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  1. #1231
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    So many cool posts to absorb! Thanks, Ryan / Doombot! At work so will have to reply late tonite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Did you say where or whether the old/ancient Atlanteans that Namor encountered with Sue and the FF several years back fit into this?
    Was some of their hidden domain impacted? Did they know of this grand plan? I seem to recall that for some reason they were really cut off from the rest of the world, let alone Namor's Atlantis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    As for the Old Atlanteans from Hickman's run, they are something that would need to be faced by Namor and his new Atlantis just like every other region or former province. Namor already seems to have a severe dislike of them, so that's always interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post

    The Old Kings, whatever happened to them? I swear its so infuriating to have something that is completely ignored just after its introduced. I'm sure Namor wouldn't be happy if they were still parading themselves as kings. Having to deal with that would make a good plot line, and there is so much they could do to fill in plot holes from previous dropped plots. The only thing that gets longer for Namor, is how much time he had amnesia after the war, in the beginning I believe it was no more than a decade from Destiny until Johnny Storm, but with the sliding timescale, the time gap get bigger each year. Altanteans like Asgardians are almost immortal, they are very long lived, I think the general longevity is 200 years? but im not sure, but they could easily live much longer, especially Namor, since he could live to be so much older than any other Atlantean.

    IIRC, Hickman had the Old Atlanteans be one of the threats that Neptune helped Namor's Atlanteans combat and chase off into oblivion. They were supposed to be a step above the Faceless Ones, I believe, with an aggressively huge appetite for territorial expansion, i.e. trying to wipe Namor's Atlanteans, and each other, off the face of the planet. They were depicted in hidden scrolls only available to the royals, I believe.

    And despite the cuteness factor of the two heirs Sue took off with, Namor ended up being right, again. They had a big blow out about Sol's Anvil and were fighting each other.

    Don't get me started on the length of the Destine amnesia period. Originally, it was supposed to be a year, maybe two.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  2. #1232
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Wait... is he out and playable in the game? I thought he was supposed to debut on June 12 or something.
    The Atlantean Rifts event is playable now, but Namor is still not a playable character, nor have I seen him for sale yet, nor in one of the crystals. I think he will be able to be palyable very soon, but im playing the event to see the story. So far it says that Namor and Susan have been trapped for a while on a water world, that was made to be Namor's prison, Namor was there longer than Susan. Ben, Johnny, Silver Surfer and Ant Man (Lang) just got sent to this water world, where one can enter but cant leave and of course are not happy that Sue is alone with Namor, but Susan tells surfer who wanted to speak to her alone nothing happened (thank goodness) and that Namor has been helping her built a portal out of there.





    Honestly I'm in this just to see how the story goes cause most of the play is just, punch punch, heal, heal, etc. and I want to see if I get a chance at playing Namor.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  3. #1233
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Invaders #6 Previews are out! Here is the LINK

    Rev! It looks like our ongoing theory about the nature of the bombs might be right?! I can't wait for wednesday!
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  4. #1234
    Mighty Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    So many cool posts to absorb! Thanks, Ryan / Doombot! At work so will have to reply late tonite.

    .
    Ok cool, looking forward to it!

  5. #1235
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Invaders #6 Previews are out! Here is the LINK

    Rev! It looks like our ongoing theory about the nature of the bombs might be right?! I can't wait for wednesday!
    THANK YOU! That looks great! Butch Guice is just killing it on the WWII Namor. How could anyone NOT love this page?



    And the details on Carlos' pages are amazing.

    Indeed. Namor trying to "save us all" sounds more like what we were talking about, i.e. transforming air breathers, than trying to kill all air breathers, doesn't it?

    I still am ambivalent about that, though. I mean, it just doesn't feel right, to me, that Namor is basically playing Dr. Hydro. Especially given what Dr. Hydro did to Betty Dean, and his fears about the transformed air breathers and the Atlanteans. I wonder if Zdarsky has read those Sub-Mariner issues?


