Titans/Teen Titans Appreciation 2019

[king81992]

That is a weird continuity. Since when is the JL training the TT?

It was mentioned in an earlier issue of JL that the League took all of the younger heroes under wing to combat the growing threat of the Dark Multiverse. This is probably going to bite them in the ass considering the rumors about the BWL's new Secret Six.

[Rac7d*]

It was mentioned in an earlier issue of JL that the League took all of the younger heroes under wing to combat the growing threat of the Dark Multiverse. This is probably going to bite them in the ass considering the rumors about the BWL's new Secret Six.

Poor Raven and Gar forever screwed up thy should mentors by now

[Grandmaster_J]

Its Lobo though. The same guy that BOTH Heaven and Hell kicked out and banned from dying so they don't have to deal with him.

Djinn's powerful. But she's not that powerful.

Yep. She already said that unless controlled her magic is very limited and can't go all out in order to stay hidden.

[Restingvoice]

It was mentioned in an earlier issue of JL that the League took all of the younger heroes under wing to combat the growing threat of the Dark Multiverse. This is probably going to bite them in the ass considering the rumors about the BWL's new Secret Six.

See if this is done way earlier I wouldn't be as mad that Justice League overruled Titans
I'm still going to be mad since they shouldn't be, they're adults, but at least they don't let the even younger and inexperienced heroes run free at the same time.

[Falcon16]

Cyborg is the cutest Titan ever and the hottest Titan ever. Just look at him.
Screen_Shot_2018-10-12_at_6.54.08_PM.jpg

[Frontier]

Cyborg is the cutest Titan ever and the hottest Titan ever. Just look at him.
Screen_Shot_2018-10-12_at_6.54.08_PM.jpg

Well, I'm not sure about "cute" .

[Jackalope89]

Anyway, daddy Lobo is toying with the Titans. And its actually pretty interesting (not just because Lobo's my favorite character), even says Crush was lucky not to have him raise her and what not.

Don't know if I should read too much into it, but yeah.

And not sure how the Titans are going to get out of this. Lobo is no pushover, even going head to head with most of the Justice League. Crush was, well, crushed, Djinn was bowled over, and the rest were swatted away like bugs.

[Falcon16]

Well, I'm not sure about "cute" .

Are you kidding? Cyborg was adorable the way George Perez drew him in the 80s issues! And (an') that dialect of his...

[adrikito]

TEEN TITANS: RAVEN Plunges Into Her Hopes & Fears (And with MARV WOLFMAN's Blessing):

https://www.newsarama.com/45798-teen...s-stories.html

[Tzigone]

I recently did a NTT re-read. Sometimes much more a re-skim. Hope you don't mind talk of old stories.

I think I stand by my initial opinion (from first reading) that the early years were best. There was some great stuff there. Building friendships, good arcs, developing characters, etc. I might come back later and post on specific issue and scenes I loved.

I think some time in 1984 (probably shortly after Judas Contract?), it faltered a little. I don't mind Terra being pretty much pure evil with no reason given (it's common enough for villains), but was disappointed with Slade not going down too, and being treated as not that bad by Gar in end (and giving him advice, etc. - left a very bad taste in my mouth). I'll grant you the man loved his sons - he's still a paid assassin, a villain. I didn't like him not be treated like it. I liked Jericho as a character, but still didn't feel the stories were as strong as they had been.

Don't get me wrong - there was still some great stuff. I enjoyed "Who is Donna Troy?" and the wedding. And plenty of other stories. But I preferred the early years.

I think the next decline came around Crisis. Not because of COIE, but just happening around same time. Particularly after the resolution to Church of Blood. There was still some good stuff, but definitely diminishing returns for me.

