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  1. #2506
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    However, I will point out that Everett never intended that Namor be connected to the Atlantis mythos -- that's why he called Namor's people Sub-Mariners and put them beneath Antarctica.
    I recall that Everett was thinking of Atlantis when creating Namor, but didn't specify it because he speculated that Atlantis was real and didn't want to fictionalize it or something like that.

  2. #2507
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Will try to read through all the posts in the next day or two. However, I will point out that Everett never intended that Namor be connected to the Atlantis mythos -- that's why he called Namor's people Sub-Mariners and put them beneath Antarctica. Everett was inspired by the polar expeditions, and given his take on the Sub-Mariners, as suffering decimation with their contact with "white men / Americans," it's possible they were also inspired by the Inuit. And Everett would have been acquainted with Native Americans from the time he spent in Arizona in his teens.

    So, the Atlantean / European connection, didn't occur until the Silver Age -- other than Namor's name and ankle wings, of course.
    That would make sense as his original concept, although the silver age made changes to the Atlanteans and the Roman/Greek mythology and European ancestry for the race was a BIG one. Coming from the 60s cartoons that were so influential to me and had a LOT of Roman/Greek references, from their costumes, architecture and general structure of Atlantis in the series. You had the coliseum were Atlanteans would celebrate and Namor would entertain his subjects with feats of strength and gladiatorial contests and wrestling. The entire setting read like a Hercules movie from the 60s which IMO was great. Is important to notice that Everett continued the character into the silver age and went on with all these changes. I don't remember if Neptune was always referred in the golden age, I'll have to research but I believe he was part of it which would tie his race to the Roman/Greek since the beginning.



    Last edited by Thor-El; 12-09-2019 at 10:26 AM.

  3. #2508
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Will try to read through all the posts in the next day or two. However, I will point out that Everett never intended that Namor be connected to the Atlantis mythos -- that's why he called Namor's people Sub-Mariners and put them beneath Antarctica. Everett was inspired by the polar expeditions, and given his take on the Sub-Mariners, as suffering decimation with their contact with "white men / Americans," it's possible they were also inspired by the Inuit. And Everett would have been acquainted with Native Americans from the time he spent in Arizona in his teens.

    So, the Atlantean / European connection, didn't occur until the Silver Age -- other than Namor's name and ankle wings, of course.
    Atlantis was named in the Golden Age at the end of the 40s, I forget which book. Thankfully the Silver Age expanded and changed a bunch of things from the Golden Age, like the Atlanteans being much more fish-like frog people than human. That made even less sense than anything we've been discussing the last day or so lol.

  4. #2509
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    That would make sense as his original concept, although the silver age made changes to the Atlanteans and the Roman/Greek mythology and European ancestry for the race was a BIG one. Coming from the 60s cartoons that were so influential to me and had a LOT of Roman/Greek references, from their costumes, architecture and general structure of Atlantis in the series. You had the coliseum were Atlanteans would celebrate and Namor would entertain his subjects with feats of strength and gladiatorial contests and wrestling. The entire setting read like a Hercules movie from the 60s which IMO was great. Is important to notice that Everett continued the character into the silver age and went on with all these changes. I don't remember if Neptune was always referred in the golden age, I'll have to research but I believe he was part of it which would tie his race to the Roman/Greek since the beginning.
    The classical influence of mythical Atlantis and Neptune was definitely added in the Buscema Silver Age Sub-Mariner. I think Everett shied away from out-right naming Atlantis in the early days because he wanted Namor to seem like he lived in the real world, in that very classic Marvel way. But like everyone else, we can only surmise what Everett was thinking as he never wrote a lot of it down, which is a real shame.

    You also have to remember that Atlantis is much older than classical Rome or Greece, they were influenced by Atlantis and not the other way round.

  5. #2510
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    The classical influence of mythical Atlantis and Neptune was definitely added in the Buscema Silver Age Sub-Mariner. I think Everett shied away from out-right naming Atlantis in the early days because he wanted Namor to seem like he lived in the real world, in that very classic Marvel way. But like everyone else, we can only surmise what Everett was thinking as he never wrote a lot of it down, which is a real shame.
    I would say Kirby, Colan, and even Silver Age Everett, Buscema didn't come until much later and only did a handful of issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    You also have to remember that Atlantis is much older than classical Rome or Greece, they were influenced by Atlantis and not the other way round.
    Of course but we are talking of modern influence to fictional Atlantis not historical.

  6. #2511
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    I would say Kirby, Colan, and even Silver Age Everett, Buscema didn't come until much later and only did a handful of issues.
    I just meant in that era of Marvel.

  7. #2512
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    I just meant in that era of Marvel.
    Ah, I got you.

    More Greek/Roman elements from the 60s cartoons: An Atlantean classroom:






  8. #2513
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    The kids clearly look more like Peter Pan than oriental kids. Plus there is Namor's council, very reminiscent to the Senate of Greek democracy.






  9. #2514
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    Atlantis was named in the Golden Age at the end of the 40s, I forget which book. Thankfully the Silver Age expanded and changed a bunch of things from the Golden Age, like the Atlanteans being much more fish-like frog people than human. That made even less sense than anything we've been discussing the last day or so lol.
    Sub-Mariner Comics (1941) #31, Namor tells Betty about Atlantis, and the story of the giant magnet.

    When I get access to my laptop I can make a post about scans.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  10. #2515
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    The kids clearly look more like Peter Pan than oriental kids. Plus there is Namor's council, very reminiscent to the Senate of Greek democracy.





