Titans/Teen Titans Appreciation 2019

[Frontier]

Riri actually has a personality. It might rub some readers the wrong way and some might say her personality isn't very good but it's there. Riri comes off as an eccentric genius with limited social skills who does her own thing. The only thing memorable about Steel is her lack of...everything.

In general I'd say Natasha has a lot more personality then she's apparently being depicted with in Abnett's run, but that's what you get when a characters is there to just a fill a slot and not because the writer really cares about them.

[darud]

Agree. I liked the Fab 5 and thought it was an opportunity to take these established characters and show how they've grown into their own to be peers of the League and maybe something better because they were friends/family unlike the League. This is something Nightwing said on the last panels of 36. I feel the Fab 5 incarnation was unsuccessful because Abnet feel into the trap that many writers of the Fab 5 do: writing them as former sidekicks who are still taking orders from their mentors. It felt as there was no growth for these characters and instead, they were moving backwards to sidekicks, like when the League disbanded them. I think the Fab 5 can be a successful and interesting team if we can just move past them portrayed as sidekicks or still getting out of the shadow of their mentors. Many have been members of the League themselves so, it's ridiculous that they need the Leagues approval to do anything.

I for one I think that the NTT are the definitive, classic and by far the most successful Titans team. The problem with the fab 5 is that they can never get out of their status of former sidekicks, it's their history, their characters were formed with that status at the base. To move at the level or above Justice League status the DC need to downgrade or even abandon the JL or many of its core members to make place for their former juniors. That won't happen in the predictable future. Maybe just Wally was able to take the Flash name as the more definitive Flash but even he was eventually shafted. I simply can't see Dick becoming Batman for good, or Donna taking the place and surpassing for good WW. Sure, you can have story arcs with SUperman of tomorrow who is a former Superboy, stuffs like that, but I doubt you'll ever get the Fab 5 fully replacing and surpassing their former (or still) seniors.

On the other hand the NTT doesn't had that weight. They were formed by Raven, a completely new and different character with no ties with JL but original and pwoerful enough to even take them down if the situation arise. They were lead by Dick who moved away from being Robin, Batman sidekick, and become something of his own, leading a team that could rival the JL. Starfire was an alien princess able to rival Diana, Donna herself at that point wasn't a former WW sidekick and had a life of her own, Beast Boy was also an original character who at some point refused to join JL and instead asked them to join the Titans, Cyborg was again an original character unrelated with JL and Wally, as I said, was able to be successful enough to become maybe the most proeminent Flash.

This should be the way to make the Titans, a combo of characters that together are not that tied to JL (even if some were rised as juniors of some JL members) and are powerful enough on their own to rival the JL and be an more independent team

[byrd156]

I for one I think that the NTT are the definitive, classic and by far the most successful Titans team. The problem with the fab 5 is that they can never get out of their status of former sidekicks, it's their history, their characters were formed with that status at the base. To move at the level or above Justice League status the DC need to downgrade or even abandon the JL or many of its core members to make place for their former juniors. That won't happen in the predictable future. Maybe just Wally was able to take the Flash name as the more definitive Flash but even he was eventually shafted. I simply can't see Dick becoming Batman for good, or Donna taking the place and surpassing for good WW. Sure, you can have story arcs with SUperman of tomorrow who is a former Superboy, stuffs like that, but I doubt you'll ever get the Fab 5 fully replacing and surpassing their former (or still) seniors.

On the other hand the NTT doesn't had that weight. They were formed by Raven, a completely new and different character with no ties with JL but original and pwoerful enough to even take them down if the situation arise. They were lead by Dick who moved away from being Robin, Batman sidekick, and become something of his own, leading a team that could rival the JL. Starfire was an alien princess able to rival Diana, Donna herself at that point wasn't a former WW sidekick and had a life of her own, Beast Boy was also an original character who at some point refused to join JL and instead asked them to join the Titans, Cyborg was again an original character unrelated with JL and Wally, as I said, was able to be successful enough to become maybe the most proeminent Flash.

This should be the way to make the Titans, a combo of characters that together are not that tied to JL (even if some were rised as juniors of some JL members) and are powerful enough on their own to rival the JL and be an more independent team

Beast Boy was a part of the Doom Patrol and joined the original Teen Titans before the NTT.

[darud]

Beast Boy was a part of the Doom Patrol and joined the original Teen Titans before the NTT.

Yes, but he wasn't a clear sidekick of anyone and didn't come with that baggage. He even declined at some point to join the newly formed JL and asked them to better join him in the Titans team, that was the status at some point.