Vic had a brief period of looks-like-normal. It just felt kind of meaningless because we knew it wasn't going to last. More of his man-v-machine attitude. Which, I guess is okay to have as a continuing issue, but sometimes it felt like he wasn't given anything to do beyond that. He needed more storylines. Even his love interests were deeply tied to that aspect via their own careers. Well, Sarah #1 wasn't actually a love interest, but you know what I mean. We met Sarah #2, but while I liked her okay, and enjoyed some of the relationship dynamic, she did feel a bit too pat, like I said, for there being a second love interest that was so tailor-made to be okay with his prosthetics, instead of being a person that just happened to be okay with them, if you know what I mean.

Kole was created to die, and not around long enough to interest me. I wasn't really very happy with Lilith's send out, either. Danny was a poor addition.

Raven wresting with her darkness and Trigon ultimately taking over was okay. The battle-story seemed well-wrought, for all that it wasn't my taste. Good enough to enjoy reading it once, but then I skip over it in subsequent readings, because it's too dark for me. Trigon, once he came back, was a villain that needed to die and stay dead to me. He's too powerful to keep recurring. So I did like the resolution with the Azarath souls fairly well. Alas, after that, Raven disappears and only Arella really seems to care. I miss her in the stories, but if the others actually mentioned her or looked for her or expressed concern for her more often, I'd have been much more okay with it. Then she ends up with the Church of Blood. I can't say it's an objectively bad storyline, but I just don't enjoy watching my heroes being brainwashed baddies. Though, again, I thought the resolution worked pretty well - her getting in touch with her own soul. Then there was influencing-Dick's-emotions thing, which I think never should have happened. Some ship-tease with Jericho, which I thought was cute. I totally could have shipped them if I hadn't already known he was going to die. But she did seem to be somewhat lacking in storyline after the horrid one with Dick. I guess that's why they decided to go "Dark Raven." But since I have no interest in sticking around to see heroes become villains (even temporarily), I didn't care about reading that storyline.

After Gar got over his revenge motivation in the most annoying way, we went back to him and Steve, as was sort of an issue early. Mento's going crazy again. We already did that, albeit much more briefly, and due to brainwashing. I actually enjoyed the hostility between him and Gar at first (especially since they didn't smooth or particularly friendly relationship back in Doom Patrol, despite some mutual caring). The idea of Gar needing/wanting the love of a parent, but not admitting made an interesting story, as used earlier. Seeing it expanded upon with a parental figure who couldn't/wouldn't give him the relationship he wanted had merit, even if it was a bit of a turn around from earlier resolution. But then he became evil Mento, which was much less interesting. I was completely uninterested in Hybrid. And the storyline dragged on way too long. And ended just the way it had the first time - with Raven healing Dayton. Very much a letdown. Felt like a re-run.

Donna, I thought was handled well until COIE. She got to grow up and get married. And while Terry will never make my list of favorite characters, he was written rather likably most of the time. He really did get character-assassinated when they decided to reboot Donna in the '90s. Yes, he was 10 years older than her. But she was an adult who acted as an adult (her own place, her own job, etc.) He was usually supportive. He was somewhat bereft of ambition and he and his ex did seem to have a very hostile relationship with one another. But he wasn't slime back then. Unfortunately, the I-have-to-help-Terry-with-his job plot line did neither of them any favor. It was the first issue I read with Terry (before I actually started series from beginning - can't recall why I read it). He seemed like a man who couldn't handle his job without his wife holding his hand, and Donna like someone who prioritized coddling him over saving the life of teammates. They both come off much better pretty much every else in the 1980s. Donna also got a poor new origin, outfit, and code name. I agree with the idea of her outgrowing Wonder Girl, but Troia is weak.

When Vic was talking about going west with Sarah #2, I thought a sustained relationship (or one he screwed up because of his own issues) could be interesting. Alas, it collapsed as the storyline took a different, less interesting to me path. Just make him more machine for a while. And more bad things to come.