    Also, whatever happened to U-Man? I thought he was still around. Wasn't he in one the modern Invaders books?
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  6. #1236
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    The Atlantean Rifts event is playable now, but Namor is still not a playable character, nor have I seen him for sale yet, nor in one of the crystals. I think he will be able to be palyable very soon, but im playing the event to see the story. So far it says that Namor and Susan have been trapped for a while on a water world, that was made to be Namor's prison, Namor was there longer than Susan. Ben, Johnny, Silver Surfer and Ant Man (Lang) just got sent to this water world, where one can enter but cant leave and of course are not happy that Sue is alone with Namor, but Susan tells surfer who wanted to speak to her alone nothing happened (thank goodness) and that Namor has been helping her built a portal out of there.





    Honestly I'm in this just to see how the story goes cause most of the play is just, punch punch, heal, heal, etc. and I want to see if I get a chance at playing Namor.
    Those screen shots are great! Thanks for posting them and the storyline. I'm really strapped for time right now, and haven't gotten to do much of anything fun. In fact, I should be back at the grindstone now, but ...

    I love how Sue says, she loves Reed, but Namor is HERE. LOL!

    Also, I can't wait to play Namor so I can punch Johnny Storm in the face. ;p
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  7. #1237
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    This really needs to be done in a ongoing with a creative team that sets out to build a permanent "world" for Namor and the Atlanteans. I would do it in a heartbeat if I could. The unfortunate thing is, because Atlantis has been destroyed and moved so often, it discredits Atlantis as a single sacred, ancient place. It becomes more of a "Atlantis is in the heart" kind of deal, which I dislike. I have my own ideas of correcting this, but I'll never have my own Sub-Mariner book lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    I would LOVE to hear your ideas! I have some of my own as well, and that whole Atlantis is the heart, or Atlantis is the people was used in the 2007 Sub-Mariner and that Young Namor comic iirc? Which honestly just feels like a quick way to say: Atlantis isn't really gone, Atlantis was with us all along!
    Which can then give them the option to always destroy the buildings without losing "Atlantis".
    Good point, Doombot. That does seem the direction Marvel is going, which, IMO, is simply wrong. Atlantis is a great, mystical location, with mythical resonances, that has so many connections in Marvel and our own history. It is supposed to be an ancient PLACE of magical power and mythological memory for untold eons. It's why the original mer-Atlanteans settled there, in the ruins of old, Thurian Age Atlantis. It's the birthplace of the Inhumans and Morgan Le Fay. The home of gods and shards of reality. Far more people than Namor's have called Atlantis home (though it might be cool to establish the mer-Atlanteans are related to those previous populations). Atlantis may be the oldest place of power on the planet in the MU.

    This is what Marvel should be playing with, instead of jobbing out the Atlanteans and letting every team / character in need of a push destroy it to establish cred they haven't earned.

    As I think IW said previously, and I've also long wanted, Marvel should invest in a BEAUTIFUL, evergreen maxi-series about the history of Atlantis and the Atlanteans, like DC did for Aquaman with Peter David and Esteban Marato's Atlantis Chronicles. Heck, we've got a great art team, with Carlos and Guim. We'd just need a good writer who loves Namor and knows Marvel's history (will respect it without wanting to completely re-write it) who is interested in weaving an EPIC fantasy historical tapestry.
    Last edited by Reviresco; 06-08-2019 at 10:58 AM.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  8. #1238
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Good point, Doombot. That does seem the direction Marvel is going, which, IMO, is simply wrong. Atlantis is a great, mystical location, with mythical resonances, that has so many connections in Marvel and our own history. It is supposed to be an ancient PLACE of magical power and mythological memory for untold eons. It's why the original mer-Atlanteans settled there, in the ruins of old, Thurian Age Atlantis. It's the birthplace of the Inhumans and Morgan Le Fay. The home of gods and shards of reality. Far more people than Namor's have called Atlantis home (though it might be cool to establish the mer-Atlanteans are related to those previous populations). Atlantis may be the oldest place of power on the planet in the MU.

    This is what Marvel should be playing with, instead of jobbing out the Atlanteans and letting every team / character in need of a push destroy it to establish cred they haven't earned.