I belive Titans should be a more independent and original team to be able to move away from JL shadow first, and secondly, to have members famous and powerful enough to rival the said JL and not be relegated to some secondary events under JL supervison or orders.
The NTT were the perfect combo of this, with few former sidekicks moving away from their mentors shadow to become something else and something of their own (like Dick becoming Nightwing, not a new or future Batman since Bruce Batman is hard to ever replace but at least he could be rivaled as it was the case). Or with original characters not related with JL or formerly under their shadows, and powerful enough to easily rival (even surpass) any of the JL members and do things on their own, sometimes above even JL paygrade and abilities

[primenumber101]

To me, it is kinds of ironic that Beast Boy, the character whom few fans have complained about de-aging him in resent comics, is actually second oldest character out of main 5 members from cartoon, right after Robin.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, the other three all debuting simultaneously in New Teen Titans #1 39 years ago.

[byrd156]

Yes, but he wasn't a clear sidekick of anyone and didn't come with that baggage. He even declined at some point to join the newly formed JL and asked them to better join him in the Titans team, that was the status at some point.

I belive Titans should be a more independent and original team to be able to move away from JL shadow first, and secondly, to have members famous and powerful enough to rival the said JL and not be relegated to some secondary events under JL supervison or orders.
The NTT were the perfect combo of this, with few former sidekicks moving away from their mentors shadow to become something else and something of their own (like Dick becoming Nightwing, not a new or future Batman since Bruce Batman is hard to ever replace but at least he could be rivaled as it was the case). Or with original characters not related with JL or formerly under their shadows, and powerful enough to easily rival (even surpass) any of the JL members and do things on their own, sometimes above even JL paygrade and abilities

The Titans have been out of the League's shadow for decades. It's the current heads at DC that are pushing this idea that they are lesser and it's been catching steam. The treatment of these characters is the issue, not their connection or lack thereof to the League.

[SiegePerilous02]

I for one I think that the NTT are the definitive, classic and by far the most successful Titans team. The problem with the fab 5 is that they can never get out of their status of former sidekicks, it's their history, their characters were formed with that status at the base. To move at the level or above Justice League status the DC need to downgrade or even abandon the JL or many of its core members to make place for their former juniors. That won't happen in the predictable future. Maybe just Wally was able to take the Flash name as the more definitive Flash but even he was eventually shafted. I simply can't see Dick becoming Batman for good, or Donna taking the place and surpassing for good WW. Sure, you can have story arcs with SUperman of tomorrow who is a former Superboy, stuffs like that, but I doubt you'll ever get the Fab 5 fully replacing and surpassing their former (or still) seniors.

On the other hand the NTT doesn't had that weight. They were formed by Raven, a completely new and different character with no ties with JL but original and pwoerful enough to even take them down if the situation arise. They were lead by Dick who moved away from being Robin, Batman sidekick, and become something of his own, leading a team that could rival the JL. Starfire was an alien princess able to rival Diana, Donna herself at that point wasn't a former WW sidekick and had a life of her own, Beast Boy was also an original character who at some point refused to join JL and instead asked them to join the Titans, Cyborg was again an original character unrelated with JL and Wally, as I said, was able to be successful enough to become maybe the most proeminent Flash.

This should be the way to make the Titans, a combo of characters that together are not that tied to JL (even if some were rised as juniors of some JL members) and are powerful enough on their own to rival the JL and be an more independent team

I agree. It's essential to have the Fab 5 members (or...at least Dick and Donna. Wally too if he isn't with the JL. Roy and Garth not as much as the other three), but relying on them alone isn't the best way to make the Titans stand apart from the JL. They started their fictional existences as mini versions of their mentors (Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Aqualad, etc.), and their adult incarnations look too similar to their mentors just with color swapped outfits, like counterfeit action figures lol. It's hard to distance them. Nightwing is the only one that can truly stand alone, but he still has issues escaping Batman's shadow. Donna and Garth would be better with their Jimenez costumes and displaying abilities their mentors don't have. You really need the NTT lineup as the definitive one, but that still includes the Fab 5: Dick and Donna were arguably the leads of that run, Wally was a series regular for large parts of it, and Roy and Garth still guest starred quite a bit. So why just have a Fab 5 reunion when you can just have the full major team instead of cutting it in half? The NTT crew (all nine members) is pretty much their equivalent of the Big Seven for the JL.

Of course, relying on aping that era isn't going to work either. The recent announcement of Hickman for the X-Men says the X-Men franchise had three game changing issues: Giant Size X-Men #1, the Claremont/Lee X-Men #1, and Morrison's New X-Men. The Titans pretty much have NTT#1, but don't have anything else after that. First the X-Men swapped out all its members save Cyclops for new characters, then in the 90s they combined the best of both teams (the O5 plus Wolverine, Storm, Colossus and newer members like Rogue, Gambit and Psylocke), and then Morrison pushed the X-Men into the new millennium with new ideas and putting new spins on old favorites (Jean and the Phoenix, Magneto's new Brotherhood and Asteroid M, a dark possible future, etc.). Hickman's teaser images show X-Men from all the iconic eras with promises of new things, and an easy jumping on point. Which all the previous milestones were as well.