Kory and Dick - for this period, it's them as a couple that's an issue to me. I'm a DickBabs shipper, and I can't pretend that doesn't color my views. I shipped them before I ever heard of Kory. But I did enjoy a good bit of the Dick/Kory relationship once it existed (her continually making overtures to him despite refusal before they got together wasn't my thing). There was some really good moments between them. But, in the build-up to when she had her marriage, I thought there were ample examples of why they shouldn't work. Incompatibilities that had been referenced since day 1. She was right that he was trying to change her and their moral views on killing aren't especially compatible, with hers being a problem for him. I kinda agree with her more often that him on the matter, but that's not the point. I thought they were well set up for "sometimes love isn't enough." Then the marriage, and then she comes home. Which was just stupid to me. It's Vic's brief normal appearance - it had no meaning. It felt contrived since everything went back to the status quo. Even moreso, Dick contradicted his own moral beliefs (living with her even though she's married). That's bad to me. A love that leads a character to do things they think are wrong is a not a positive thing to me. If he'd been fine with it from the start, it wouldn't matter, but he wasn't, so it did. Plus, I felt like all the issues they had were just swept under the rug/ignored. I could never enjoy seeing them together again after that. I'm sure I'd have felt differently if I shipped them to begin with.

And Jericho. I don't mind that he died. I do mind that he had a crappy death. That led to him getting resurrected and made a villain and more crappy things happening to him. Because he was a great person. He deserved a heroic death. And for it not to be about Slade instead of him. And again, I don't like this "Slade is gray" crap. As with the vast majority of supposedly gray characters, to me he's just a villain with excuses. I also dislike the souls of Azarath being tainted. It turned a victory into a defeat.

I stayed for a few more issues after the character line-up changed the first time I read the series, but bowed out pretty quickly after the change, as there wasn't really anything left for me to enjoy. Last time I read the series, I discontinued a couple issues after the Wildebeest Society showed up. While there are some good issues after that, didn't seem like there were enough of them to bother continuing to read.

[king81992]

I recently did a NTT re-read. Sometimes much more a re-skim. Hope you don't mind talk of old stories.

I think I stand by my initial opinion (from first reading) that the early years were best. There was some great stuff there. Building friendships, good arcs, developing characters, etc. I might come back later and post on specific issue and scenes I loved.

I think some time in 1984 (probably shortly after Judas Contract?), it faltered a little. I don't mind Terra being pretty much pure evil with no reason given (it's common enough for villains), but was disappointed with Slade not going down too, and being treated as not that bad by Gar in end (and giving him advice, etc. - left a very bad taste in my mouth). I'll grant you the man loved his sons - he's still a paid assassin, a villain. I didn't like him not be treated like it. I liked Jericho as a character, but still didn't feel the stories were as strong as they had been.

Don't get me wrong - there was still some great stuff. I enjoyed "Who is Donna Troy?" and the wedding. And plenty of other stories. But I preferred the early years.

I think the next decline came around Crisis. Not because of COIE, but just happening around same time. Particularly after the resolution to Church of Blood. There was still some good stuff, but definitely diminishing returns for me.

Vic had a brief period of looks-like-normal. It just felt kind of meaningless because we knew it wasn't going to last. More of his man-v-machine attitude Which, I guess is okay to have as a continuing issue, but sometimes it felt like he wasn't given anything to do beyond that. He needed more storylines. Even his love interests were deeply tied to that aspect via their own careers. Well, Sarah #1 wasn't actually a love interest, but you know what I mean. We met Sarah #2, but while I liked her okay, and enjoyed some of the relationship dynamic, she did feel a bit too pat, like I said, for their being a second love interest that was so tailor-made to be okay with his prosthetics, instead of being a person that just happened to be okay with them, if you know what I mean.

Kole was created to die, and not around long enough to interest me. I wasn't really very happy with Lilith's send out, either. Danny was a poor addition.

