Titans/Teen Titans Appreciation 2019

[Digifiend]

Heh. That would be quite funny from a meta perspective, as there's a Bombshell in the Champions now.

Oh and lastly: let's be honest, JL Odyssey is a Titans book. No one can convince me otherwise.

They probably called it JL because of it having two members of the Rebirth JL team (Jessica and Cyborg). But it also has two Titans (Starfire and Cyborg).

[king81992]

Ok, let see how IÂ’m gonna do this.



The JL has a core that legitimately draws, and even still they expand beyond that core all the time. Constantly adding and removing new members from all over. The Titans being restricted to just the same handful of characters is a limitation that doesnÂ’t help them expand to new audiences.

And with YJ, and this new teen line that the Teen Titans is not part of, its going to be vary hard for the Teen Titans to exists next to that. Especially when DC is more then likely not going to put the same about of support into both. Very soon TT is not gonna be in a good position, and the Titans is well just a joke. So maybe instead of having 2 teams they arenÂ’t going to know what to do with, come up with something that tries to combine the strengths of both and just do one Titans team. ItÂ’s working for the show.



Runaways and Champions are very different, and maybe ideally there could be room for both but that has not been the track record with DC. You really see them putting the same kind of support into both, cause i donÂ’t. Teen Titans is going to get buired under the new, and better supported, teen line.



I think this is being a bit idealistic. You have the Fab 5 and then the NTTs. And most of those characters are hardly in great or strong shape. And its easy to say so and so can be turned into something, but thatÂ’s just hypothetical. The strongest character the Titans did have, it did nothing but crap on or ignore. But thats ok cause he has a solo, and all the others were in much more need of development (I say this sarcastically).

The current TT was always going to be in a bad position because the roster is mostly new characters. They'll be fine as long as the current writer is in charge but will the next writer be willing to keep Crush, Djinn and Roundhouse around? Considering how DC treats the already established Titans/TT the future is not to bright for the new guys.

[Restingvoice]

Heh. That would be quite funny from a meta perspective, as there's a Bombshell in the Champions now.

They probably called it JL because of it having two members of the Rebirth JL team (Jessica and Cyborg). But it also has two Titans (Starfire and Cyborg).

One Titan. Cyborg's mostly known in New 52 Rebirth as a Leaguer.

[Digifiend]

He's still well known as a Titan too, mainly thanks to Teen Titans Go. Also, his past history has been restored to him (that must be so, else he and Starfire couldn't be called "old friends" in JL Odyssey - they were strangers in New 52), so he is an ex-Titan in the current comics.

[byrd156]

I think the Teen Titans roster with Lorena, Kid Devil, Static, Bombshell and some others is what appeals to me because it doesn’t feel like a safe choice. I’m tired of things being safe all the time.

What does safe even mean?

[Raijin]

What does safe even mean?

Uh is this bait? The usual members obviously. I like that roster consisted of the ones I named because it was a mix and match of different characters. Instead of the Fab Five or the NTT group.

[Badou]

Someone compared the Titans to the X-Men a few posts ago, and I think that's an entirely fair assessment. The Titans and the X-Men were each others' biggest competition back in the 80s and with good reason. They ended up telling the same kinds of stories (see: good, iconic ones) and they have a fair number of most of the iconic characters at DC comics within their roster; all things considered there are as many iconic characters from within the Titans that people want to see as there are in the JL, the large majority of them at least introduced within the first "generation" of Titans. Which also largely presents a problem.

You can only have so many books before you begin to cannibalize the line. With three (or two, depending on how you see it) books you are less likely to do that but more likely not to include the characters that people want to see, for the most part, or not be allowed to - which seems to be the biggest problem with the crop of titles that we have at present. We have iconic characters like Donna Troy, Beast Boy, Raven, Robin (x2), Superboy, Impulse, Wonder Girl, and kind of Kyle Raynor's Green Lantern - and then new or lesser known heroes, which is fine, but it comes at the expense of other heroes that people want to see stories told with.

