Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2019

[ImperiusWrecked]

Here's the comic scans if anyone wishes to read them:

submariner_comics_1941_31_1.jpg

submariner_comics_1941_31_2.jpg

Sort of but not exactly ...

Cronin tackles this question here:

https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-legends-revealed-191/3/

But both basically support what I said. Everett never intended for Namor to be from Atlantis. It was Stan Lee who named Namor's city as Atlantis in Fantastic Four Annual #1, back in 1964.


I don't disagree with much of that, but my point is it was Stan Lee, not Everett, that emphasized / created that -- right down to his now famous and beloved catchphrase "Imperius Rex!" It was Roy Thomas that tied Atlantis to Howard's fictional, fantastical pre-history of the Europe and the Hyborian and pre-Hyborian ages. And writers since have muddied the waters even more, by contradicting themselves on the actual origins of the Atlanteans, i.e. are they literally descended from the REH Atlaneans, or did they just move in and appropriate their ruined sunken city?

But it was the artists, like Kirby, Colan and Byrne, as well as Everett, who gave Namor's features an Asian look. And it was Everett who intended Namor to be non-white / Other, even if his skin color was white. However, being contradictory and complex, there's no doubt that Everett also drew on classical Greek and Roman elements too -- after all his name IS Roman spelled backwards. ;p


Everett didn't really continue developing the character after the Atlas era -- even though he drew him -- that was all Stan Lee and Roy Thomas. In fact, according to Thomas, Everett complained at the formality and speech pattern that Stan Lee saddled Namor with, but of course, Everett went along with it. I'd say Everett is one of the first fans to complain of a character being OOC, but of course, he was more than a fan. Only his last run in the 1970s, where he wrote and drew Namor and created Namorita could be considered Everett developing the character. Notably, Everett did do that great story with Greco / Roman gods in Subby #57, so, he'd definitely bought into that aspect by then.


I just read this story. It wasn't by Everett, and I'm going to have to agree with Cronin, it wasn't canon. That's the thing people forget about the Golden Age stuff, as fun as it is. The stories are NOT canon. In the MU, they are comics books whose stories may or may not be based off actual events -- but are highly fictionalized. [Insert my usual rant about the tidal wave in Marvels.] I mean seriously? Is Namor going to claim that his ancestors are the ancient air breathing Atlanteans who created GRAVITY by sinking a giant magnet into the core of the world??? That's some Ensign Chekov level nonsense bragging there.

This is really well put and extensive reply Rev! I was going to say earlier how I thought the Roman influences in early Namor was definitely some kind of fusion of Everett's original race of underwater breathers and the myth of Atlantis via Namor's wings and name, and how this isn't uncommon for one to combine elements in scifi and fantasy settings which is how we get things like cyberpunk or steampunk genres etc. No fiction is created in a bubble, and all inspiration comes from somewhere.

Also that the early Atlanteans were more about seeking revenge for the wrongs that were done to them by the white surface men, Namor (I will have to double check when I have time) didn't want to rule the surface world in his early comics, he wanted to Avenge his people and was more interested in wrecking havoc on the surface world. The Roman influences are there, and as Rev pointed out didn't really come into Namor's mythos until the Silver Age, which doesn't discount them but also doesn't erase Everett's intention for the early characters to be a indigenous poc coded people, like the Inuit or the Native Americans or that Namor is biracial. It's like the "wings on his feet" comic, that explained how Namor got his wings long before the term mutants or xmen came up in Marvel, then when Namor did get the "first mutant" added to him, it doesn't take away the fact that he preceded the current canon for what's normal in the MU.

A quick note here Rev, although most of the GA is not canon as you said, they did totally keep some of its history like the Namor vs Jim Hammond fight or Betty Dean, which honestly I like they kept those but also the history of Atlantis even after the GA is a huge mess, and I really wish we could get someone to finally give a History of Atlantis. I was not very pleased with Zdarsky trying to make the Atlanteans seem like they were from another planet, and can do without Pak's Amazon vs Atlantis war explanation. I have not caught up on the current comics Pak is working on that have the sirens and Wave in them but I will before the Atlantis Attacks mini comes out.

