Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2019

[ImperiusWrecked]

Namor didn't give that amulet to Loa's grandmother, IIRC. He gave it to Betty Dean. I'll have to read it again, but I didn't get the feeling that Loa was related to Namor.


Oh god. Sometimes, I hate the Byrne run. Actually, I hate all the nonsense dealing with the fertility of Atlanteans airbreathers hybrids. Hated Byrne's theory, hated Kamar's sudden appearance, hated Parker's secret eugenics program. None of it made sense.

I mean, does it make sense that a HEREDITARY, ruling monarchy would allow a ruler who couldn't provide an heir? Especially when they have royal heirs, who aren't hybrids, who desperately WANT the throne? No it does not. Does it make any sense that a ruling prince, who didn't have his own father or a supportive father figure, farm out his HEIR to some wacko to raise and never have anything to do with him? No it does not. Does it make any sense that over the centuries, the rulers of Atlantis wouldn't figure out that hey, listening to those scientist were making them more air breather than they were Atlanteans? No it does not.

Seriously. NEED A LONGTERM SOLO BOOK to straighten this mess out. Ugh.

He did give the amulet to Betty and then years later when Alice tried to return it to him after he saved her family he told her to keep it. The implication that Loa is his granddaughter is very subtle, the way that her father seems to resemble Namor, and how Alice back when Namor was courting Betty seemed to have something against Namor, its a theory that someone pointed out to me, I hesitate with it because it would mean that Namor cheated on Betty Dean, I have an issue with a few things in that series but having Namor have a granddaughter seemed like it was something that could have been explored if the series had gone on, especially since the amulet which had laid dormant for so long suddenly turned Loa into a water breather, why would it do that unless it sensed something different about her?

To me Byrne's run is half good and half bad, it had a really strong start but as it went on I felt the writing and art go downhill a LOT, nothing against Jae Lee but his art was hard to look at, as was all 90's era art, and the artist who came after him. Jae Lee has improved a lot and his Namor these days is far better. The whole thing with Llyra coming back and how she r*ped Namor by pretending to be Susan (NO way would he ever have consented to being with Llyra if he had known the truth!) and the Llyron arc up to the crossover event crashed horribly imo.

The beginning was so charming, I loved Carrie and her father and Namor trying to be a business man, but Bryne included a lot of Iron Fist when he went to the savage land etc. and I really did not care one bit about that. The issue was as always, they keep Namor out of the water and away from Atlantis because they think no one cares about Atlantis. We do care about it but its hard to keep going when they don't worldbuild and with a series that's always focused on the surface world.

I think Kamar could have been a good addition to the cast if they had explained it better OR given him an introduction that wasn't that. They said Namor sent him away for his protection but it was so vauge and who did Namor send him with? What happened to Kamar's mother? Had she been killed? They literally brought Kamar into the series just to die. I would have liked to see Namor struggle with trying to overcome his issues with father figures and honestly for Namor, a man who is ALWAYS about protecting his family/people because he has lost so much and who ALWAYS gives his enemies, like Krang, a second chance then to have this whole 'i must kill my son to save atlantis' was very poorly written. I would rather have had Kamar in a different sense or not at all. It could have been a new step for Namor to try to learn how to be a father as well as being a king if they had just handled it better.

I personally dislike the whole Agents of Atlas story and let's not forget how Namor was always mistrusted by Atlanteans and Humans alike, so why would Atlanteans try to make more people like Namor? They hated him! They hated how he wasn't a pure blooded Atlantean!

This is why I ask about the whole thing, there are so many loose ties and plot holes, which is of course expected in a comic character but unlike other character's Namor's time in comics has largely been a straight line, there are not, as far as I could tell any retcons except for this whole: Are Atlanteans sterile or not? thing. I completely agree about a Long Term Series, I think he needs a minimum of five years or more with a writer willing to flesh out his world and fix this mess.

[Restingvoice]

Daniel Dae Kim was one of my picks for Namor, and I have a few.

Attachment 76408

Other people who I believe also showed interest was Brian Tee and Donnie Yen. I think Brian Tee could make a good Namor too, and my other pick would be Rick Yune.

Attachment 76409

I support Rick Yune

[Reviresco]

He did give the amulet to Betty and then years later when Alice tried to return it to him after he saved her family he told her to keep it. The implication that Loa is his granddaughter is very subtle, the way that her father seems to resemble Namor, and how Alice back when Namor was courting Betty seemed to have something against Namor, its a theory that someone pointed out to me, I hesitate with it because it would mean that Namor cheated on Betty Dean, I have an issue with a few things in that series but having Namor have a granddaughter seemed like it was something that could have been explored if the series had gone on, especially since the amulet which had laid dormant for so long suddenly turned Loa into a water breather, why would it do that unless it sensed something different about her?

