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  1. #2491
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I think I've heard that Everett had Namor be "against the white man" due to the racism that perceived black people and other non-white people to be "inferior" in terms of being a force to be reckoned with, assuming that the white man was a bigger threat than the black man, but I'm not sure how true that is, nor am I sure in regards to Everett's views of race in and near the World War II era. Another theory is that it's because Namor and the others only saw the white man attack Atlantis is what led to them specifying "the white man," though again, I'm not sure.
    I'd be interested in reading about that.

  2. #2492
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    I'd be interested in reading about that.
    Not that I want to assume what exactly artists' views were just by their art, but seeing as how even creators like Stan Lee and Jack Kirby showcased characters like Whitewash Jones, it definitely gives an idea as to how mindful they would have been over this sort of stuff.

    Whatever the case, I suppose it's worth noting that some of the last comics Everett worked on was Sub-Mariner #53 and #55 ( 1972), which contrasts Namor with Sunfire, a Japanese mutant who held a grudge against the Americans for nuclear bombing Japan. Along with the other, I think goes to show how far Namor came as a character since the old days.



    Last edited by Electricmastro; 12-08-2019 at 05:38 PM.

  3. #2493
    All-New Member Thane's Avatar
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    Did anyone get upset how Marvel ended ultimate Namor?Introduced as boss power level super hero. Was suspected by Reed Richards, one of the smartest geniuses on earth, to bring ultimatum.
    RCO012_1469457501.jpg
    RCO016_1469457501.jpg
    Last edited by Thane; 12-08-2019 at 06:00 PM.

  4. #2494
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    I love these two issues, I asked the writer on twitter once if he would ever consider writing more Namor and he gave a vague reply. We really need more world building about Atlantis like this.



    Namor imo should be played by a Biracial actor, just like how Aquaman was. The reason I pointed out that Superman parallels is to say that unlike Superman, Namor has been shown with these features even years after and he looked east asian and people have noticed. Benedict Wong, who plays Wong in Doctor Strange, spoke about it in an article briefly.



    Also as I said, the Atlanteans in my opinion are a mix of fantasy, myths, Roman influence, and POC coded characters, there's more than a few references throughout the years that hint at this so it's not a one off thing that people have latched onto. Aquaman was never anything but a white guy yet Momoa played him and everyone loved it, and it made a lot of money, and no one was trying prove that it wasn't comic accurate. If Marvel does Namor well, then he could be bigger than Aquaman.
    There are plenty Asian heroes in Marvel lore like some have pointed out. I think Wong just doesn't knows enough Marvel Comics. I honestly never thought of Namor as Asian until I started hearing this debate on the internet. I remember reading Shang Chi and then seeing Sunfire in the X-Men when I was a kid and those two are pretty recognizable. Shang Chi is even getting a film before Namor.

  5. #2495
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Not that I want to assume what exactly artists' views were just by their art, but seeing as how even creators like Stan Lee and Jack Kirby showcased characters like Whitewash Jones, it definitely gives an idea as to how mindful they would have been over this sort of stuff.

    Whatever the case, I suppose it's worth noting that some of the last comics Everett worked on was Sub-Mariner #53 and #55 ( 1972), which contrasts Namor with Sunfire, a Japanese mutant who held a grudge against the Americans for nuclear bombing Japan. Along with the other, I think goes to show how far Namor came as a character since the old days.



    Awesome post, makes one sad Everett died so soon after taking over the series. How many awesome Sub-mariner stories we are missing because of this.

  6. #2496
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    Awesome post, makes one sad Everett died so soon after taking over the series. How many awesome Sub-mariner stories we are missing because of this.
    Yeah, Everett left quite the mark on Marvel's history. On of the biggest highlights is probably Daredevil #7, because it features two characters he helped create battling it out.


  7. #2497
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I don't have any issue with it either. The MCU is set on an Earth different from that of Earth 616 first of all, so inevitably there will be differences. At the same time though, if someone were to ask me "Is Namor meant to be an Asian character?" I'm not sure how to respond to that. I mean, from what I recall, he wasn't born in or near Asia, and I don't think either of his parents could definitively identified as having an Asian background either. I know that a few people have said that his eyes and general expression "look Asian," but honestly, at least if you ask me, Namor is pretty too far removed from a "traditional" human background to be called any human label that applies to real life humans, being the Atlatean/human/mutant hybrid he is. I'm not saying he can't count as a human or person, though I guess I'm trying to say that, respectfully, his case is more... complex to just be simply labelled "Asian," if you know what I mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    There are plenty Asian heroes in Marvel lore like some have pointed out. I think Wong just doesn't knows enough Marvel Comics. I honestly never thought of Namor as Asian until I started hearing this debate on the internet. I remember reading Shang Chi and then seeing Sunfire in the X-Men when I was a kid and those two are pretty recognizable. Shang Chi is even getting a film before Namor.
    Benedict Wong used to collect Marvel comics and read them growing up. He says so in a few interviews over the years that Spider-Man was his favorite.
    It's in Namor's comics that he passes as Asian not just in the golden age and people have noticed, but this doesn't mean he is from Asia or as strict ties to it like other Asian heroes.

    Benedict Wong: I use to collect a lot of Marvel Comics. I was always a big Spider-Man fan. My 3 go to comics were like “Amazing Spider-man”, Spider-man 1, Spider-man…So I would always be at a Comic Book Store in Manchester and just be mining through these stories til you get sort of chucked out.
    link

    Benedict Wong: Well, you know, Spider-Man was my guy. And Peter Parker, Spectacular Spider-Man, Amazing Spider-Man, Web of Spider-Man number one copy I own.
    link

    As I said before Namor doesn't have to be Asian, he is half white/half "other" that is most definitely not white. Even Saladin Ahmed a marvel writer pointed this out.