Raven wresting with her darkness and Trigon ultimately taking over was okay. The battle-story seemed well-wrought, for all that it wasn't my taste. Good enough to enjoy reading it once, but then I skip over it in subsequent readings, because it's too dark for me. Trigon, once he came back, was a villain that needed to die and stay dead to me. He's too powerful to keep recurring. So I did like the resolution with the Azarath souls fairly well. Alas, after that, Raven disappears and only Arella really seems to care. I miss her in the stories, but if the others actually mentioned her or looked for her or expressed concern for her more often, I'd have been much more okay with it. Then she ends up with the Church of Blood. I can't say it's an objectively bad storyline, but I just don't enjoy watching my heroes being brainwashed baddies. Though, again, I thought the resolution worked pretty well - her getting in touch with her own soul. Then there was influencing-Dick's-emotions thing, which I think never should have happened. Some ship-tease with Jericho, which I thought was cute. I totally could have shipped them if I hadn't already known he was going to die. But she did seem to be somewhat lacking in storyline after the horrid one with Dick. I guess that's why they decided to go "Dark Raven." But since I have no interest in sticking around to see heroes become villains (even temporarily), I didn't care about reading that storyline.

After Gar got over his revenge motivation in the most annoying way, we went back to him and Steve, as was sort of an issue early. Mento's going crazy again. We already did that, albeit much more briefly, and due to brainwashing. I actually enjoyed the hostility between him and Gar at first (especially since they didn't smooth or particularly friendly relationship back in Doom Patrol, despite some mutual caring). The idea of Gar needing/wanting the love of a parent, but not admitting made an interesting story, as used earlier. Seeing it expanded upon with a parental figure who couldn't/wouldn't give him the relationship he wanted had merit, even if it was a bit of a turn around from earlier resolution. But then he became evil Mento, which was much less interesting. I was completely uninterested in Hybrid. And the storyline dragged on way too long. And ended just the way it had the first time - with Raven healing Dayton. Very much a letdown. Felt like a re-run.

Donna, I thought was handled well until COIE. She got to grow up and get married. And while Terry will never make my list of favorite characters, he was written rather likably most of the time. He really did get character-assassinated when they decided to reboot Donna in the '90s. Yes, he was 10 years older than her. But she was an adult who acted as an adult (her own place, her own job, etc.) He was usually supportive. He was somewhat bereft of ambition and he and his ex did seem to have a very hostile relationship with one another. But he wasn't slime back then. Unfortunately, the I-have-to-help-Terry-with-his job plot line did neither of them any favor. It was the first issue I read with Terry (before I actually started series from beginning - can't recall why I read it). He seemed like a man who couldn't handle his job without his wife holding his hand, and Donna like someone who prioritized coddling him over saving the life of teammates. They both come off much better pretty much every else in the 1980s. Donna also got a poor new origin, outfit, and code name. I agree with the idea of her outgrowing Wonder Girl, but Troia is weak.

When Vic was talking about going west with Sarah #2, I thought a sustained relationship (or one he screwed up because of his own issues) could be interesting. Alas, it collapsed as the storyline took a different, less interesting to me path. Just make him more machine for a while. And more bad things to come.

Kory and Dick - for this period, it's them as a couple that's an issue to me. I'm a DickBabs shipper, and I can't pretend that doesn't color my views. I shipped them before I ever heard of Kory. But I did enjoy a good bit of the Dick/Kory relationship once it existed (her continually making overtures to him despite refusal before they got together wasn't my thing). There was some really good moments between them. But, in the build-up to when she had her marriage, I thought there were ample examples of why they shouldn't work. Incompatibilities that had been referenced since day 1. She was right that he was trying to change her and their moral views on killing aren't especially compatible, with hers being a problem for him. I kinda agree with her more often that him on the matter, but that's not the point. I thought they were well set up for "sometimes love isn't enough." Then the marriage, and then she comes home. Which was just stupid to me. It's Vic's brief normal appearance - it had no meaning. It felt contrived since everything went back to the status quo. Even moreso, Dick contradicted his own moral beliefs (living with her even though she's married). That's bad to me. A love that leads a character to do things they think are wrong is a not a positive thing to me. If he'd been fine with it from the start, it wouldn't matter, but he wasn't, so it did. Plus, I felt like all the issues they had were just swept under the rug/ignored. I could never enjoy seeing them together again after that. I'm sure I'd have felt differently if I shipped them to begin with.