I'd have to read it again. I do remember Namor said something to Loa's grandmother that was wrong, but Moore was showing how young and immature Namor was at the time. Alice was attracted and afraid of that attraction -- that's part of the reason she didn't get along with Namor. She was a sensible woman. ;p

IIRC, the amulet changed Loa, because she was underwater and because of her X-gene. You'd have to be underwater before it would activate.

To me Byrne's run is half good and half bad, it had a really strong start but as it went on I felt the writing and art go downhill a LOT, nothing against Jae Lee but his art was hard to look at, as was all 90's era art, and the artist who came after him. Jae Lee has improved a lot and his Namor these days is far better. The whole thing with Llyra coming back and how she r*ped Namor by pretending to be Susan (NO way would he ever have consented to being with Llyra if he had known the truth!) and the Llyron arc up to the crossover event crashed horribly imo.

The beginning was so charming, I loved Carrie and her father and Namor trying to be a business man, but Bryne included a lot of Iron Fist when he went to the savage land etc. and I really did not care one bit about that. The issue was as always, they keep Namor out of the water and away from Atlantis because they think no one cares about Atlantis. We do care about it but its hard to keep going when they don't worldbuild and with a series that's always focused on the surface world.

More than one person has notice that Iron Fist sort of hijacked the book near the end of Byrne's run. I agree, it was a mixed bag. The art was nice, and I liked the idea of Namor as a businessman, but other things ... not so much. I hated the chemical blood imbalance thing. REALLY hated it. Almost as much as I hated the hybrid sterility nonsense.

I think Kamar could have been a good addition to the cast if they had explained it better OR given him an introduction that wasn't that. They said Namor sent him away for his protection but it was so vauge and who did Namor send him with? What happened to Kamar's mother? Had she been killed? They literally brought Kamar into the series just to die. I would have liked to see Namor struggle with trying to overcome his issues with father figures and honestly for Namor, a man who is ALWAYS about protecting his family/people because he has lost so much and who ALWAYS gives his enemies, like Krang, a second chance then to have this whole 'i must kill my son to save atlantis' was very poorly written. I would rather have had Kamar in a different sense or not at all. It could have been a new step for Namor to try to learn how to be a father as well as being a king if they had just handled it better.

This mini-series was an interesting story, and had some good parts, but I don't think it always fit Namor.

IIRC, Namor sent Kamar away with that guy who lead the revolt in Atlantis. I can't remember his name, Z something, I think. But Kamar's mother and Namor's motivation for sending Kamar away (REASONS) didn't matter, because, as you said, Kamar was only introduced so Namor could show how ruthless / political he was by killing him, and for that opening gotcha moment. He was never meant to be an addition to Namor's cast, because the writers didn't care about Namor's cast -- they completely invented a new cast. The book was never going to explore Namor being a father, because it was about being a ruthless king. That's not the Namor I had been reading for years, but ok, I can see where they going, and I loved the ending. Of course, absolutely NOTHING came out of that ending, so again, I'm left with a mangled character, for no reason, and no fix in sight.

I personally dislike the whole Agents of Atlas story and let's not forget how Namor was always mistrusted by Atlanteans and Humans alike, so why would Atlanteans try to make more people like Namor? They hated him! They hated how he wasn't a pure blooded Atlantean!

This is why I ask about the whole thing, there are so many loose ties and plot holes, which is of course expected in a comic character but unlike other character's Namor's time in comics has largely been a straight line, there are not, as far as I could tell any retcons except for this whole: Are Atlanteans sterile or not? thing. I completely agree about a Long Term Series, I think he needs a minimum of five years or more with a writer willing to flesh out his world and fix this mess.

The Atlanteans aren't sterile, and despite what Bryne tried to do, I don't think Namor is either.

Well, on this question, my head canon is basically Namor lied, for one reason or another, and most of those people are delusional.

Kamar isn't his kid. His mom might have claimed Kamar was Namor's but he wasn't. He was Byrrah's kid, which WOULD explain why Namor sent him away and hid him. His tutor, Z, made Kamar believe he was Namor's for his own rebellious purposes.

As for Llyra and Llyron -- I just remembered, the writer actually had Vashti or one of the Atlanteans claim Llyron was royal, because he was related to Namor through his airbreather dad, who has ZERO claim on an Atlantean throne. O_O What??!?! Obviously, everyone in Atlantis was infected by Llyra's crazy, including Namor, and they just spouted off the most idiotic thing they could to get through the mess.