    As I think IW said previously, and I've also long wanted, Marvel should invest in a BEAUTIFUL, evergreen maxi-series about the history of Atlantis and the Atlanteans, like DC did for Aquaman with Peter David and Esteban Marato's Atlantis Chronicles. Heck, we've got a great art team, with Carlos and Guim. We'd just need a good writer who loves Namor and knows Marvel's history (will respect it without wanting to completely re-write it) who is interested in weaving an EPIC fantasy historical tapestry.
    Yes, we were both talking about that before. A good Atlantean History mini series before a launch of a new Namor ongoing would do much to just reestablish Atlantis as a powerhouse location. Also not constantly blowing it up helps Just like how Namor had the Saga of the Sub-Mariner just before his 90s solo, it helps bring people up to speed and establish the setting without having to do all that and the story for the solo. I will hope for one until the bitter end.

    (sidenote: Rev, have you gotten my private messages? just wanted to make sure they were sent properly cause I was waiting to hear back from you. thanks!)
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  9. #1239
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    First off, Doombot, let me say, WOW! You've obviously spent some quality time on this and it shows. Like IW, this isn't exactly the direction I was thinking, at least in the plot details, but like you, I've been trying to think of ways to clean up the mess modern writers have made of Atlantis and the Atlanteans and restore them to their rightful and original place as one of the premier advanced civilizations of the MU -- instead of one every bozo in a loin cloth can invade, much less destroy, with impunity. Yes. STILL annoyed about Ka-Zar.

    And like you, I've thought the Atlanteans need time, in isolation, to recover, though I haven't been exploring a retcon / hidden history to do so. It's a powerful idea that Namor has been planning and executing this for decades, and at GREAT cost. It shows him as an extremely far-sighted leader, maybe even more than I give him credit for, and I give him a lot of credit. Though I wish more modern writers would realize Namor HAD to be far more cunning and resourceful than they usually portray to have survived the Atlantean court.

    It also shows him as extremely determined and fairly ruthless. While this is not the Namor I grew up with, I do think this falls more in line with the Namor that modern writers have been portraying. After all, they had Namor do a major scorched earth move on his own home, send his civilians into scattered, hopefully safe, hiding, and then took his military to Latveria! That Namor could probably do this. Are you thinking of this as an AU fan fic or as something you'd like to fit into the 616 continuity?



    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    I've loosely formed a skeleton of a story bible of a Sub-Mariner series, usually during bits of downtime I can steal away between "real life" responsibilities. I'm an artist so this usually accompanies sketching and doodling while working this stuff out.
    A lot of this is just me with OCD trying to define or work out proper world building for Namor and Marvel's undersea world. It's really difficult to just create a new story for Namor if you have no idea where his city or cities are, where his people are, who lives where, including enemies etc etc. You don't have a board to play chess on. Often times it's not even clear if Atlanteans are a super advanced society with great technologies or they are hunter gatherers going out spear fishing and living in huts. That's how sorry the state of Marvel's Atlantis is.

    From what I can gather, there are about 3 main Atlantises (Atlanti? Atlantae?) as well as various settlements, outposts and perhaps other Atlantean cities, not including the original continental Atlantis. 1) The current Atlantis, wherever that is, which has been bombed and attacked a number of times in recent years. 2) The second Atlantis which was blown up and abandoned by Namor himself after the Civil War storyline. 3) The Atlantis of Thakorr and Fen. Namor's childhood Atlantis. Even if not 100% accurate, this is vaguely the reality of Marvel's Atlantis.
    Exactly. For most of the last 80 years, the Atlanteans were portrayed as one of, if not the most advanced civilizations on the planet. Somewhere along the way in the last decade or two, someone -- I've yet to pinpoint who -- made the Atlanteans a bunch of nomads whose little tech they have was stolen from the Deviants or some such crap.

    I think, for clarity's sake as well as the emphasis on the power of place, there should be 2 underwater Atlantis cities. The first Atlantis that was built on the ruins of the ancient pre-cataclysm surface Atlantis. It's been destroyed numerous times, but the Atlanteans keep returning and rebuilding. IIRC, the Atlantis Namor blew up had ancient underground tunnels which the populace used to escape, so that wasn't a newer city either. And yes, we'll ignore the idiocy of Robinson's Squadron Supreme story which stupidly had a land mass RIGHT next to Atlantis, since it makes zero sense.

