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  1. #1036
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The book's failure is it was literally not allowed to function on the main premise it was started by.
    Just posting what Abnett himself said. It is why in his second Titans run after disbanding the Fab5 team he deiced to try and focus on a "mission statement" and have the team be more professional. Still, his poor characterizations is what ultimately ruined the book. Dick, Wally, Donna he never really wrote well.
    Last edited by Badou; 05-28-2019 at 10:46 PM.

  2. #1037
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I'm amazed that there are those that still defend Abnett's Titans as good. I can understand it if you are so desperate for anything from these characters together that you would accept it. Like a person dying of thirst would think dirty water is the best thing they have ever drunk, but the run was dreadful. It was such an insulting book to anyone who valued these characters pre-New 52 in my eyes. The story and characterizations were so bad and I don't think Abnett had a clue on what to do with them. Sure, it wasn't all on him given the editorial and management problems, but the story he put to paper was very poor.

    Now I try and make my biases known and the biggest reason why I think the run sucked, which were MANY, was his characterization of Dick. You could tell early on that he had a terrible grasp of his character all the way back to Titans Hunt. Him running away scared, getting beaten up, putting Dick in his Nightwing costume randomly, and being competently ineffectual were giant warning signs that many missed because they were so drunk on nostalgia at the time. I'd still argue that Abnett's Dick is the worst characterization in the character's history. I don't think anyone wrote him worse.



    What is funny is that Abnett later admitted that the thing you liked about that run is the reason why it failed. He cited that the "friendship" focus is what lead to the books downfall in his eyes.

    And these friendships were completely hollow in my eyes. Dick and Donna despite being the two closest over Titans history I think had like one conversation in the whole first run in the series. I never got a real sense of friendship between any of them that wasn't just very shallow "look at us being friends and eating pizza together" type stuff.



    Me! lol
    Saying good things about a run doesn't mean it's a good run or defending it by any means. You can also complain and nitpick about something good and that doesn't mean it's bad.

    I think there is something there at the start of Abnett's run but he demolishes it and the series quickly becomes crap.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

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  3. #1038
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Just posting what Abnett himself said. It is why in his second Titans run after disnabing the Fab5 team he decied to try and focus on a "mission statement" and have the team be more professional. Still, his poor characterizations is what ultimately ruined the book. Dick, Wally, Donna he never really wrote well.
    The idea of a mission statement and "professionalism" is so stupid to begin with. That's not what the Titans needs. It needs to be a series like Teen Titans Go now that I think about it. And I know that sounds crazy but let me explain what I mean. Teen Titans Go is a very casual laid back approach to these characters that needs to be there. The downtime between fights, the camaraderie, the hijinks and relationships. They also need arcs that bounce around a wide range of topics from social issues to cosmic that is still very much connection between team members and adventure/action. TTG does this but on a much more kid-friendly slap-stick scale but is still a strong blueprint to jump off of. The idea of making the team uber serious or being underlings of the JL are misplaced and ill-advised. Focusing on a certain goal can be too limiting as well and eventually that goal will needs to be solved one way or another if that's their main mission. Success or failure, making it very binary is kinda boring if the threat and stakes aren't too well defined or explored otherwise you can either get super generic or focused on things other than the Titans that probably won't be coming back.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  4. #1039
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    The idea of a mission statement and "professionalism" is so stupid to begin with. That's not what the Titans needs. It needs to be a series like Teen Titans Go now that I think about it. And I know that sounds crazy but let me explain what I mean. Teen Titans Go is a very casual laid back approach to these characters that needs to be there. The downtime between fights, the camaraderie, the hijinks and relationships. They also need arcs that bounce around a wide range of topics from social issues to cosmic that is still very much connection between team members and adventure/action. TTG does this but on a much more kid-friendly slap-stick scale but is still a strong blueprint to jump off of. The idea of making the team uber serious or being underlings of the JL are misplaced and ill-advised. Focusing on a certain goal can be too limiting as well and eventually that goal will needs to be solved one way or another if that's their main mission. Success or failure, making it very binary is kinda boring if the threat and stakes aren't too well defined or explored otherwise you can either get super generic or focused on things other than the Titans that probably won't be coming back.
    The best 'mission statements' are McGuffins, casually mentioned in a first issue or first episode and then forever forgotten about.
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  5. #1040
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    The best 'mission statements' are McGuffins, casually mentioned in a first issue or first episode and then forever forgotten about.
    I'm not against them per se it's just that they seem in recent times they keep getting abandoned or not seen all the way through. Broader the better if you're going to use one. Like Star Trek has a great one explore space, boldly go where no one has gone before. Or Stargate, you have a bunch of gates that lead to different worlds to explore. Feels like exploring really is some of the best mission statements because it can feel like you are actually progressing with the heroes and things can feel like they actively effect the status quo outside of a roster change or character dynamic.