As far as the Eugenics Society -- they are a bunch of delusional scientists. The Royals have known about them for ages and used or tried to eliminate them. And let's just forget all that adoption business. Too late for me to try to figure that one out again.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I'd have to read it again. I do remember Namor said something to Loa's grandmother that was wrong, but Moore was showing how young and immature Namor was at the time. Alice was attracted and afraid of that attraction -- that's part of the reason she didn't get along with Namor. She was a sensible woman. ;p

IIRC, the amulet changed Loa, because she was underwater and because of her X-gene. You'd have to be underwater before it would activate.

Ok that makes sense about the amulet. lo, Yes Alice was wary of Namor with good reason. Here is the page I was talking about:

namor the first mutant 5.jpg

Then that last panel becomes a mirror to the next panel which shows Alice's son and the thought that perhaps Namor did have an affair with Alice during a time when he and Betty had a fight/broken up before getting back together since she was upset that Betty had gotten back with Namor earlier in the book:

namor the first mutant 5 1.jpg

More than one person has notice that Iron Fist sort of hijacked the book near the end of Byrne's run. I agree, it was a mixed bag. The art was nice, and I liked the idea of Namor as a businessman, but other things ... not so much. I hated the chemical blood imbalance thing. REALLY hated it. Almost as much as I hated the hybrid sterility nonsense.

This mini-series was an interesting story, and had some good parts, but I don't think it always fit Namor.

IIRC, Namor sent Kamar away with that guy who lead the revolt in Atlantis. I can't remember his name, Z something, I think. But Kamar's mother and Namor's motivation for sending Kamar away (REASONS) didn't matter, because, as you said, Kamar was only introduced so Namor could show how ruthless / political he was by killing him, and for that opening gotcha moment. He was never meant to be an addition to Namor's cast, because the writers didn't care about Namor's cast -- they completely invented a new cast. The book was never going to explore Namor being a father, because it was about being a ruthless king. That's not the Namor I had been reading for years, but ok, I can see where they going, and I loved the ending. Of course, absolutely NOTHING came out of that ending, so again, I'm left with a mangled character, for no reason, and no fix in sight.

The Atlanteans aren't sterile, and despite what Bryne tried to do, I don't think Namor is either.

Well, on this question, my head canon is basically Namor lied, for one reason or another, and most of those people are delusional.

Kamar isn't his kid. His mom might have claimed Kamar was Namor's but he wasn't. He was Byrrah's kid, which WOULD explain why Namor sent him away and hid him. His tutor, Z, made Kamar believe he was Namor's for his own rebellious purposes.

As for Llyra and Llyron -- I just remembered, the writer actually had Vashti or one of the Atlanteans claim Llyron was royal, because he was related to Namor through his airbreather dad, who has ZERO claim on an Atlantean throne. O_O What??!?! Obviously, everyone in Atlantis was infected by Llyra's crazy, including Namor, and they just spouted off the most idiotic thing they could to get through the mess.

As far as the Eugenics Society -- they are a bunch of delusional scientists. The Royals have known about them for ages and used or tried to eliminate them. And let's just forget all that adoption business. Too late for me to try to figure that one out again.

Yes, that whole thing was INSANE. How could Atlanteans who LOVED to always point out how Namor is a half breed suddenly accept another half breed who had zero royal blood?! The whole point of why Namor even has the throne is because Fen is his mother. We suddenly get a story that Leonard moved on and have a family, this flies in the face of his and Namor's short reunion where he had become a shut in due to people hounding him for what happened years ago, where he had always been thinking of Fen. I just hate the whole Llyron arc.

If Kamar was Byrrah's kid that could have made more sense, especially if he was a half atlantean too. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy the Sub-Mariner 2007 series but just the way Kamar was handled could have been way better, and my gosh that ending?! I LOVE it, and really that would have been the perfect place to kick off another super-villain team up. (I just want to see my two favorites in a comic again! It's been so long!)

[Reviresco]

Ok that makes sense about the amulet. lo, Yes Alice was wary of Namor with good reason. Here is the page I was talking about:

namor the first mutant 5.jpg

Then that last panel becomes a mirror to the next panel which shows Alice's son and the thought that perhaps Namor did have an affair with Alice during a time when he and Betty had a fight/broken up before getting back together since she was upset that Betty had gotten back with Namor earlier in the book:

namor the first mutant 5 1.jpg

Thanks for posting those.