    The second Atlantis is the polar Atlantis where Namor was born and grew up. That was built by Tha-Korr, and he had a reason for moving it there, but I can't remember exactly what it was, right now. Its destruction by Destiny prompted the Atlanteans eventual move back to the original, ancient mid-Atlantic site. Though, it could also have had something to do with being right next to a vampire infested ancient Cthulhuan city. Not to mention next to the prehistoric foes known as the Old Kings of Atlantis. Quality city building choice there, Tha-Korr. ;p

    Speaking of poor choices, there's also New Atlantis, that Namor had built UNDER the mutant island Utopia. But I can hardly count that bit of PIS.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  10. #1240
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    - How I would open a new Sub-Mariner story is with the revelation of a century long secret.

    - As a youth, Namor had many adventures exploring the areas beyond Thakorr's Atlantis in the Southern Ocean that surround Antarctica. The adventurous spirit of a young Namor would have taken him all throughout the Souther Ocean, it's canyons, mounts and coasts of Antarctica itself. He would have seen many wonders, settlements of other Atlanteans, dangerous creatures, the strange warm waters surrounding the hidden Savage Land, but what captured young Namor's imagination was the idea of Subterranea. At that time Subterranea was only a myth and Namor would spend his free time exploring terrifying caves of deep darkness in hopes of discovering some hidden passage to a world beneath the oceans. What he ends up discovering while exploring a large cavern opening beneath a great sea mount range at the foot of the continent of Antarctica is not Subterranea, but that the cavern itself opens up beneath the mountain range to a great agarthan plain, stretching beneath the entire mountain range and extending under both the sea floor and the continent itself. These great plains would be something that would stay with Namor for years afterwards. He would explore them, finding a handful of caverns that lead from the plains to the open ocean under the mountains and that the plains are possibly as big as Madagasgar or New Zealand.

    - This is only a backstory of Namor's discovery and would only be teased as the story developed.

    - The opening of the story would be a team of Atlantean archeologists unearthing an ancient monument from the great ruins of continental Atlantis. Namor himself is on hand to witness the discovery of a massive seated statue of what appears to be an ancient king. A few are saying it to be Kull of Atlantis. The team looks to Namor for consent, and Namor tells them to take the artifact to the "City of Dorma" to be studied before risking it being brought into the "Sacred City". (The City of Dorma being the name of current Atlantis, but only to Namor and his inner circle)

    - In the Mid-Pacific, one of the satellite cities north of Lemuria (which is south of the equator in the mid-pacific) is recovering from a recent attack from the "Golden Shoal". Attuma's great horde, which has a stronghold in the north pacific, is known to all people of the sea as the Great or Golden Shoal and in recent years has only grown more brazen, attacking and testing all boundaries of civilized cities in the Pacific, Indian and even northern Atlanic oceans. The Shoal and the name Attuma is a terror to everyone in every ocean.

    - All cities, settlements and former Provinces of Atlantis are in decline, many having lost contact with Atlantis, been destroyed or overtaken by the Golden Shoal, or willingly isolated themselves from Atlantis and insulated their territories. The oceanic peoples of the world are as confused and lost about the status of Atlantis as we the reader are. It's power faded, it's influence all but gone, it's King seen as weak and ineffectual. The powerful city state of Lemuria and it's surrounding vassal territories are the lone stable power in the ocean, aside from the terror of Attuma's Great Shoal.

    - A warmwater reef cliffside, off the northern coast of Brazil, facing the open ocean is the current home of Arliss Tigershark. Tigershark is unwell, going through one of his many mutations, enduring painful and unstable changes due to his unnatural enhancements years ago at the hands of Doctor Dorcas. He thinks he's delusional when he looks out of his home and sees an island. A floating island, a small floating island with a fortress atop, coming out of the fog of the deep ocean. Once it comes close to the cliffside it calls to him and bids him to enter.

    - Namor swims quietly away from his entourage towards a large monument in the centre square of a dimly lit city street. He lays a great wreath upon the monument, returns to his people, quietly commanding they now leave and return to the Sacred City. The monument is dedicated the King Thakorr and the silent city is the Atlantis of Namor's youth. It is the anniversary of Thakorr's death and his Atlantis is now the Imperial Necropolis.