The Titans could at least have one more book to themselves as long as the concept stayed a little bit different - something like Titans East and Titans West even if not called that for the fact that the current team being featured in Titans isn't particularly situated in one place. It doesn't even need to be called Titans. Give it a plot that squarely separates it from Titans, Teen Titans, and Young Justice and fill it with the characters that aren't around anywhere and that people want to see; particularly, Bumblebee, since she seems be one of the heroes DC wants to push most in outside media except she's nowhere within the comics themselves? And profit. Maybe this is where Nightwing goes when he's back to his senses too, so that Donna can have her own team.

It's really that simple.

All it takes is a fresh approach that doesn't cannibalize what else is going on in the line. There are plenty of characters to throw into these things and plenty of them are the characters that people want to see here. Oh, and editorial? Stop killing them off for the hell of it. People will only get madder.

Oh and lastly: let's be honest, JL Odyssey is a Titans book. No one can convince me otherwise.

A big difference with the X-Men is that they were allowed to grow up. The O5 were the same ages as the original Titans at one point. Now they are firmly adults and no one even questions it. You don't have Cyclops or Beast being looked down on by other adult heroes at Marvel for being too young. That would be ridiculous. Even the younger second generation X-Men are treated like adults like Rogue and Kitty who are even younger than the O5, but the Titans still get treated as being too young. Repeatedly. Despite being adults for decades. It is just a symptom of having these adult Titans continue to be stuck in the Titans franchise that is designed for young characters. It is so frustrating.

I think the JL: Odyssey book is a good example of what the adult Titans should be. They need to move on and form new teams with new characters. Leave the Titans branding behind and quit repeating the same teams and same stories that we've seen done to death in the Titans. Leave that to the actual young characters of the DCU. As for JL: Odyssey being a Titans book I don't think it really counts. Only really Starfire is a Titan on it and I think the inclusion of Darkseid kind of puts it in JL category because he is a JL villain and not a Titans one.

He's still well known as a Titan too, mainly thanks to Teen Titans Go. Also, his past history has been restored to him (that must be so, else he and Starfire couldn't be called "old friends" in JL Odyssey - they were strangers in New 52), so he is an ex-Titan in the current comics.

I don't think his past has been restored. Abnett wrote that when Dick was Robin early in his career that Cyborg was already on the JL. So Cyborg was on the JL before the Titans were even formed. He might have been close to the Titans but current continuity still has him in the JL and not once has he been mentioned to be on any Titans team properly.

[byrd156]

A big difference with the X-Men is that they were allowed to grow up. The O5 were the same ages as the original Titans at one point. Now they are firmly adults and no one even questions it. You don't have Cyclops or Beast being looked down on by other adult heroes at Marvel for being too young. That would be ridiculous. Even the younger second generation X-Men are treated like adults like Rogue and Kitty who are even younger than the O5, but the Titans still get treated as being too young. Repeatedly. Despite being adults for decades. It is just a symptom of having these adult Titans continue to be stuck in the Titans franchise that is designed for young characters. It is so frustrating.

I think the JL: Odyssey book is a good example of what the adult Titans should be. They need to move on and form new teams with new characters. Leave the Titans branding behind and quit repeating the same teams and same stories that we've seen done to death in the Titans. Leave that to the actual young characters of the DCU. As for JL: Odyssey being a Titans book I don't think it really counts. Only really Starfire is a Titan on it and I think the inclusion of Darkseid kind of puts it in JL category because he is a JL villain and not a Titans one.



I don't think his past has been restored. Abnett wrote that when Dick was Robin early in his career that Cyborg was already on the JL. So Cyborg was on the JL before the Titans were even formed. He might have been close to the Titans but current continuity still has him in the JL and not once has he been mentioned to be on any Titans team properly.

It's not a symptom of the franchise, it's a symptom of the higher ups looking down on these characters.

[WallyWestFlash]

38bebbb9a407ff75025f79eabbd10704._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

lol!!

[byrd156]

38bebbb9a407ff75025f79eabbd10704._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

lol!!