    I'm not denying that Namor has influences from Roman culture/mythology, part of what draws me to the myth of Atlantis is its Plato origins. And I'm a huge fan of the "sand and sandal" genre, and I'm a bit of a history nerd though I prefer the golden age of piracy, however my thoughts on this matter, and the matter of other influences that effected Namor are quite long so I will try to put them as coherently as I can when I have a moment.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  11. #2516
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I recall that Everett was thinking of Atlantis when creating Namor, but didn't specify it because he speculated that Atlantis was real and didn't want to fictionalize it or something like that.

    Sort of but not exactly ...

    Roy Thomas: It was interesting, then, that you didn’t call your submerged world “Atlantis.”

    Bill Everett: No, I didn’t want to, because Atlantis to me was another world and a world that existed and I still believe it does, somewhere. I don’t think it’s alive, but I think it was a continent that did exist at one time, so I didn’t want to go that far. But the idea of the submerged continent came from Atlantis.
    Cronin tackles this question here:

    https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-legends-revealed-191/3/

    But both basically support what I said. Everett never intended for Namor to be from Atlantis. It was Stan Lee who named Namor's city as Atlantis in Fantastic Four Annual #1, back in 1964.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    That would make sense as his original concept, although the silver age made changes to the Atlanteans and the Roman/Greek mythology and European ancestry for the race was a BIG one. Coming from the 60s cartoons that were so influential to me and had a LOT of Roman/Greek references, from their costumes, architecture and general structure of Atlantis in the series. You had the coliseum were Atlanteans would celebrate and Namor would entertain his subjects with feats of strength and gladiatorial contests and wrestling. The entire setting read like a Hercules movie from the 60s which IMO was great.
    I don't disagree with much of that, but my point is it was Stan Lee, not Everett, that emphasized / created that -- right down to his now famous and beloved catchphrase "Imperius Rex!" It was Roy Thomas that tied Atlantis to Howard's fictional, fantastical pre-history of the Europe and the Hyborian and pre-Hyborian ages. And writers since have muddied the waters even more, by contradicting themselves on the actual origins of the Atlanteans, i.e. are they literally descended from the REH Atlaneans, or did they just move in and appropriate their ruined sunken city?

    But it was the artists, like Kirby, Colan and Byrne, as well as Everett, who gave Namor's features an Asian look. And it was Everett who intended Namor to be non-white / Other, even if his skin color was white. However, being contradictory and complex, there's no doubt that Everett also drew on classical Greek and Roman elements too -- after all his name IS Roman spelled backwards. ;p




    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    Is important to notice that Everett continued the character into the silver age and went on with all these changes. I don't remember if Neptune was always referred in the golden age, I'll have to research but I believe he was part of it which would tie his race to the Roman/Greek since the beginning.
    Everett didn't really continue developing the character after the Atlas era -- even though he drew him -- that was all Stan Lee and Roy Thomas. In fact, according to Thomas, Everett complained at the formality and speech pattern that Stan Lee saddled Namor with, but of course, Everett went along with it. I'd say Everett is one of the first fans to complain of a character being OOC, but of course, he was more than a fan. Only his last run in the 1970s, where he wrote and drew Namor and created Namorita could be considered Everett developing the character. Notably, Everett did do that great story with Greco / Roman gods in Subby #57, so, he'd definitely bought into that aspect by then.



    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    Atlantis was named in the Golden Age at the end of the 40s, I forget which book. Thankfully the Silver Age expanded and changed a bunch of things from the Golden Age, like the Atlanteans being much more fish-like frog people than human. That made even less sense than anything we've been discussing the last day or so lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Sub-Mariner Comics (1941) #31, Namor tells Betty about Atlantis, and the story of the giant magnet.

    When I get access to my laptop I can make a post about scans.
    I just read this story. It wasn't by Everett, and I'm going to have to agree with Cronin, it wasn't canon. That's the thing people forget about the Golden Age stuff, as fun as it is. The stories are NOT canon. In the MU, they are comics books whose stories may or may not be based off actual events -- but are highly fictionalized. [Insert my usual rant about the tidal wave in Marvels.] I mean seriously? Is Namor going to claim that his ancestors are the ancient air breathing Atlanteans who created GRAVITY by sinking a giant magnet into the core of the world??? That's some Ensign Chekov level nonsense bragging there.
    Last edited by Reviresco; 12-10-2019 at 07:34 PM.
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  12. #2517
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    I absolutely love how this thread is becoming like this:

    tumblr_o16n2kBlpX1ta3qyvo1_1280.jpg

    I wish we could get more people in on it.

  13. #2518
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    I absolutely love how this thread is becoming like this:

    tumblr_o16n2kBlpX1ta3qyvo1_1280.jpg

    I wish we could get more people in on it.
    That episode was the bomb! Charlie explaining all of the connections was hilarious!

  14. #2519
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    I absolutely love how this thread is becoming like this:

    tumblr_o16n2kBlpX1ta3qyvo1_1280.jpg

    I wish we could get more people in on it.
    LOL!

    Well, I'm not going to disagree with that pic. I often feel that way when trying to track down information about Namor's 80 YEAR history. In fact, I found something else on Namor's old 70s pilot script, that I'm going to post when I catch up.

    You are going to LOVE this, Imperius Wrecked! heheheheh
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  15. #2520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    And on tonight's very special episode of "Dancing With The Stars".....

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