    If you have something to big or specific like the Source Wall for Titans it feels like too much and way out of left field for those characters.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  6. #1041
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    The idea of a mission statement and "professionalism" is so stupid to begin with. That's not what the Titans needs. It needs to be a series like Teen Titans Go now that I think about it. And I know that sounds crazy but let me explain what I mean. Teen Titans Go is a very casual laid back approach to these characters that needs to be there. The downtime between fights, the camaraderie, the hijinks and relationships. They also need arcs that bounce around a wide range of topics from social issues to cosmic that is still very much connection between team members and adventure/action. TTG does this but on a much more kid-friendly slap-stick scale but is still a strong blueprint to jump off of. The idea of making the team uber serious or being underlings of the JL are misplaced and ill-advised. Focusing on a certain goal can be too limiting as well and eventually that goal will needs to be solved one way or another if that's their main mission. Success or failure, making it very binary is kinda boring if the threat and stakes aren't too well defined or explored otherwise you can either get super generic or focused on things other than the Titans that probably won't be coming back.
    I think that only works with them as teens. I've said this over and over again so I don't want to get too much into it again. It is fine when they are teens as their mission statement, even if you don't see one, is still them learning to becomes heroes and working together. Elements like friendship can shine through. It is a very solid mission statement for a young team and a very common one. This is typically the core identity of the Titans franchise. When they are adults and have been heroes for years and years they need a more solid mission statement or purpose otherwise we get what Abnett did and it becomes lost and mindless and it can't just use "friendship" as what hold the entire team and book together. They comes across as useless compared to these other adult teams that are more focused in their purpose.

  7. #1042
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    I donít know if itís a matter of not being teens, or more a matter of existing at the same time with and next to a Teen Titans. Just being Titans isnít enough when there are more the one Titans book, and the adults donít have being teens to inherently help distinguish them.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-29-2019 at 02:03 AM.

  8. #1043
    Incredible Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    The idea of a mission statement and "professionalism" is so stupid to begin with. That's not what the Titans needs. It needs to be a series like Teen Titans Go now that I think about it. And I know that sounds crazy but let me explain what I mean. Teen Titans Go is a very casual laid back approach to these characters that needs to be there. The downtime between fights, the camaraderie, the hijinks and relationships. They also need arcs that bounce around a wide range of topics from social issues to cosmic that is still very much connection between team members and adventure/action. TTG does this but on a much more kid-friendly slap-stick scale but is still a strong blueprint to jump off of. The idea of making the team uber serious or being underlings of the JL are misplaced and ill-advised. Focusing on a certain goal can be too limiting as well and eventually that goal will needs to be solved one way or another if that's their main mission. Success or failure, making it very binary is kinda boring if the threat and stakes aren't too well defined or explored otherwise you can either get super generic or focused on things other than the Titans that probably won't be coming back.
    that only works when they're teens, As adults they'd look immature. Also thats what dc's actual current teen books are for. Hell that what the wonder comics line is for. Dc has both teen titans and young justice for the friendship stuff. They don't need the titans being that.
    Last edited by WonderNight; 05-29-2019 at 02:29 AM.