Also other things Marvel's Atlantis gained from the silver age is the "wants to conquer the surface world" rather than war with it, which is very Roman "wanting to expand their empire", also the arrogance of the Romans thinking they were the best around, but also I wanted to point out that in Real History, Rome granted citizenship to people who weren't Roman and there was a diverse collection of ethnicity in Rome. So even if Atlantis was Roman, then the people there would be made of of a collection of varying skin tones and looks. Which I find very fascinating!

OH one more thing I wanted to add! I saw earlier in the thread that Submariner males vs females look was brought up and imo the varying degrees of looks between men to women is because of one of the oldest tropes in scifi and fantasy where the male of a humanoid species often looks more bestial, alien, or strange and the females look more conventionally human but with enough differences to make them alien yet not ugly or strange enough to have the hero who encounters them be put off of trying to woo the female. Hence why Fen says "I who resembled most closely the female of their race" because she didn't have the extreme fish people features the men did. However when we get to the frog people, I will just have to put that to an artist being told the men were ugly amphibians and they just ran with it. lol.

I absolutely love how this thread is becoming like this:

Attachment 90153

I wish we could get more people in on it.

Lmao! Well I'm always trying to bring in more fans, and this thread is always full of interesting thoughts to read! I hope to do a bit more next year when we get the new AA miniseries out to drum up more interest in Namor, someday Marvel will get tired of my emails for a new series and just give us one. lol.

LOL!

Well, I'm not going to disagree with that pic. I often feel that way when trying to track down information about Namor's 80 YEAR history. In fact, I found something else on Namor's old 70s pilot script, that I'm going to post when I catch up.

You are going to LOVE this, Imperius Wrecked! heheheheh

I am HIGHLY anticipating whatever this is Rev! I know there was mention of a tv series but nothing was ever verified outside of maybe one interview with Everett, and that the Man from Atlantis series was supposed to be somehow inspired or connected to Namor, but I thought it was mostly rumors.

[Electricmastro]

And it was Everett who intended Namor to be non-white / Other, even if his skin color was white.

Alright, may you present the evidence that supports the idea that Everett intended Namor to be non-white even though his skin color was white? I'm rather curious and interested.

[Thor-El]

But it was the artists, like Kirby, Colan and Byrne, as well as Everett, who gave Namor's features an Asian look.

Namor doesn't have an Asian look, my point is slanted eyes don't give a look that is exclusively Asian. If you see Shang Chi, all the characters there that are Asian, they not only have slanted eyes but their skin is colored different plus all their attire and cultural references in those comics. Namor is as Asian as Star Trek's Mr. Spock was.

And it was Everett who intended Namor to be non-white / Other, even if his skin color was white. However, being contradictory and complex, there's no doubt that Everett also drew on classical Greek and Roman elements too -- after all his name IS Roman spelled backwards. ;p

I don't think this is correct as far as physical appearance. In the Alter Ego interview we have with Bill Everett when Roy Thomas asks Bill Everett about the TV series they were planning to do with the Sub-mariner:

RT: Did they have a star in mind?
EVERETT: Yes, they wanted to use Richard Egan. I guess he'd agreed to do it. I couldn't see it, but that was beside the point.



The interview continues discussing the pilot that never was and at one point Bill Everett gives his own casting for Namor:

EVERETT: And I love Sea Hunt, and it struck me that Lloyd Bridges would be a perfect Sub-Mariner. I mean, even the features--just alter them very slightly, and he's The Sub-Mariner. He was ideal for the role and he looked great underwater and he certainly could have adapted to the role beautifully-and every time I see Sea Hunt I get a little twinge because it could have been The Sub-Mariner. It's just one of those things that didn't come to pass. Maybe good, maybe bad-I don't know.




After reading this interview I don't have any doubts Everett wanted Namor to be white in physical appearance. He goes as far as expressing his dislike for the casting of an actor with rougher features and that does look more Mediterranean like Richard Egan and naming an actor that is the epitome of a white person like Lloyd Bridges as the perfect casting and going so far as to emphasize Bridges features as a reason for this perfect casting.

[Reviresco]

Alright, may you present the evidence that supports the idea that Everett intended Namor to be non-white even though his skin color was white? I'm rather curious and interested.