I can see what you are talking about. But my interpretation, based on that page and the page where she warns Loa that Namor was like an elf from a fairy tale, supernaturally compelling -- I think she called him shiny -- but fatally compelling, is that Alice disapproved of Namor and Betty's relationship. She felt Namor wasn't treating Betty fairly, and that Betty was acting foolishly and that the relationship was going no where. Which, of course, it was. Namor was a prince of an alien people and Betty was never going be Queen of Atlantis -- and probably didn't want to be -- and Namor wasn't going to live on the surface all his life. The fact that he calls Alice prissy and disapproving tells me Alice never gave in to Namor's 'glamour' despite her attraction to him. If she had, Namor would have thrown that in her face at that moment when he was acting oh so badly.

Yes, that whole thing was INSANE. How could Atlanteans who LOVED to always point out how Namor is a half breed suddenly accept another half breed who had zero royal blood?! The whole point of why Namor even has the throne is because Fen is his mother. We suddenly get a story that Leonard moved on and have a family, this flies in the face of his and Namor's short reunion where he had become a shut in due to people hounding him for what happened years ago, where he had always been thinking of Fen. I just hate the whole Llyron arc.

If Kamar was Byrrah's kid that could have made more sense, especially if he was a half atlantean too. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy the Sub-Mariner 2007 series but just the way Kamar was handled could have been way better, and my gosh that ending?! I LOVE it, and really that would have been the perfect place to kick off another super-villain team up. (I just want to see my two favorites in a comic again! It's been so long!)

This is why I have to hand wave the whole hybrid sterile and associated stuff as either 'they were mistaken' or Namor lying or everyone was infected with the crazy virus and developed tourretts.

Hmmm. Didn't think of that. Byrrah has been such a racist ... but he could have, I guess. It would also make the DNA "evidence" Reed and Tony claimed more credible. Though, it's not like Namor couldn't have LEFT the DNA to throw them off.

That's been Namor's catchphrase for the last 10 to 15 years. WASTED OPPORTUNITIES. We were totally robbed of Super Villain Team Up. And NO. The Cabal doesn't count.

Yes, I'm not really slamming the Sub-Mariner 2007 mini, it's the one I recommend for people that want a get a taste of 'modern' Namor. For the most part I enjoyed it, just like I enjoyed The Depths -- they are both good stories. It's just that neither exactly fit Namor or his history.

But I am slamming the Llyron story. I agree with you. It wasn't very good at all, and I LOVE Llyra. I think she's a great rogue for Namor.

[Reviresco]

Almost forgot. Saw the ad for the upcoming Marvel Comics Presents in EIGHT days and the possible creative teams for the Namor story are:

Greg Pak and Tom Cokker

or

Ann Nocenti and Greg Land


I'm keeping my fingers for Greg Pak!

[ImperiusWrecked]

Almost forgot. Saw the ad for the upcoming Marvel Comics Presents in EIGHT days and the possible creative teams for the Namor story are:

Greg Pak and Tom Cokker

or

Ann Nocenti and Greg Land


I'm keeping my fingers for Greg Pak!

Wasn't Pak the one who did that amazing What if the sub-mariner grew up on land? I LOVE that comic. I hope it's him!

Thanks for posting those.

I can see what you are talking about. But my interpretation, based on that page and the page where she warns Loa that Namor was like an elf from a fairy tale, supernaturally compelling -- I think she called him shiny -- but fatally compelling, is that Alice disapproved of Namor and Betty's relationship. She felt Namor wasn't treating Betty fairly, and that Betty was acting foolishly and that the relationship was going no where. Which, of course, it was. Namor was a prince of an alien people and Betty was never going be Queen of Atlantis -- and probably didn't want to be -- and Namor wasn't going to live on the surface all his life. The fact that he calls Alice prissy and disapproving tells me Alice never gave in to Namor's 'glamour' despite her attraction to him. If she had, Namor would have thrown that in her face at that moment when he was acting oh so badly.


This is why I have to hand wave the whole hybrid sterile and associated stuff as either 'they were mistaken' or Namor lying or everyone was infected with the crazy virus and developed tourretts.

Hmmm. Didn't think of that. Byrrah has been such a racist ... but he could have, I guess. It would also make the DNA "evidence" Reed and Tony claimed more credible. Though, it's not like Namor couldn't have LEFT the DNA to throw them off.

That's been Namor's catchphrase for the last 10 to 15 years. WASTED OPPORTUNITIES. We were totally robbed of Super Villain Team Up. And NO. The Cabal doesn't count.

Yes, I'm not really slamming the Sub-Mariner 2007 mini, it's the one I recommend for people that want a get a taste of 'modern' Namor. For the most part I enjoyed it, just like I enjoyed The Depths -- they are both good stories. It's just that neither exactly fit Namor or his history.