    Everyone has their own views, you may not see Namor as anything but white but others do. The question here is: "Is Namor meant to be Asian", no he isn't, he may look Asian but his character is not tied to it the same way others like Shang Chi is. There's other examples in the comics, Hank calling Namor "squinty", Namor donning a Japanese uniform without having to "change his face" and still being mistaken for being Japanese. I believe Namor is biracial, and the Atlanteans are POC coded imo, and that Atlanteans are made up of a mix of people otherwise they would not have been able to seamlessly integrate into the surface world at the end of the sub-mariner 2007 series when Namor had them leave the ocean en mass to prevent them being held under government rule. However as I said before I would be ok with an actor like Momoa who is biracial to play Namor, but it's not up to me, I was just providing evidence from the comics and others who share this view.
    Last edited by ImperiusWrecked; 12-08-2019 at 08:38 PM.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  8. #2498
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    As I said before Namor doesn't have to be Asian, he is half white/half "other" that is most definitely not white. Even Saladin Ahmed a marvel writer pointed this out.
    Most definitely not white, as in blue, literally. The Atlanteans are not made up of a bunch of races, they are one race. The Initiative miniseries only makes sense if the Atlanteans are literally in disguise as human races. Having a bunch of different races that all look exactly the same when in their natural state makes zero sense. We're not talking about a modern cosmopolitan London or NYC, we're talking about a people that have been on their own in isolation for some thousands of years and were a distinct race for thousands of years before that. An offshoot of the original Atlanteans went off on their own and eventually became the Lemurians and they actually look different. I would imagine there are a few others, maybe including whatever the barbarian peoples are made up of.
    Last edited by Doombot; 12-08-2019 at 09:59 PM.

  9. #2499
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Benedict Wong used to collect Marvel comics and read them growing up. He says so in a few interviews over the years that Spider-Man was his favorite.
    It's in Namor's comics that he passes as Asian not just in the golden age and people have noticed, but this doesn't mean he is from Asia or as strict ties to it like other Asian heroes.

    link

    link

    As I said before Namor doesn't have to be Asian, he is half white/half "other" that is most definitely not white. Even Saladin Ahmed a marvel writer pointed this out.

    Everyone has their own views, you may not see Namor as anything but white but others do. The question here is: "Is Namor meant to be Asian", no he isn't, he may look Asian but his character is not tied to it the same way others like Shang Chi is. There's other examples in the comics, Hank calling Namor "squinty", Namor donning a Japanese uniform without having to "change his face" and still being mistaken for being Japanese. I believe Namor is biracial, and the Atlanteans are POC coded imo, and that Atlanteans are made up of a mix of people otherwise they would not have been able to seamlessly integrate into the surface world at the end of the sub-mariner 2007 series when Namor had them leave the ocean en mass to prevent them being held under government rule. However as I said before I would be ok with an actor like Momoa who is biracial to play Namor, but it's not up to me, I was just providing evidence from the comics and others who share this view.
    Perhaps Wong knows more about Marvel Comics that I thought but still his wish that Namor was Asian doesn't makes the character Asian.

    Its my opinion and I know we don't share it but I must say I don't think the Asian connection can be attributed because in the comics, characters very sporadically, have pointed out that he has slanted eyes. If it was intended by Everett, Stan Lee or any of the other Namor creators there would have been elements from the oriental culture, so rich in images, myths, alphabet, architecture etc. that the comic should have used in the character's 80 years of existence and nothing of the sort has ever been brought but a mere physical attribute that is not even exclusive of Asian people like his eyes being slanted. Namor even had red hair for awhile. While the Roman and Greek cultures have been part of the character mythos.

  10. #2500
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Completely off current topic, but does anyone know if Meranno died or survived into modern times?

  11. #2501
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    Completely off current topic, but does anyone know if Meranno died or survived into modern times?
    That's a good question and a character with a lots of potential to be developed as part of a much needed group of Namor rogues. I haven't seen no one use him in modern stories but IW or Rev might know better than me.




  12. #2502
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    Completely off current topic, but does anyone know if Meranno died or survived into modern times?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    That's a good question and a character with a lots of potential to be developed as part of a much needed group of Namor rogues. I haven't seen no one use him in modern stories but IW or Rev might know better than me.
    Meranno was featured in the New Invaders series, and in the 9th issue he was taken by Namor to stand trial in Atlantis for his crimes and I believe that is the final chronological modern time Meranno was mentioned. He does show up in other Invaders series as flashbacks etc. even in the rise of the black panther #2 issue, that I think was the last time we saw him but it was in a flashback.

    new invaders.jpg
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  13. #2503
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Will try to read through all the posts in the next day or two. However, I will point out that Everett never intended that Namor be connected to the Atlantis mythos -- that's why he called Namor's people Sub-Mariners and put them beneath Antarctica. Everett was inspired by the polar expeditions, and given his take on the Sub-Mariners, as suffering decimation with their contact with "white men / Americans," it's possible they were also inspired by the Inuit. And Everett would have been acquainted with Native Americans from the time he spent in Arizona in his teens.

    So, the Atlantean / European connection, didn't occur until the Silver Age -- other than Namor's name and ankle wings, of course.
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  14. #2504
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Happy Monday! And some of the best Namor original art by some of the greatest artists in comics:



  15. #2505
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Meranno was featured in the New Invaders series, and in the 9th issue he was taken by Namor to stand trial in Atlantis for his crimes and I believe that is the final chronological modern time Meranno was mentioned. He does show up in other Invaders series as flashbacks etc. even in the rise of the black panther #2 issue, that I think was the last time we saw him but it was in a flashback.

    new invaders.jpg
    Thanks IW, I thought I had seen him somewhere else but I must have confused him with Tyrak.


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