The simple fact that Namor is bi-racial, and that's how Everett created him. As bi-racial person, I can tell you first hand, you are considered neither of the races of your parents. You are always seen as half of one at best. Namor's features, and even more importantly, his ears, guaranteed that he'd never be considered a white person, he was always going to be Other. Folks have pointed to Everett's original choice of red hair for Namor as indicating he was white. But at that time, red hair wasn't considered a good thing -- consider the phrase "beaten like a red haired step child." It was another signifier of someone that was considered less than acceptable.

Also, in that era, having white skin didn't make you 'white' in America. Not only did we have the "one drop" rule concerning brown people, but the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, etc. were all considered either non-white or less than acceptable.

Namor was one of those SF aliens, who have white skin so the white readership can identify with them enough to get the "message" the writer might be delivering concerning our own prejudices. People who aren't "white," OTOH, recognize the coding, and also relate to the character.


Christopher Priest recognized this in his interview on Newsarama a while back.

... Sub-Mariner--who himself is not white but appears white and therefore can navigate the Marvel zeitgeist more easily ...

https://www.newsarama.com/25496-prie...k-panther.html

[Electricmastro]

The simple fact that Namor is bi-racial, and that's how Everett created him. As bi-racial person, I can tell you first hand, you are considered neither of the races of your parents. You are always seen as half of one at best. Namor's features, and even more importantly, his ears, guaranteed that he'd never be considered a white person, he was always going to be Other. Folks have pointed to Everett's original choice of red hair for Namor as indicating he was white. But at that time, red hair wasn't considered a good thing -- consider the phrase "beaten like a red haired step child." It was another signifier of someone that was considered less than acceptable.

Also, in that era, having white skin didn't make you 'white' in America. Not only did we have the "one drop" rule concerning brown people, but the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, etc. were all considered either non-white or less than acceptable.

Namor was one of those SF aliens, who have white skin so the white readership can identify with them enough to get the "message" the writer might be delivering concerning our own prejudices. People who aren't "white," OTOH, recognize the coding, and also relate to the character.

Not sure if those feelings, valid as they are, serve as good enough evidence Reviresco. Sorry.

Anyway, felt like giving Namor some credit for going up against fascist genocidal Nazi maniacs in a pre-Pearl Harbor attack society before Captain America did:

[Reviresco]

Namor doesn't have an Asian look, my point is slanted eyes don't give a look that is exclusively Asian. If you see Shang Chi, all the characters there that are Asian, they not only have slanted eyes but their skin is colored different plus all their attire and cultural references in those comics. Namor is as Asian as Star Trek's Mr. Spock was.

Obviously, some people disagree on how Namor looks. John Bryne said he drew Namor as "Chinese looking," because that's how Kirby drew him, so clearly, he, and he thought Kirby, saw Namor differently.

I like Shang Chi's comics, but he's a stereotype, and for many years, one that kind of made you wince. You don't have to know kung fu, wear Buddhist prayer beads, speak an Asian language, or even have an epicanthal fold to be considered Asian. Some of the whitest skinned people I know are Asian.

And the bolded is part is sort of what I'm saying. Mr. Spock, like Namor, is a non-white character. Mr. Spock was bi-racial and from a foreign race, just like Namor. They both have white skin, but they are clearly both Other. Mr. Spock could have easily have played by an Asian. Instead, he was played by a Jewish actor, a non-white actor.

I'm not saying Namor IS Asian, i.e. Princess Fen and the Atlanteans are Asian. I mean, I guess you could come up with some sort of pre-historic plotline where the Atlanteans were actually the descendants of people who came the area that is now the continent of Asia, who ended up colonizing Atlantis. But that Namor is non-white, and looks enough Asian, that an Asian could play him. That doesn't mean the movie or character would have to lose the Greco Roman stuff you like, anymore than MCU Asgard adopted an African motif, because Heimdall and Valkyrie were played by black people.

[Thor-El]

And then there is Namora,

[Reviresco]

Not sure if those feelings, valid as they are, serve as good enough evidence Reviresco. Sorry.

Most of my post dealt with facts, so I'm not sure how that doesn't qualify as evidence? Perhaps if you'd care to point out exactly what you think is a feeling I could explain it further.

[Electricmastro]

I'm not saying Namor IS Asian, i.e. Princess Fen and the Atlanteans are Asian.

Ah, I suppose that's where some people got confused. Thanks for clarifying.