The Titans need that desperately. The NTT reunions are played out, BUT it's also due to them having writers like Winick and Abnett instead of Claremont (in his prime), Morrison or Hickman. They need a big name writer who embraces the best of the old and injects a LOT of new to push them into a new era. They don't need to take the spot of the JL anymore than the X-Men needs to take the spot of the Avengers, they just need a writer to give a damn about them and downplay any and all connections to the JL beyond the basic backgrounds of the Fab 5. DC can't or won't do that.

[Krivus]

What I do not understand is why there can be three Leagues of Justice and only one team of Titans?
Also the Titans of Wolfman need to leave the shadow of the cartoon.

[skyvolt2000]

Unlike many here, I was actually enjoying Abnett's Titans when it was the Fab 5, Omen and Bumblebee. But I have to say, from the get go, the Source Patrol Titans was awful. The team had no chemestry. Steel was a plot device (and seriously? With Donna, who is basically Wonder Woman's level of power, and Miss Martian, Steel is supposed to be the "heavy hitter" of the team?), and a bad one at that. She's like DC's Iron Heart, and like over at Marvel, her adult counterpart is waaaayyyyy more interesting. Give us back John Henry "Steel" Irons. Beastly Gar with out of control powers didn't work the first time they tried this gimmick (at the end of Wolfman's run), and it didn't work now. Taking Nightwing out of the board was a shot on the foot for the book. Dick was central to many plots in the book (such as they were), and while I like him, Kyle was not up to the job of replacing him. I really hope the next incarnation of Titans is better.

Peace

Riri had a personality. It's hard for folks to see it because too many take issue with her being a black female, actually showing some intelligence, her creator being Bendis & the current writer being a black female.

Natasha has not been interesting since the days of Steel having his own book be it under her female creator or Priest-who wrote her like the niece of McDuffie (since his run was really about him).

Natasha is a victim of what a LOT of characters at DC suffer from-lack of interest and some concept of just tossing them in book (for diversity purposes) with no development is acceptable from editorial.

Then when it's time to butcher folks at the alter of events lead by the Trinity whose the first choices.

She like Supergirl's boyfriend had no business in this book.

[Frontier]

Riri had a personality. It's hard for folks to see it because too many take issue with her being a black female, actually showing some intelligence, her creator being Bendis & the current writer being a black female.

Natasha has not been interesting since the days of Steel having his own book be it under her female creator or Priest-who wrote her like the niece of McDuffie (since his run was really about him).

Natasha is a victim of what a LOT of characters at DC suffer from-lack of interest and some concept of just tossing them in book (for diversity purposes) with no development is acceptable from editorial.

Then when it's time to butcher folks at the alter of events lead by the Trinity whose the first choices.

She like Supergirl's boyfriend had no business in this book.

I thought she was interesting in 52 (not that it ended well for her) and Superwoman.

I don't see why she shouldn't have been in the book. She just should've been used better and not as a slot filler.

And is it so wrong to have Ben Rubel in the book ?

[Nomads1]

Riri had a personality. It's hard for folks to see it because too many take issue with her being a black female, actually showing some intelligence, her creator being Bendis & the current writer being a black female.

Natasha has not been interesting since the days of Steel having his own book be it under her female creator or Priest-who wrote her like the niece of McDuffie (since his run was really about him).

Natasha is a victim of what a LOT of characters at DC suffer from-lack of interest and some concept of just tossing them in book (for diversity purposes) with no development is acceptable from editorial.

Then when it's time to butcher folks at the alter of events lead by the Trinity whose the first choices.

She like Supergirl's boyfriend had no business in this book.

I don't have any issue with her being black, female, showing intelligence nor being written by a black female ( her being created by Bendis certainly is not a very promising sign, though). I just think that teen "intuitive tech genius" is a really flimsy plot device, and make for awful characters, especially when that is basically what they've got going for them and they are poor copies of older and much more complex and interesting characters. No matter how smart you are, engineering is a subject where experience and accumulated knowledge counts as much, if not much more than "being visionary". And the two qualities I listed come with age. I know the "genius" of the comics business believe that teens are the target audience for comics, and that teens are only intrested in reading about teens ( both assumptions that I dispute, and that are, IMHO, contributing to killing the industry), but I really think that "characters" like Riri, Moon Girl, Teen Steel, Maybe even Valeria Richards, etc... ( oddly enough, I found that Nadia Pym had an interesting backstory that justifies her abilities, which, IMHO, are not as blown out of proportion as the other characters listed) really challenge the suspension of disbelief.

Peace

[adrikito]

Teen Titans 29 preview:

[adrikito]

the rest of this issue:

[Grandmaster_J]

That's a long preview. At least answers my question a month ago about how he found it, the previous Deathstroke part of the crossover did nothing and was mediocre all the way around.