that she has to be altered in some major way in order to coincide with Jean in the books when they are both perfectly capable of existing with good writers/editors.
    I think current situation with Rachel is not a lack of good writers/editors but due to lack of interest in the character since she is pretty much a lesser Jean in terms of power and her history is a mess since her return from Askani. One way to revitalise interest would be to either remove developments of last few years by a mindwipe or change up her powerset to give her more roles

  7. #907
    Fantastic Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    With the Dark Phoenix movie coming out, you'd expect either Jean or Rachel being the Phoenix again. But I'm not sure that's a movie that's really going to drive comic sales.

  8. #908
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    no more phoenix force pls. ray needs to move on. it will trap her in space and we'll never see her in stories again.

  9. #909
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    Hickman is the one writer that can be trusted to get the Phoenix right, judging by his track records.

  10. #910
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    Look, the problem with Phoenix stories is the titular character itself.

    Jean is not the Phoenix. Rachel is not the Phoenix. Hope is not the Phoenix. The Phoenix Five aren't the Phoenix.

    The Phoenix is a cosmic entity without much characterization. In fact, the 1990s animated series probably gave it the most characterization of any media except possibly for Phoenix Resurrection.

    Compare that to other cosmic entities like Galactus and the First Firmament.

    When you think of Galactus, you see a god-like being who eats plants but honors his word. When you think of the First Firmament, you think of a clingy, jealous abomination who reminds you of Sephiroth's "all shall be one with me plan." When you think of Death, you think of shallow and manipulative and at the same time, claims to be the "end of suffering."

    Whereas all these cosmic entities have personalities, despite being pretty flat due to their natures as representing love, hate, chaos, and whatnot, they have characterizations. The Phoenix's sole character trait is a fetish for redheads in spandex.

  11. #911
    Incredible Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    Look, the problem with Phoenix stories is the titular character itself.

    Jean is not the Phoenix. Rachel is not the Phoenix. Hope is not the Phoenix. The Phoenix Five aren't the Phoenix.

    The Phoenix is a cosmic entity without much characterization. In fact, the 1990s animated series probably gave it the most characterization of any media except possibly for Phoenix Resurrection.

    Compare that to other cosmic entities like Galactus and the First Firmament.

    When you think of Galactus, you see a god-like being who eats plants but honors his word. When you think of the First Firmament, you think of a clingy, jealous abomination who reminds you of Sephiroth's "all shall be one with me plan." When you think of Death, you think of shallow and manipulative and at the same time, claims to be the "end of suffering."

    Whereas all these cosmic entities have personalities, despite being pretty flat due to their natures as representing love, hate, chaos, and whatnot, they have characterizations. The Phoenix's sole character trait is a fetish for redheads in spandex.
    If it were me bringing the Phoenix back with Rachel, I would actually make it that she isn't the host for the Phoenix at all this time around. All those resurrections she has experienced have caused a portion of the Phoenix force to permanently bond with her and it's growing more powerful each time she taps into it. In a sense, Rachel is truly a "baby Phoenix" and every time she taps into that power or dies and is resurrected her power level keeps increasing. Of course a story like this would probably lead into a "Dark Rachel" storyline at some point, she may not try to destroy the entire Earth, but she might leave the X-Men and start killing their enemies aggressively. Rachel certainly has a reason to go all "Dark Rachel" on the Shi'ar and that would be an interesting turn of events if she goes to the Empire and hunts down every single being that was involved in the "Death of the Greys". It would also create an interesting conundrum for everyone, because she wouldn't be a host, she would be a Phoenix in her own right, which would make removing the power from her very difficult and probably temporary at best.

  12. #912
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    Look, the problem with Phoenix stories is the titular character itself.

    Jean is not the Phoenix. Rachel is not the Phoenix. Hope is not the Phoenix. The Phoenix Five aren't the Phoenix.

    The Phoenix is a cosmic entity without much characterization. In fact, the 1990s animated series probably gave it the most characterization of any media except possibly for Phoenix Resurrection.

    Compare that to other cosmic entities like Galactus and the First Firmament.

    When you think of Galactus, you see a god-like being who eats plants but honors his word. When you think of the First Firmament, you think of a clingy, jealous abomination who reminds you of Sephiroth's "all shall be one with me plan." When you think of Death, you think of shallow and manipulative and at the same time, claims to be the "end of suffering."

    Whereas all these cosmic entities have personalities, despite being pretty flat due to their natures as representing love, hate, chaos, and whatnot, they have characterizations. The Phoenix's sole character trait is a fetish for redheads in spandex.
    Resurrection really helped with the characterization, but part of the mythos was shrouding the character in mystery, and having her be interpreted by those affected rather than the personality itself. The Jeen Grey solo helped with it a lot. And keeping it mysterious works... when it is used sparingly and properly. Having Jason Aaron use it for whatever pet project hurts the bird.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  13. #913
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishakh View Post
    I think current situation with Rachel is not a lack of good writers/editors but due to lack of interest in the character since she is pretty much a lesser Jean in terms of power and her history is a mess since her return from Askani. One way to revitalise interest would be to either remove developments of last few years by a mindwipe or change up her powerset to give her more roles
    What developments? She hasn't had anything positive happen to her character since AvX when she trounced Thor and other Avengers. Otherwise she has been slowly de-evolved into a snarling drooling mindless hound.

    God I miss Aaron's Rachel during IvX now....

  14. #914
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    What developments? She hasn't had anything positive happen to her character since AvX when she trounced Thor and other Avengers. Otherwise she has been slowly de-evolved into a snarling drooling mindless hound.

    God I miss Aaron's Rachel during IvX now....
    I was talking more from everything from Reloaded era except for End of Greys(only real major plot point) and some reference to her fighting in space(I doubt she going back there).

  15. #915
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaishakh View Post
    I was talking more from everything from Reloaded era except for End of Greys(only real major plot point) and some reference to her fighting in space(I doubt she going back there).
    Oh I would be TOTALLY fine with that. I'm still convinced that Gaunt sent a fake Rachel back with Cable and our Rachel is still floating somewhere in the timestream.

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