    - Namor sits quietly in his Imperial Cruiser, the crew make sure not to disturb their monarch as he gazes out the window from his seat in the rear of the cruiser. It passes into mist, they continue south towards Antarctica, the area they enter is covered in blue-grey mist with jagged, shattered mountains distant beyond them. The jet black cruiser speeds toward the mountain range, passing what looks like ancient runestones scattered on the sea floor. They look primeval and otherworldy, covered with glyphs and ancient text, along with the mist, hide the fact the stones are actually full of scanners and other high-tech detection equipment that view the cruiser and it's contents inside and out.

    -The cruiser enters the mouth of a cavern at the root of the mountain, and begins a deep decline through a nightmarish black canyon that seems to go on forever. As the cruiser approaches a glowing light on the far side of the caverns, the silhouettes of two giant sentinels in the dark, unmoving, their glowing eyes coldly scan the ship as it passes towards the light. Before they enter the light, Namor commands the ship to stop. The King of Atlantis wishes to enter the Sacred City alone, ahead of the ship.

    - The Sacred City, of course, is Atlantis. King Namor's greatest secret, his greatest triumph, as well as the source of his greatest guilt. Namor swims into the city, it is vast, sprawling as wide as can be seen, with barley a glimpse of the bare plains that continue on the far edges of the city. There is a great bridge, or freeway like structure piercing the centre of the city, from the canyon entrance all the way to the heart of the city where the Imperial Palace takes prominence. The city is a beautiful mixture of a futuristic society with personal aquatic bikes and ship speeders jetting around the city, yet has a timeless look of antiquity with many of it's structures looking vaguely influenced by ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome and the mediterranean empires. Great palaces, temples, and structures of all sorts. It is a true Atlantis. There are a few massive pillars throughout, reaching up to the roof of the gigantic open plains that emit light, illuminating the roof of the cavern and mimicking the hours of both sun and moon light. The city is filled with art, sculpture and artifacts from every era, from today to the ages before the cataclysm. For decades Namor has had teams of archeologists and historians scour the oceans to bring the greatest art and buildings to this Atlantis, even rebuilding many structures brick for brick. It is rumoured Neptune himself appeared in the city and helped King Namor bless a recreated pyramid from pre-cataclysmic Atlantis that was first built to commune with the god. The city is at once, the most beautiful and most advanced place on the face of the earth, having rediscovered the art, science and magics of all lost ages of Atlantis.

    - How was this done? How did Namor create this and keep it a secret?

    - He began dreaming of this undertaking while still a young Prince of Thakorr's Atlantis. When Atlantis was bombed multiple times and Namor came into power, one of his first actions as sovereign was having teams begin development in the cavern plains. As it became apparent that Atlantis would never again be safe in the open ocean, he made the decision the begin the work of transferring Atlantis into the cavern plains. A good third of the population was moved into the plains and would live and build the city as time went on bearing their children along the way. More and more of Atlantean society moved into the plains, as the city was continuously built year after year. The national project was now a national passion of creating the city inside the plains until only the Imperial military and their families were populating the open sea Atlantis. The might, wealth and creativity of Atlantis is all focused in the great plains, which is why the Atlantis the world knows seems so feeble and their populations so small. The open sea Atlantises have been false. Facades, held up by the will of Namor and the sacrifices of the Imperial military and their families. All attacks on Atlantis have been against half empty cities of poorly resourced military and civilians. Inside the great plains Atlantis grows and flourishes thanks to this sacrifice. The population is in the millions, with an entire full generation of Atlanteans having been born and grown to adulthood inside the Sacred City. Many never having seen the outside. Depending on the timescale one chooses, Namor could have been up to this for the better part of a century.

    - The sacrifice the open sea Atlanteans have made for so many years weighs heavy on Namor, each death is a wound upon his heart. But the time has finally come to call them home, to reach out to all cities and lost provinces, no one has been forgotten, nothing has been in vain and Atlantis is not dead. Atlantis is reborn and will make her presence known to all who live in the sea.