Garth's expression here is one of my favorites.

[Badou]

It's not a symptom of the franchise, it's a symptom of the higher ups looking down on these characters.

No, it is the franchise. When it is decades and decades of this it goes beyond just the higher ups not liking certain characters. Forcing the characters to remain in a franchise that is defined by youth prevents the adult characters from actually growing up and being treated like adults. You can't separate the two when they are together and is why the series seems to run into the same problems again and again.

[byrd156]

No, it is the franchise. When it is decades and decades of this it goes beyond just the higher ups not liking certain characters. Forcing the characters to remain in a franchise that is defined by youth prevents the adult characters from actually growing up and being treated like adults. You can't separate the two when they are together and is why the series seems to run into the same problems again and again.

What are these awful decades? I'm not really a numbers guy but I know The Titans didn't do so hot in the 70s revival but then exploded into popularity in the 80s. The New Titans in the 90s was decent sales along with Jurgens and later Grayson's. I don't know the sales of the mid 2000s Titans run but Geoff Johns got praise for his TT.

Okay lets pretend that the Titans are the problem. What's the solution? Throw them on other teams, form new teams, what do is the solution here?

[king81992]

What are these awful decades? I'm not really a numbers guy but I know The Titans didn't do so hot in the 70s revival but then exploded into popularity in the 80s. The New Titans in the 90s was decent sales along with Jurgens and later Grayson's. I don't know the sales of the mid 2000s Titans run but Geoff Johns got praise for his TT.

Okay lets pretend that the Titans are the problem. What's the solution? Throw them on other teams, form new teams, what do is the solution here?

The awful decades are more about the quality of the writing and not sales. 90s Titans(particularly under Wolfman)was garbage and Johns gets a huge free pass for all the damage he did to the franchise.

Assuming that the Titans are the problem(the problem is actually writers not making an effort to try new things), the first step is to retool some of them and avoid rehashing old storylines at all costs. If your going to develop them, do it in a way that doesn't devalue their characters.

For starters:

Simplify Donna's origins. WW's little sister(by blood or adoption will do)

Do not transfer Cyborg's 'Am I a monster or a man?' narrative to BB.

This one is controversial but retool Terra into an anti-hero and make it stick. It would actually be a new direction.Writers have used the Judas Contract as a crutch for too long and repeat that nonsense with other characters.

Stop killing off Titans for shock value.

[byrd156]

The awful decades are more about the quality of the writing and not sales. 90s Titans(particularly under Wolfman)was garbage and Johns gets a huge free pass for all the damage he did to the franchise.

Assuming that the Titans are the problem, the first step is to retool some of them and avoid rehashing old storylines at all costs. If your going to develop them, do it in a way that doesn't devalue their characters.

For starters:

Simplify Donna's origins. WW's little sister(by blood or adoption will do)

Do not transfer Cyborg's 'Am I a monster or a man?' narrative to BB.

This one is controversial but retool Terra into an anti-hero and make it stick. It would actually be a new direction.Writers have used the Judas Contract as a crutch for too long and repeat that nonsense with other characters

That last one is still using the Judas Contract as a crutch by keeping her alive. She died, she was supposed to die, let her die and stay dead already.

Other than Wolfman's 90s stuff it was a pretty great time to me. As for the writing it ranges from great to bad just like any long running team for 40 plus years. I've read the entire history of the Titans up to the reboot and it is no more bad or broken than the Justice League, Outsiders, JSA, etc.

[king81992]

That last one is still using the Judas Contract as a crutch by keeping her alive. She died, she was supposed to die, let her die and stay dead already.

Other than Wolfman's 90s stuff it was a pretty great time to me. As for the writing it ranges from great to bad just like any long running team for 40 plus years. I've read the entire history of the Titans up to the reboot and it is no more bad or broken than the Justice League, Outsiders, JSA, etc.

Using the Judas Contract as a crutch has nothing to do with Terra being alive or not. Writers have rehashed it regardless of Terra's status. Franchise needs to move beyond telling the same old story with different characters.