[Thor-El]

Obviously, some people disagree on how Namor looks. John Bryne said he drew Namor as "Chinese looking," because that's how Kirby drew him, so clearly, he, and he thought Kirby, saw Namor differently.

I like Shang Chi's comics, but he's a stereotype, and for many years, one that kind of made you wince. You don't have to know kung fu, wear Buddhist prayer beads, speak an Asian language, or even have an epicanthal fold to be considered Asian. Some of the whitest skinned people I know are Asian.

And the bolded is part is sort of what I'm saying. Mr. Spock, like Namor, is a non-white character. Mr. Spock was bi-racial and from a foreign race, just like Namor. They both have white skin, but they are clearly both Other. Mr. Spock could have easily have played by an Asian. Instead, he was played by a Jewish actor, a non-white actor.

I'm not saying Namor IS Asian, i.e. Princess Fen and the Atlanteans are Asian. I mean, I guess you could come up with some sort of pre-historic plotline where the Atlanteans were actually the descendants of people who came the area that is now the continent of Asia, who ended up colonizing Atlantis. But that Namor is non-white, and looks enough Asian, that an Asian could play him. That doesn't mean the movie or character would have to lose the Greco Roman stuff you like, anymore than MCU Asgard adopted an African motif, because Heimdall and Valkyrie were played by black people.

And I always thought Shang Chi was simply super cool! The single digit bodyfat percent, the nice hair and all the cool fight choreography and cool poses taken straight of a Bruce Lee movie. And Fu Manchu was like an ultra evil version of a human Odin, so great! Shang Chi was the type of oriental character that made a non oriental kid like me wish he was oriental. Blame it on the awesome art of Paul Gulacy I guess.

And you mention Valkyrie and Heimdall which even though I scratch my head as they break the illusion of Nordic gods being accurately Nordic, I've come to accept as part of a business were equal opportunity is necessary. But in truth is like if they had placed a couple of blonde girls in the Black Panthers Dora Milaje, the effect would have been the same.

I just have very strong visual concepts of my Marvel characters that I grew up with and don't like when they get drastically changed. So its not that I will boycott an oriental Namor but it will be totally alien to what I expect and wish to see in a movie, at least most of the oriental rumored castings are.

Its very hard that you will find an Asian actor with the necessary height and build to play Namor that's why I think Samoan is the way to go if you absolutely need him to be non-white, which in my opinion is also not necessary but at least I've seen more than one Samoan actor that could be convincing as Namor.

[Thor-El]

From the 11th Namor cartoon, Planet of Doom

[ImperiusWrecked]

Namor doesn't have an Asian look, my point is slanted eyes don't give a look that is exclusively Asian. If you see Shang Chi, all the characters there that are Asian, they not only have slanted eyes but their skin is colored different plus all their attire and cultural references in those comics. Namor is as Asian as Star Trek's Mr. Spock was.

I don't think this is correct as far as physical appearance. In the Alter Ego interview we have with Bill Everett when Roy Thomas asks Bill Everett about the TV series they were planning to do with the Sub-mariner:

RT: Did they have a star in mind?
EVERETT: Yes, they wanted to use Richard Egan. I guess he'd agreed to do it. I couldn't see it, but that was beside the point.

The interview continues discussing the pilot that never was and at one point Bill Everett gives his own casting for Namor:

EVERETT: And I love Sea Hunt, and it struck me that Lloyd Bridges would be a perfect Sub-Mariner. I mean, even the features--just alter them very slightly, and he's The Sub-Mariner. He was ideal for the role and he looked great underwater and he certainly could have adapted to the role beautifully-and every time I see Sea Hunt I get a little twinge because it could have been The Sub-Mariner. It's just one of those things that didn't come to pass. Maybe good, maybe bad-I don't know.

After reading this interview I don't have any doubts Everett wanted Namor to be white in physical appearance. He goes as far as expressing his dislike for the casting of an actor with rougher features and that does look more Mediterranean like Richard Egan and naming an actor that is the epitome of a white person like Lloyd Bridges as the perfect casting and going so far as to emphasize Bridges features as a reason for this perfect casting.

A large amount of people will associate epicanthic folds of the eyes with people who are non white or Asian before a a white person. Just because this video shows that there is some people who are white who have this fold does not mean that it is not commonly associated with POC first. Kirby drew Namor with slanted eyes. Namor's eyes are referred to as slanted in Sub-Mariner Comics (1941) #5, he is not japanese, yet he can pass as japanese. Namor didn't do anything more than put on a uniform.