    - This revelation would obviously cause quite a few issues as new powers have since come in to fill the vacuum Atlantis had left behind. Attuma is more powerful then ever, Lemuria has never been willing to submit to Atlantis. This is all on top of the fact many provinces and territories have long since given up on Atlantis and most likely will not easily fall back into the fold.

    - There are now endless possibilities to build supporting characters, both inside and out of Atlantis. New rivals, new enemies and revitalized old ones. I have ideas for many new characters as well, but I fear I'm probably boring people as it is.

    Imperious Rex.
    101010101010101
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  11. #1241
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    - How I would open a new Sub-Mariner story is with the revelation of a century long secret.
    Exactly right! Restored Atlantis to glory, and have a great starting place for cool stories that don't involve deconstruction or having to rebuild Atlantis over years on panel. AND we get a set up for an underwater Game of Thrones political struggle for underwater world -- something I've also long wanted. And I agree, we definitely need more well developed new characters, since Marvel keeps killing off Namor's cast.

    There's a few incidents with Atlantis that might conflict with the idea that it was only populated by the military and only a few civilians. But the only other conflict I can see is that Namor hasn't actually been ruling Atlantis that long. Because Marvel keeps extending Namor's amnesia period into ridiculousness, Namor doesn't become "king" until post FF#1, so according to the sliding timescale, he's only been "king" for maybe 12 - 13 years. Tha-Korr would have had to start and mostly run the Hidden Atlantis project, to have it run as long as you'd want it to -- even if it was Namor's idea.


    A few nits:

    Namor isn't a big fan of Tha-Korr. But he's been shown several times visiting the grave of his mother, Princess Fen.

    Lemuria is in even a bigger mess than Atlantis, I think. Stuart Moore was playing with them being a ... troublesome immigrant population in Atlantis in Namor the First Mutant, complete with having their own enclave in Atlantis called Little Lemuria. IIRC, Mark Waid had Attuma actually ruling Lemuria in his Hulk run -- though I'm thinking that's ended. There's another task I need to add to my list. Sort out the Lemuria mess.

    Attuma as a threat is definitely doable now. But remember, he's had his down times also, including being dead for a few years (real time), and owing his revival to Doctor Doom. There's a debt that is waiting to be collected. 0_0


    But overall, great ideas! I'm impressed! I'd love to read more, either here or in fan fic, or even better, get Marvel to hire you!
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  12. #1242
    Mighty Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    First off, Doombot, let me say, WOW! You've obviously spent some quality time on this and it shows. Like IW, this isn't exactly the direction I was thinking, at least in the plot details, but like you, I've been trying to think of ways to clean up the mess modern writers have made of Atlantis and the Atlanteans and restore them to their rightful and original place as one of the premier advanced civilizations of the MU -- instead of one every bozo in a loin cloth can invade, much less destroy, with impunity. Yes. STILL annoyed about Ka-Zar.

    And like you, I've thought the Atlanteans need time, in isolation, to recover, though I haven't been exploring a retcon / hidden history to do so. It's a powerful idea that Namor has been planning and executing this for decades, and at GREAT cost. It shows him as an extremely far-sighted leader, maybe even more than I give him credit for, and I give him a lot of credit. Though I wish more modern writers would realize Namor HAD to be far more cunning and resourceful than they usually portray to have survived the Atlantean court.

    It also shows him as extremely determined and fairly ruthless. While this is not the Namor I grew up with, I do think this falls more in line with the Namor that modern writers have been portraying. After all, they had Namor do a major scorched earth move on his own home, send his civilians into scattered, hopefully safe, hiding, and then took his military to Latveria! That Namor could probably do this. Are you thinking of this as an AU fan fic or as something you'd like to fit into the 616 continuity?

    Exactly. For most of the last 80 years, the Atlanteans were portrayed as one of, if not the most advanced civilizations on the planet. Somewhere along the way in the last decade or two, someone -- I've yet to pinpoint who -- made the Atlanteans a bunch of nomads whose little tech they have was stolen from the Deviants or some such crap.