  9. #1044
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    I don’t know if it’s a matter of not being teens, or more a matter of existing at the same time with and next to a Teen Titans. Just being Titans isn’t enough when there are more the one Titans book, and the adults don’t have being teens to inherently help distinguish them.
    The Titans brand is youth though. Teens or young adults. It can't escape it. So you run into this problem of trying to show these adult heroes that have been at it for years as capable heroes but they are stuck in a franchise that is built around them not being these experienced veterans. They are constantly fighting against what the whole Titan's franchise identity is and it doesn't work. So they suffer more than most when they are competing with the JL teams. It is why I think when they become adults they should move on from the Titans and leave the franchise to the actual young heroes.

  10. #1045
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Maybe it doesn’t have to be though. Especially now the DC has YJ and this Wonder line of thiers.

  11. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    As hyperbole. They are not all garbage obviously, just Roy is (total garbage btw), but im exaggerating. Truth is i have become over the Fab 5, but i don't literally think Dick should beat um all up and ditch them cause they suck. Its more that im tired of Dick being portrayed as punching bag, not just when in come to the JL but when it comes to the Titans too. Cause the Titans don't move on with out him. When people are clamoring for other Titans to hit him, and for them to go on with out him, they have a problem. And honestly it kind of silly how much Dick gets hit by his friends, and brothers, and mentors and how ok its become. Im not ok with it anymore. It makes Dick look just as bad as him bending over to the JL. If Roy touches him again he needs to rip his arm off and beat him with it. Cause at the end of the day Dick has to go on with the Titans, and his solo, while Roy goes back to limbo. And this goes for them all. Dick's not a punching bag, and he's a Titan too.
    I mean, I don't see you having this outrage when Bruce lays a hand on Dick only when Roy or another Titan does it. So it's difficult to believe this isn't just you having an axe to grind with the Fab 5. There is no clamoring for people to hit Dick or for the Titans to move on without him. And seeing as how you have no trouble with Dick kicking Roy in Rise of Arsenal, I don't think you have much ground to stand on when Roy punches out Dick. You'll find that more people than not are sick of the constant in-fighting within the Titans and let's not behave as if Dick is the only Titan that has been subject to violence from his team mates.

    Oh and how is that solo working out for Dick again?

  12. #1047
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Ok, first I have that outrage plenty when others do it. Plus most of what I do here these days is just outrage. Second Roy murdered an innocent cat and then went after Dick with a knife in Rise of Arsenal. Which is just another example of Roy attacking Dick, yet again. So my ground remains pretty sturdy there. And third, ok.

    BTW, 60+ issues. Which is just unfortunate at this point. Now just imagine if anyone at DC tried to protect the character even just a little bit.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-29-2019 at 06:56 AM.

  13. #1048
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    that only works when they're teens, As adults they'd look immature. Also thats what dc's actual current teen books are for. Hell that what the wonder comics line is for. Dc has both teen titans and young justice for the friendship stuff. They don't need the titans being that.
    I don't see how living happy, healthy, adventurous lives in the DCU is immature. Fun is universal it doesn't matter what age you are and everyone needs it otherwise what's the point of living?
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  14. #1049
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Ok, first I have that outrage plenty when others do it. Plus most of what I do here these days is just outrage. Second Roy murdered an innocent cat and then went after Dick with a knife in Rise of Arsenal. Which is just another example of Roy attacking Dick, yet again. So my ground remains pretty sturdy there. And third, ok.

    BTW, 60+ issues. Which is just unfortunate at this point. Now just imagine if anyone at DC tried to protect the character even just a little bit.
    No one will ever defend or like Rise of Arsenal for serious reasons. It's just Roy getting crapped on the whole story while he runs around like a crazy person listening to a zombie ghost of his dead daughter and do horrible things. Holding that book against Roy is like holding Fortunate Son or All-Star Batman and Robin against Bruce or Dick.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  15. #1050
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    The Titans brand is youth though. Teens or young adults. It can't escape it. So you run into this problem of trying to show these adult heroes that have been at it for years as capable heroes but they are stuck in a franchise that is built around them not being these experienced veterans. They are constantly fighting against what the whole Titan's franchise identity is and it doesn't work. So they suffer more than most when they are competing with the JL teams. It is why I think when they become adults they should move on from the Titans and leave the franchise to the actual young heroes.
    Maybe with this in mind a good Titans roster should be a mix of older and younger members instead of leaning one way or another.

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