Kirby and Lee did not erase or change any part of Namor's creation, Lee stated that he loved the Sub-Mariner as he was and they chose not to reboot him like they did with the Human Torch. They simply added more with Atlantis and Roman references.

Shang Chi's comics had him colored yellow for years, a racist stereotype for Asian characters, before it was stopped. Namor's own skin tone ranges from comic to comic and cartoon to cartoon, the early Fantastic Four cartoon had him darker than the rest of the Fantastic Four.



White is the default for hollywood, white is the default for comics, books, tv shows. It's literally the reason why an Asian character in comics who was in the recent Hellboy reboot was cast as a white man before fan outcry and a proper recasting to an Asian actor. People will always put a white actor before they consider a POC. Just how many people would Everett have seen in his day as a leading male role who was non white? One has to consider the fact that there are many things that come into one's view of the world.

Namor is most importantly Biracial and that is the backbone of his character. Never being accepted by either of his parents races. As for evidence, it is in the comics, the earliest comics has Bill Everett's own hand writing that Namor is against the white race, he didn't have to write it that way, he could have written earth men, or surface men. There are other things that point out Namor is not white regardless of his skin tone. There are plenty of people, whom I know, who can "pass" as white but are not white even though they have light skin. Namor is only Half White. He gets his skin tone from his father but he is not white he is biracial and the other half of him is just as important as the white half, and that other half has been seen to be "Other".



Also as I said before Everett had Namor's people coded (coded means never outright stated but implied through writing) as a POC like the mention of Namor returning to his "tribe" - Marvel Mystery Comics #3.

The simple fact that Namor is bi-racial, and that's how Everett created him. As bi-racial person, I can tell you first hand, you are considered neither of the races of your parents. You are always seen as half of one at best. Namor's features, and even more importantly, his ears, guaranteed that he'd never be considered a white person, he was always going to be Other. Folks have pointed to Everett's original choice of red hair for Namor as indicating he was white. But at that time, red hair wasn't considered a good thing -- consider the phrase "beaten like a red haired step child." It was another signifier of someone that was considered less than acceptable.

Also, in that era, having white skin didn't make you 'white' in America. Not only did we have the "one drop" rule concerning brown people, but the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, etc. were all considered either non-white or less than acceptable.

Namor was one of those SF aliens, who have white skin so the white readership can identify with them enough to get the "message" the writer might be delivering concerning our own prejudices. People who aren't "white," OTOH, recognize the coding, and also relate to the character.

Christopher Priest recognized this in his interview on Newsarama a while back.

https://www.newsarama.com/25496-prie...k-panther.html

Obviously, some people disagree on how Namor looks. John Bryne said he drew Namor as "Chinese looking," because that's how Kirby drew him, so clearly, he, and he thought Kirby, saw Namor differently.

I like Shang Chi's comics, but he's a stereotype, and for many years, one that kind of made you wince. You don't have to know kung fu, wear Buddhist prayer beads, speak an Asian language, or even have an epicanthal fold to be considered Asian. Some of the whitest skinned people I know are Asian.

And the bolded is part is sort of what I'm saying. Mr. Spock, like Namor, is a non-white character. Mr. Spock was bi-racial and from a foreign race, just like Namor. They both have white skin, but they are clearly both Other. Mr. Spock could have easily have played by an Asian. Instead, he was played by a Jewish actor, a non-white actor.

I'm not saying Namor IS Asian, i.e. Princess Fen and the Atlanteans are Asian. I mean, I guess you could come up with some sort of pre-historic plotline where the Atlanteans were actually the descendants of people who came the area that is now the continent of Asia, who ended up colonizing Atlantis. But that Namor is non-white, and looks enough Asian, that an Asian could play him. That doesn't mean the movie or character would have to lose the Greco Roman stuff you like, anymore than MCU Asgard adopted an African motif, because Heimdall and Valkyrie were played by black people.

This is very well put Rev and I agree with everything here.

And then there is Namora, also created by Everett:

Namora was created by Ken Bald and Syd Shores.