    I think, for clarity's sake as well as the emphasis on the power of place, there should be 2 underwater Atlantis cities. The first Atlantis that was built on the ruins of the ancient pre-cataclysm surface Atlantis. It's been destroyed numerous times, but the Atlanteans keep returning and rebuilding. IIRC, the Atlantis Namor blew up had ancient underground tunnels which the populace used to escape, so that wasn't a newer city either. And yes, we'll ignore the idiocy of Robinson's Squadron Supreme story which stupidly had a land mass RIGHT next to Atlantis, since it makes zero sense.

    The second Atlantis is the polar Atlantis where Namor was born and grew up. That was built by Tha-Korr, and he had a reason for moving it there, but I can't remember exactly what it was, right now. Its destruction by Destiny prompted the Atlanteans eventual move back to the original, ancient mid-Atlantic site. Though, it could also have had something to do with being right next to a vampire infested ancient Cthulhuan city. Not to mention next to the prehistoric foes known as the Old Kings of Atlantis. Quality city building choice there, Tha-Korr. ;p

    Speaking of poor choices, there's also New Atlantis, that Namor had built UNDER the mutant island Utopia. But I can hardly count that bit of PIS.
    This is definitely something I'd like to fit within 616. If I were to take a shot at AU, Atlantis would never have been in such a sorry state to begin with! I think the fact that Marvel has taken such little care in keeping their Atlantis stories streamlined and protected like other Marvel "worlds" leaves it open to possible major retcons like this. That is if someone were to take the time and care of doing it right. At this point Squirrel Girl will go scuba diving and knock out Namor and wreck Atlantis again.

    Whether or not there are/were 2 or 3 Atlantises, or if they were technically "new" or rebuilt over existing ruins, doesn't really effect the problem, or my attempt at solution, as the real issue if Atlantis being repeatedly destroyed. If it were just one Atlantis being destroyed over and over, it would make just as much sense to find some other refuge. The real problem is Marvel letting it happen so many times that it's practically a joke at this point.

    I do see Namor as much more of a deep, thoughtful, and yes, ruthless leader (when necessary) than he's given credit for. My favourite version of Namor is from the Silver Age, and that Namor always seemed more thoughtful and tragic than the perpetually angry modern Namor. Though I do love me an angry Namor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    101010101010101
    I'm not even sure what this means, but I hope it's good! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Exactly right! Restored Atlantis to glory, and have a great starting place for cool stories that don't involve deconstruction or having to rebuild Atlantis over years on panel. AND we get a set up for an underwater Game of Thrones political struggle for underwater world -- something I've also long wanted. And I agree, we definitely need more well developed new characters, since Marvel keeps killing off Namor's cast.

    There's a few incidents with Atlantis that might conflict with the idea that it was only populated by the military and only a few civilians. But the only other conflict I can see is that Namor hasn't actually been ruling Atlantis that long. Because Marvel keeps extending Namor's amnesia period into ridiculousness, Namor doesn't become "king" until post FF#1, so according to the sliding timescale, he's only been "king" for maybe 12 - 13 years. Tha-Korr would have had to start and mostly run the Hidden Atlantis project, to have it run as long as you'd want it to -- even if it was Namor's idea.


    A few nits:

    Namor isn't a big fan of Tha-Korr. But he's been shown several times visiting the grave of his mother, Princess Fen.

    Lemuria is in even a bigger mess than Atlantis, I think. Stuart Moore was playing with them being a ... troublesome immigrant population in Atlantis in Namor the First Mutant, complete with having their own enclave in Atlantis called Little Lemuria. IIRC, Mark Waid had Attuma actually ruling Lemuria in his Hulk run -- though I'm thinking that's ended. There's another task I need to add to my list. Sort out the Lemuria mess.

