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  1. #1816
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Marvel's approach to continuity is pretty simple now that I think about it. It basically makes it so that "the 1940s comics may or may not be strongly fictionalized accounts" in context to the modern Marvel universe, and any modern writers that didn't like a certain detail that goes as far back as 1961 can be easily retconned away or brought back if others writers choose to do so, and casually has all their alternate Earths.

    Meanwhile, DC makes huge continuity reboots multiple times and tends to erase many of their alternate Earths. lol
    There's definitely a few Namor retcons that I'm eager awaiting to be erased.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  2. #1817
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Which comic do you all think is essential for Namor? Or which comic (s) is a must read? Solo or series or even guest starring.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  3. #1818
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Which comic do you all think is essential for Namor? Or which comic (s) is a must read? Solo or series or even guest starring.
    AFAIK, these are highly recommended:

    For Timely
    - From 1954-1955, the final ten issues (#33-42) of the Bill Everett run on the revived Sub-Mariner Comics.

    For Marvel
    - The first eight issues of the Thomas/Buscema run on Sub-Mariner (1968 series).

    - From 1972-1973, the entire Bill Everett run on Sub-Mariner (1968 series).
    Last edited by K7P5V; 09-11-2019 at 11:52 PM. Reason: Made a correction.

  4. #1819
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    AFAIK, these are highly recommended:

    For Timely
    - From 1954-1955, the final ten issues (#33-42) of the Bill Everett run on the revived Sub-Mariner Comics.

    For Marvel
    - The first eight issues of the Thomas/Buscema run on Sub-Mariner (1968 series).

    - From 1972-1973, the entire Bill Everett run on Sub-Mariner (1968 series).
    Oh thank you, I have read many of these and think they are all good choices.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  5. #1820
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    There's definitely a few Namor retcons that I'm eager awaiting to be erased.
    For me to NOT treat Namor like a piece of **** you need to retcon his 1930s flooding of new york. He realistically killed thousands. I can accept him being an ******* and attacking heroes and even attacking military targets but killing thousands of innocents is a no go

  6. #1821
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    For me to NOT treat Namor like a piece of **** you need to retcon his 1930s flooding of new york. He realistically killed thousands. I can accept him being an ******* and attacking heroes and even attacking military targets but killing thousands of innocents is a no go
    Wasn't it stated that the people were evacuated before that?
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  7. #1822
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    I think something that should be considered in regards to Namor's aggression to the surface world, is that so many hundreds and even thousands of his people have died in the course of things over time. Namor isn't a hero to the surface world, he is a hero to his people and sometimes helps the surface world, but to other atlanteans its the surface people who were killing them first and there is a reason why Namor's name means "Avenging Son". I don't like him killing innocents either but the thing about Namor's comics is that he is an anti hero and does what he must to protect his people first. He doesn't really consider himself American or a surfacer. People always forget to point out just how many Atlanteans have died whenever they get on Namor for attacking the surface world, either by manipulation (phoenix force) or for vengeance.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  8. #1823
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    I think something that should be considered in regards to Namor's aggression to the surface world, is that so many hundreds and even thousands of his people have died in the course of things over time. Namor isn't a hero to the surface world, he is a hero to his people and sometimes helps the surface world, but to other atlanteans its the surface people who were killing them first and there is a reason why Namor's name means "Avenging Son". I don't like him killing innocents either but the thing about Namor's comics is that he is an anti hero and does what he must to protect his people first. He doesn't really consider himself American or a surfacer. People always forget to point out just how many Atlanteans have died whenever they get on Namor for attacking the surface world, either by manipulation (phoenix force) or for vengeance.
    I don’t think his people would approve of war being waged on them or something like that if he killed enough innocents to the point that the humans decided to retaliate, regardless of Namor’s intentions. I suppose it just goes back to Marvel’s way of making flawed heroes like the Thing, who ended up fighting to help people even though he didn’t plan to be a superhero at the start and wasn’t sure how to reconcile with himself.

  9. #1824
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Wasn't it stated that the people were evacuated before that?
    The president warns people who don diving helmets or get into shelters but frankly it's immaterial since no diving helmet will save you from the force he's throwing out. The EMPIRE STATE BUILDINGS KNOCKED OVER.



    ht5_53b.jpg

    ht5_53b.jpg
    Last edited by jetengine; 09-12-2019 at 10:21 AM.

  10. #1825
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    For me to NOT treat Namor like a piece of **** you need to retcon his 1930s flooding of new york. He realistically killed thousands. I can accept him being an ******* and attacking heroes and even attacking military targets but killing thousands of innocents is a no go
    First, if you are looking for realism, don't read comics. Remember, the Hulk supposedly has NEVER killed anyone in all his rampages and property destruction. Supposedly, Hyperion didn't kill anyone either, when he lifted Atlantis off the sea bed and threw it down on a mysterious island that had never been near Atlantis ever before -- because he gave the Atlanteans like a minute to abandon the city, and they could always leap off the city while it was being yanked out of the ocean -- cause apparently moving buildings doesn't cause them to fall down on people, not to mention, leaping from great heights apparently isn't harmful either. Unless Morgan Le Fay does the exact the same thing. Then the Atlanteans lost like half their population.