And Jericho. I don't mind that he died. I do mind that he had a crappy death. That led to him getting resurrected and made a villain and more crappy things happening to him. Because he was a great person. He deserved a heroic death. And for it not to be about Slade instead of him. And again, I don't like this "Slade is gray" crap. As with the vast majority of supposedly gray characters, to me he's just a villain with excuses. I also dislike the souls of Azarath being tainted. It turned a victory into a defeat.

I stayed for a few more issues after the character line-up changed the first time I read the series, but bowed out pretty quickly after the change, as there wasn't really anything left for me to enjoy. Last time I read the series, I discontinued a couple issues after the Wildebeest Society showed up. While there are some good issues after that, didn't seem like there were enough of them to bother continuing to read.

Wolfman pretending that Slade did nothing wrong and was 'morally grey' undermined the entire series and set a bad precedent going forward.

[Tzigone]

Wolfman pretending that Slade did nothing wrong and was 'morally grey' undermined the entire series and set a bad precedent going forward.

It seemed kinda strange, too, in that we'd just seen via the tale about Jericho in childhood that, though Slade loved him, he valued his reputation/professional ethics more. And that's before we get into his reasons for becoming an assassin. Not to mention the skeevyness of sleeping with a 15 year old. I mean, it's nowhere near the most morally objectionable thing he's done, but it's just so tailor-made to make him seem distasteful to me.

Edit: Just had a thought - surely the panels indicating a sexual relationship weren't set up to make us think lowly of Tara without making think lowly of Slade, right? I can't even see how that would be the case, but just thought of it. I guess an alternative would be tricking us to falsely think her more vulnerable/manipulated, but it didn't seem to be intended play that way, either.

[Sam]

Wolfman pretending that Slade did nothing wrong and was 'morally grey' undermined the entire series and set a bad precedent going forward.

I think that's true to an extent. The way Deathstroke came back later and was a friend of the Titans was weird, but I will say the issue with him and Gar in the diner was one of my favorite Teen Titans issues ever. I thought that was amazingly well-done, but, of course, I never thought of that as letting Slade off the hook, so much as Gar coming to terms with the events of The Judas Contract and letting go of his anger before he pushes his friends away. I saw it as making peace, not becoming Slade's buddy. Of course, down the line when Slade came back, they played it as if he was now Gar's buddy, but it doesn't change my feelings for the diner issue.

[Tzigone]

I think that's true to an extent. The way Deathstroke came back later and was a friend of the Titans was weird, but I will say the issue with him and Gar in the diner was one of my favorite Teen Titans issues ever. I thought that was amazingly well-done, but, of course, I never thought of that as letting Slade off the hook, so much as Gar coming to terms with the events of The Judas Contract and letting go of his anger before he pushes his friends away. I saw it as making peace, not becoming Slade's buddy. Of course, down the line when Slade came back, they played it as if he was now Gar's buddy, but it doesn't change my feelings for the diner issue.

I hated that issue so much. Because, yes, I absolutely saw it as letting Slade off the hook. And as portraying him as someone to be listened to and that gave good advice. But the title alone would prime to dislike it "Shades of Gray!' where I see no gray. And my aforementioned general dislike for the character-type.

[king81992]

I think that's true to an extent. The way Deathstroke came back later and was a friend of the Titans was weird, but I will say the issue with him and Gar in the diner was one of my favorite Teen Titans issues ever. I thought that was amazingly well-done, but, of course, I never thought of that as letting Slade off the hook, so much as Gar coming to terms with the events of The Judas Contract and letting go of his anger before he pushes his friends away. I saw it as making peace, not becoming Slade's buddy. Of course, down the line when Slade came back, they played it as if he was now Gar's buddy, but it doesn't change my feelings for the diner issue.

I had the opposite reaction. It felt so fake and forced. I lost a lot of respect for Gar after that.