But I am slamming the Llyron story. I agree with you. It wasn't very good at all, and I LOVE Llyra. I think she's a great rogue for Namor.

Agreed the whole Llyron story was just bad. Llyra was a good villain to Namor because unlike Attuma and Krang she got close to him, manipulated him, and caused him far more personal pain by killing Dorma and helping to kill Namor's father. If they were to bring her back as a villain that would be good to have for Namor to go against her again.

Haha, yes Alice was warning about shiny things, seems like Namor was a shiny thing too in her mind. That series is so underrated!

namor the first mutant 5 3.jpg

[ImperiusWrecked]

Ok wait... I just read a link that says we are getting a comic story of Namor in that Marvel Comic Presents. Is this the ONLY thing Marvel is doing for Namor? I would have thought we would get another anniversary special like the 70th?

[Oberon]

I like your ideas - I'm especially partial to Andromeda, for decades (despite her only occasional use)

I'm not really a fan of Dorma coming back. I loved her before, but for the King, I think she is more important as the dead love of his life.

I would prefer that maybe Namor would/could settle down with someone like Andromeda; she is more his equal in terms of warrior stuff, and has a claim of sorts to the Court or nobility of Atlantis

[Thor-El]

Almost forgot. Saw the ad for the upcoming Marvel Comics Presents in EIGHT days and the possible creative teams for the Namor story are:

Greg Pak and Tom Cokker

or

Ann Nocenti and Greg Land


I'm keeping my fingers for Greg Pak!

OH MY GOD! Let it be Greg Land on art pleeease!!! Can it be Greg Pak and Greg Land?

[Reviresco]

Wasn't Pak the one who did that amazing What if the sub-mariner grew up on land? I LOVE that comic. I hope it's him!

Yes! That was such a good story. He also did the Atlantis Amazon War in Hercules with Van Lente, which was a lot of fun. And he did an AU Namor who was half Japanese who fought for the Emperor in WWII! He clearly has some affection for the character, and I really want to see Tom Cokker's Namor.

Ok wait... I just read a link that says we are getting a comic story of Namor in that Marvel Comic Presents. Is this the ONLY thing Marvel is doing for Namor? I would have thought we would get another anniversary special like the 70th?

The only things they've announced for Namor so far is the Marvel Comics Presents story, the Invaders, some Golden Age reprints, and whatever Jason Aaron is doing with Namor in War of hte Realms and Avengers. I'm HOPING that they will do more, but they haven't announced anything else.

[Reviresco]

OH MY GOD! Let it be Greg Land on art pleeease!!! Can it be Greg Pak and Greg Land?

LOL! I knew you'd like that Thor-El, but I you REALLY like that.

I don't know ... has Ann Nocenti ever written Namor?

[Reviresco]

I like your ideas - I'm especially partial to Andromeda, for decades (despite her only occasional use)

I'm not really a fan of Dorma coming back. I loved her before, but for the King, I think she is more important as the dead love of his life.

I would prefer that maybe Namor would/could settle down with someone like Andromeda; she is more his equal in terms of warrior stuff, and has a claim of sorts to the Court or nobility of Atlantis

Clearly, I need to read more with Andromeda.

There's a lot of ladies around Namor ... he definitely needs to settle down!

I love Lady Dorma, but if they bring her back, they need to do it right.

[Reviresco]

Agreed the whole Llyron story was just bad. Llyra was a good villain to Namor because unlike Attuma and Krang she got close to him, manipulated him, and caused him far more personal pain by killing Dorma and helping to kill Namor's father. If they were to bring her back as a villain that would be good to have for Namor to go against her again.

Short of Paul Destine, I don't think anyone has done more awful things to Namor than Llyra. I think she's still around, after her 'death' she was transformed into some sort guardian of Set.

Haha, yes Alice was warning about shiny things, seems like Namor was a shiny thing too in her mind. That series is so underrated!

namor the first mutant 5 3.jpg

That's one of my favorite pages! I love what Alice tells Loa about Namor.

"But do you know what I remember most about him? About Namor?
He was always so shiny.
Like he just stepped out of water, even when he hadn't.
Glistening with sweat and muscle and a fire that seemed to burn from deep inside.
Like a jewel. Or the lights of a city before you actually live in it.
He's not a bad man. But he does hurt people, sometimes."


Yes, Namor the First Mutant was definitely underrated.

[Reviresco]

Marvel Puzzle Quest Variant for #8

Hmmmmm. Yes, a variant cover, but a GAME variant cover. Could this mean ....