    Second, Namor flooding NYC is something of a retcon itself. It was never part of Marvel continuity until 1990s Marvels. In all the retellings of Namor's history in the Silver Age, and there were many, it is never mentioned. Even during his Bryne trial -- and you'd think it would have been mentioned then, since his attacks on the surface world is what he was on trial for. Frankly, as much as I love Marvels, I think it was mistake to bring in such an over the top Golden Age story. It makes no sense at all if you consider the context, i.e. WWII. "Realistically," Namor basically ended WWII in that story, cause he freaking flooded Italy and Germany entirely! Yes, he didn't just flood NYC. He flooded the entire world.

    Third, it's is stated in Marvels that there weren't casualties, or many, because there was plenty of time for evacuation / making the water tight shelters. This is clearly true, if you consider the context of the era. Had Namor actually "killed thousands," as you say, in a sneak attack on a US city, [cough Pearl Harbor cough], do you think all would have been forgiven and he would be back on the side of the Allies the next issue??? No. "Realistically," the US would have declared war on Atlantis, just as they did on the Axis. Yet another reason why I don't think either Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, or John Byrne thought adding that particular Golden Age story to Marvel continuity proper was ideal.




    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Wasn't it stated that the people were evacuated before that?
    Yes, it is. But that didn't stop Brubaker from ignoring that part of the story in his retelling in Marvels Project. SMH. Like I said, it should have never been added to the MU.



    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The president warns people who don diving helmets or get into shelters but frankly it's immaterial since no diving helmet will save you from the force he's throwing out. The EMPIRE STATE BUILDINGS KNOCKED OVER.



    ht5_53b.jpg

    Those are Golden Age panels. They aren't what really / exactly happened in Marvel continuity.

    And again, it may not be realistic, but it's stated, there were little to no casualties.
    Last edited by Reviresco; 09-14-2019 at 12:21 PM.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  11. #1826
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Which comic do you all think is essential for Namor? Or which comic (s) is a must read? Solo or series or even guest starring.
    OMG. How can I pick???

    Will think on it.

    This is MY opinion, right? Not recommendations for someone wanting to learn about Namor?



    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    AFAIK, these are highly recommended:

    For Timely
    - From 1954-1955, the final ten issues (#33-42) of the Bill Everett run on the revived Sub-Mariner Comics.

    For Marvel
    - The first eight issues of the Thomas/Buscema run on Sub-Mariner (1968 series).

    - From 1972-1973, the entire Bill Everett run on Sub-Mariner (1968 series).

    Those first two are MUST reading, for me too. The Atlas stuff is simply gorgeous Bill Everett work.

    His last work on Subby was technically better, but the stories didn't work that well for the time. The Venus and Ares story is one of my favs, though. Plus, he did create Namorita then!
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  12. #1827
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Which comic do you all think is essential for Namor? Or which comic (s) is a must read? Solo or series or even guest starring.
    Sub-Mariner Comics (1941)

    Sub-Mariner (1968)

    The Defenders (1972)

    The Invaders (1975)

    Avengers (1985)

    Saga of the Sub-Mariner (1988)

    Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990)

  13. #1828
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    OMG. How can I pick???

    Will think on it.

    This is MY opinion, right? Not recommendations for someone wanting to learn about Namor?

    Those first two are MUST reading, for me too. The Atlas stuff is simply gorgeous Bill Everett work.

    His last work on Subby was technically better, but the stories didn't work that well for the time. The Venus and Ares story is one of my favs, though. Plus, he did create Namorita then!
    I am creating a comic reading guide, something that can be passed around, screenshotted and saved for people who dont want to copy whole lists. I do have an essential comics, recommended comics, and solo comics sections as well as sections for each major team namor has been on, avengers, invaders, defenders, cabal, illuminati, xmen, and the fantastic four (i really dislike namor/sue but feel that i should include the time namor joined the FF) however whatever comics you think people would enjoy, its not a full extensive list but more of an easy jumping off point, its 2 pages long, unfinished example below:

    comic guide 1.jpg



    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Sub-Mariner Comics (1941)

    Sub-Mariner (1968)

    The Defenders (1972)

    The Invaders (1975)

    Avengers (1985)

    Saga of the Sub-Mariner (1988)

    Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990)
    Thank you so much! I do have these already on my reading guide, but its good to know that its a stable that fans all agree on.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  14. #1829
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Man. This is hard.