    Attuma as a threat is definitely doable now. But remember, he's had his down times also, including being dead for a few years (real time), and owing his revival to Doctor Doom. There's a debt that is waiting to be collected. 0_0


    But overall, great ideas! I'm impressed! I'd love to read more, either here or in fan fic, or even better, get Marvel to hire you!
    I agree that the real issues facing my story ideas, or any future stories with Namor, are how long Namor has been ruling and how long was his amnesia lasted. Issues that also bother me are his status as a sterile hybrid, akin to a mule, and his oxygen imbalance. Which ties to the amnesia. These are things that need to be corrected, overturned and/or outright undone. In my opinion, Namor should only have had bouts of amnesia and not long periods, no lost years, due to his mutant hybrid physiology, which he and his people had not yet fully understood. By the 60s and his run in with the FF, it would finally be resolved. His hybrid abilities, including his great strength, would be something that have increased over time, and still are in development as he ages. The amnesia was a side effect of his continuous hybrid-mutant development. Namor, both physically and as a person, is under constant growth.

    As for Lemuria, I honestly think that even fans like us, have so little knowledge about what has happened or is happening with Lemuria that you could legitimately just state the condition of Lemuria in any new story and go from there.

    The status of Attuma, Tigershark and most any Namor villian is up in the air, and if Namor's powers are growing as time goes on (as I would see to if I were the boss) then the issue of his foes needing to follow suit needs to be addressed. Attuma and Tigershark in particular are the main two that need serious attention. Both have been all over the place in terms of power and made to look like embarrassing non-threats so many times through the years. That's where the undersea floating fortress comes in with my story idea. Tigershark needs to be ironed out as a character and in terms of his look specifically. Attuma's deaths and defeats and his treatment as a goon or even a bumbler needs a real overhaul. He needs to be taken back to his roots as a terrifying undersea Ghengis Khan. Even Namor should be slightly afraid of him.

    Oh, and as for Doom, there would never be a Sub-Mariner story that didn't involve the good Doctor in some way.

    Thanks for responding, I love exploring this stuff with you guys.

  13. #1243
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Gosh I just love reading all of that, excellent stuff both of you.

    Addressing Namor's rogue gallery should be a big thing, and while Attuma and Tigershark are physical foes, the biggest villain or at least the one who has done more emotional damage to Namor is Llyra. I would love to see a series that progresses where Attuma and Tigershark lead up to Llyra and Lemuria as the Big Bads. Having her return from comic book limbo with a vendetta against Namor and his newly revealed home, knowing that Namor had been smarter than her this whole time would totally irk her into wanting to destroy everything Namor has built.

    Doombots if you ever do write this out as a fanfic, please let me know, there isn't enough Namor fanfics out there and good ones are few and far between.

    As for Lemuria, and the immigrant population and also Dr Hydro, I was reminded of how bigoted the Atlanteans were to anyone who wasn't pure atlantean, I mean aside from Namor constantly having to deal with people thinking he wasn't fit for the throne growing up, but when the Betty Dean and the others were transformed even the Atlanteans didn't accept them, and Namor himself knew it was hard to get them to agree. This all makes me think about why Namor would set off chemical bombs to change people to Atlanteans (or mutants) if he knows that his own people wont agree? I'm sure Zdarsky read the old submariner series if he got the destiny thing still going, and he said he had been thinking about Namor for years now. Just some food for thought.
    Last edited by ImperiusWrecked; 06-08-2019 at 09:23 PM.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  14. #1244
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    (sidenote: Rev, have you gotten my private messages? just wanted to make sure they were sent properly cause I was waiting to hear back from you. thanks!)
    OMG! They are so WONDERFUL! You are wonderful! Please, please, please, share away! Heck, post them here, please.

    Now I've got to see how they look as an avatar here.

    So very happy.

    Namor fans are so talented.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  15. #1245
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    OMG! They are so WONDERFUL! You are wonderful! Please, please, please, share away! Heck, post them here, please.

    Now I've got to see how they look as an avatar here.

    So very happy.

    Namor fans are so talented.
    Thanks Rev! That means alot!

    Ok so what is going on here is that Rev came up with the brilliant idea to make our own Namor 80th anniversary poster and I have been working on the edits. I have four posters with logos across the years, but only two are finished now. Here they are with moments Rev and I picked out:





    I am still picking out panels for the last two posters, then I will be sharing them on other social media sites when all four are done. I want to ask if any other Namor fan here has a request for a panel to be included in the last two posters, one of them will be lovers, family, friends, and foes centered and the other will be whatever goes. let me know with comic issue/panel or if you have a panel then that is great! And I will see if I can fit it in.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

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