[ImperiusWrecked]

So Namor appeared in Aero (2019) #6! Just the final page but its a set up for the Atlantis Attacks mini



I've caught up on my Aero reading that story with Wave, Aero, and the Sirenas, I will wait to see what AA will bring since I don't trust the queen of the Sirenas to be truthful about spoilers:

atlantis being the ones who are attacking them/trying to kill them. IMO Namor is not the one who usually attacks other undersea races unless there was a very good reason for it and the queen seems very shady to me.

end of spoilers A few panels here

[Thor-El]

A large amount of people will associate epicanthic folds of the eyes with people who are non white or Asian before a a white person. Just because this video shows that there is some people who are white who have this fold does not mean that it is not commonly associated with POC first. Kirby drew Namor with slanted eyes. Namor's eyes are referred to as slanted in Sub-Mariner Comics (1941) #5, he is not japanese, yet he can pass as japanese. Namor didn't do anything more than put on a uniform.



Kirby and Lee did not erase or change any part of Namor's creation, Lee stated that he loved the Sub-Mariner as he was and they chose not to reboot him like they did with the Human Torch. They simply added more with Atlantis and Roman references.

Shang Chi's comics had him colored yellow for years, a racist stereotype for Asian characters, before it was stopped. Namor's own skin tone ranges from comic to comic and cartoon to cartoon, the early Fantastic Four cartoon had him darker than the rest of the Fantastic Four.



White is the default for hollywood, white is the default for comics, books, tv shows. It's literally the reason why an Asian character in comics who was in the recent Hellboy reboot was cast as a white man before fan outcry and a proper recasting to an Asian actor. People will always put a white actor before they consider a POC. Just how many people would Everett have seen in his day as a leading male role who was non white? One has to consider the fact that there are many things that come into one's view of the world.

Namor is most importantly Biracial and that is the backbone of his character. Never being accepted by either of his parents races. As for evidence, it is in the comics, the earliest comics has Bill Everett's own hand writing that Namor is against the white race, he didn't have to write it that way, he could have written earth men, or surface men. There are other things that point out Namor is not white regardless of his skin tone. There are plenty of people, whom I know, who can "pass" as white but are not white even though they have light skin. Namor is only Half White. He gets his skin tone from his father but he is not white he is biracial and the other half of him is just as important as the white half, and that other half has been seen to be "Other".



Also as I said before Everett had Namor's people coded (coded means never outright stated but implied through writing) as a POC like the mention of Namor returning to his "tribe" - Marvel Mystery Comics #3.



This is very well put Rev and I agree with everything here.




Namora was created by Ken Bald and Syd Shores.

You are right Namora wasn't created by Everett, I got confused as they discussed Namora in the interview I'm citing from. The golden age page you link has the girl confused more by the uniform than anything else, Namor takes the helmet off to show that he is not Japanese, and of course he comments on his eyes because they are slanted a common Asian trait-but again not a definite Asian trait. But to be clear I don't disagree that Namor being bi-racial is one of the most importants aspects of the character even though he could look as white as Lloyd Bridges and I don't doubt Everett could have referred to the people of the poles for his "Atlanteans" or POC coded but in no way I see any connection with the Asian culture for the character or the underwater culture, not during the golden age and even less for the silver age which is strongly Roman/Greek..

Seeing Asian people cast for a movie based in a Greco/Roman environment like Atlantis is as crazy to me as the casting of black actors as Norse gods or the casting of white actors for Wakanda's army. Yes you can get over complicated and explain that they emigrated to Atlantis just to shoehorn them in the movie like everything else. And there were many leading men that were not white during the 60s and 70s Charles Bronson and Yul Brynner come immediately to mind, even Bruce Lee.

I guess we are going to have to simply agree to disagree.

[Thor-El]

So Namor appeared in Aero (2019) #6! Just the final page but its a set up for the Atlantis Attacks mini



I've caught up on my Aero reading that story with Wave, Aero, and the Sirenas, I will wait to see what AA will bring since I don't trust the queen of the Sirenas to be truthful about spoilers:

atlantis being the ones who are attacking them/trying to kill them. IMO Namor is not the one who usually attacks other undersea races unless there was a very good reason for it and the queen seems very shady to me.

end of spoilers A few panels here

Thanks for posting this very cool splash page, makes me excited for Atlantis Attacks!!