    I'm going to start with the Silver Age and not worry about the Golden Age right now. Here's the start ... a working a list, I'll have to go back and edit. Many times.



    Fantastic Four #4, 6, 9
    Fantastic Four Annual #1

    Avengers #3, 4 - brings Cap into the Silver Age

    X-Men #6

    Fantastic Four #33 - First Attuma

    Daredevil #7

    Tales to Astonish #70 thru 100


    Avengers #40 - gets the Cosmic Cube and takes on Herc

    Sub-Mariner #1-72

    Sub-Mariner #5 Tiger Shark, Diane Arliss, Dr. Dorcas

    Sub-Mariner #8 vs Thing, plus ... Betty Dean!

    Hulk #118 - Awesome slugfest in Atlantis!

    Sub-Mariner #19 Stingray
    Sub-Mariner #20 DOOOOOM

    Avengers #71 First Invaders

    Fantastic Four 102 - 104 Invasion of NYC, Nixon, and Magneto!

    Sub-Mariner #32 First Llyra

    Sub-Mariner #34 Titans Three, precursor to the Defenders

    Sub-Mariner #37 Death of Dorma



    Marvel Feature #1 First Defenders

    Sub-Mariner #67 New costume

    Marvel Two In One 2 -- Gil Kane interiors!

    Fantastic Four #147 and 149 saves Sue marriage

    Super Villain Team Up



    Marvel Fanfare #16 - first Marvel art by Mignola


    Alpha Flight 3, 4,13, 14 - meets Marrina

    Prince Namor the Sub-Mariner #1-4

    Avengers #262 - the Gift! Cap invites Namor into the Avengers




    Saga of Sub-Mariner #1 - 12 - Best retelling of Namor's history in his own words!

    Marvel Fanfare 43 - Mignola does Pirate Namor!

    Marvel Presents 33 - Dying in Paradise - Jim Lee


    Namor the Sub-Mariner #10 - 12 Invaders arc

    Namor the Sub-Mariner #19 and 20 Atlantean clones

    Namor the Sub-Mariner #29 - 40 Harras and Jae Lee run with Suma Ket and Artys Gran

    FF 412 - Saves Sue's marriage ... again.

    Man-Thing 7 and 8 - interesting insight into Atlantis' history


    Fantastic Four 1234 - Gorgeous Jim Lee Namor

    Defenders Indefensible - hilarious take on Defenders by the Justice League International team

    Sub-Mariner Revolution - don't entirely agree with this take on Namor, but for modern readers, this is probably essential

    New Avengers Illuminati -- neccessary for Hickman's New Avengers, but one huge retcon

    Namor the First Mutant - Series, but especially #5
    Last edited by Reviresco; 09-12-2019 at 07:27 PM.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  15. #1830
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Man. This is hard.

    I'm going to start with the Silver Age and not worry about the Golden Age right now. Here's the start ... a working a list, I'll have to go back and edit. Many times.



    Fantastic Four #4, 6, 9
    Fantastic Four Annual #1

    Avengers #3, 4

    X-Men #6

    Fantastic Four #33

    Daredevil #7

    Tales to Astonish #70 thru 100


    Avengers #40

    Sub-Mariner #1-72

    Sub-Mariner #5 Tiger Shark, Diane Arliss, Dr. Dorcas

    Sub-Mariner #8 vs Thing, plus ... Betty Dean!

    Hulk #118

    Sub-Mariner #19 Stingray
    Sub-Mariner #20 DOOOOOM

    Avengers #71 First Invaders

    Fantastic Four 102 - 104

    Sub-Mariner #32 First Llyra

    Sub-Mariner #34 Titans Three

    Sub-Mariner #37 Death of Dorma



    Marvel Feature #1 First Defenders

    Sub-Mariner #67 New costume

    Marvel Two In One 2 -- Gil Kane

    Fantastic Four #147 and 149 saves Sue marriage

    Super Villain Team Up



    Marvel Fanfare #16


    Alpha Flight 3, 4,13, 14

    Prince Namor the Sub-Mariner #1-4

    Avengers #262




    Saga of Sub-Mariner #1 - 12 - mini-series

    Marvel Fanfare 43

    Marvel Presents 33 - Dying in Paradise - Jim Lee

    Namor the Sub-Mariner #10 - 12 Invaders arc

    Namor the Sub-Mariner #19 and 20 Atlantean clones

    Namor the Sub-Mariner #29 - 40 Harras and Jae Lee run

    FF 412 - Saves Sue's marriage ... again.

    Man-Thing 7 and 8


    Fantastic Four 1234

    Defenders Indefensible

    Sub-Mariner Revolution

    New Avengers Illuminati

    Namor the First Mutant - Series
    Oh wow! what a good list, I will be updating my guide since its a work in progress too but I hope to have everything documented and posted by next week (hopefully by wed). thanks rev!
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

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