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  1. #2536
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    So Namor appeared in Aero (2019) #6! Just the final page but its a set up for the Atlantis Attacks mini



    I've caught up on my Aero reading that story with Wave, Aero, and the Sirenas, I will wait to see what AA will bring since I don't trust the queen of the Sirenas to be truthful about spoilers:
    atlantis being the ones who are attacking them/trying to kill them. IMO Namor is not the one who usually attacks other undersea races unless there was a very good reason for it and the queen seems very shady to me.
    end of spoilers A few panels here
    To be fair we never heard about the existence of other intelligent civilizations in the sea rather than atlanteans.

  2. #2537
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    The "old" Atlanteans in Hickman's FF run?

  3. #2538
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    The "old" Atlanteans in Hickman's FF run?
    Not one of my favourite additions to the mythos. Marvel's Atlantis and undersea realms are so poorly covered that adding another kingdom and race(s) just isn't helpful.

  4. #2539
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    I personally feel Namor is the first biracial superhero, and the Atlanteans are POC coded, more like Inuit or other Indigenous people who have a connection to the oceans like pacific islanders, etc. The influence of the Roman stuff definitely came from the the myth of Atlantis. However even in the early comics Namor speaks of returning to his tribe, the ice palace, all would be subtle references to the people who lived near the northern poles. It would not be too far to think that Everett came up with his own southern tribe of people. Also the references that they were making war on the "white people" not just surface men, were all there. Namor may be "white passing" because of his father but to say he is a white hero is once again ignoring the Atlanteans are their own people, yes they are blue but even when they are out of the ocean they are a mix of races. As for Namor being Asian, I feel that Daniel Henney would make a great Namor but that's just my fancast. Not to mention as recent as 2019 he was mistaken for being Asian because the American soldiers did not recognize him in Marvel Comics Presents #1. That being said, if I could have chosen Namor, Momoa was him, but it's too late because Aquaman did take alot from Namor, including changing their comic character to an actor who seriously if he was in Namor's outfit with pointed ears and wings, would have looked like Namor.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    I love these two issues, I asked the writer on twitter once if he would ever consider writing more Namor and he gave a vague reply. We really need more world building about Atlantis like this.

    Namor imo should be played by a Biracial actor, just like how Aquaman was. The reason I pointed out that Superman parallels is to say that unlike Superman, Namor has been shown with these features even years after and he looked east asian and people have noticed. Benedict Wong, who plays Wong in Doctor Strange, spoke about it in an article briefly.



    Also as I said, the Atlanteans in my opinion are a mix of fantasy, myths, Roman influence, and POC coded characters, there's more than a few references throughout the years that hint at this so it's not a one off thing that people have latched onto. Aquaman was never anything but a white guy yet Momoa played him and everyone loved it, and it made a lot of money, and no one was trying prove that it wasn't comic accurate. If Marvel does Namor well, then he could be bigger than Aquaman.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    I never said Namor had to ONLY be Asian, I'm merely saying that if Namor was played by an POC actor then it's not wrong, it does mesh with some aspects of the character's history unlike all the people who always claim Namor is white and should only be white, yet were silent about Momoa being Aquaman. As for the time of this article there was no Asian heroes in a lead role in the MCU. It won't matter what I say anyways because it's up to Marvel to decide the actor, and him being Atlantean is far more important than the people who keep pointing at Leonard and saying, Namor should be white because his dad is white, they ignore the Atlantean side where he could be literally any mix of races as is shown in the comics.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Benedict Wong used to collect Marvel comics and read them growing up. He says so in a few interviews over the years that Spider-Man was his favorite.
    It's in Namor's comics that he passes as Asian not just in the golden age and people have noticed, but this doesn't mean he is from Asia or as strict ties to it like other Asian heroes.

    link

    link

    As I said before Namor doesn't have to be Asian, he is half white/half "other" that is most definitely not white. Even Saladin Ahmed a marvel writer pointed this out.

    Everyone has their own views, you may not see Namor as anything but white but others do. The question here is: "Is Namor meant to be Asian", no he isn't, he may look Asian but his character is not tied to it the same way others like Shang Chi is. There's other examples in the comics, Hank calling Namor "squinty", Namor donning a Japanese uniform without having to "change his face" and still being mistaken for being Japanese. I believe Namor is biracial, and the Atlanteans are POC coded imo, and that Atlanteans are made up of a mix of people otherwise they would not have been able to seamlessly integrate into the surface world at the end of the sub-mariner 2007 series when Namor had them leave the ocean en mass to prevent them being held under government rule. However as I said before I would be ok with an actor like Momoa who is biracial to play Namor, but it's not up to me, I was just providing evidence from the comics and others who share this view.

    As I stated before, I personally believe Namor should be played by a biracial actor. The question on the board was: Why do people see Namor as Asian? I answered with specifics from the comics, and pointed out that Namor has Asian features that has been referenced and pointed out over 80 years of comics, and this is why people can see an Asian actor in the role, not that Namor only has to be Asian, or that Asian culture was in any way a huge part of Atlantean culture, Namor may pass as Asian but he is Atlantean, he may be coded as looking Asian, but he is Atlantean. Also I stated that Namor may be white passing but that doesn't make him white because he is biracial. I personally believe due to the reading that I have done in the comics the Atlanteans are coded as POC.

    No matter what my opinion is, Rev gave out a very detailed and much more factual reply to Namor being biracial and when the Roman influences were added to Namor's mythos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    You are right Namora wasn't created by Everett, I got confused as they discussed Namora in the interview I'm citing from. The golden age page you link has the girl confused more by the uniform than anything else, Namor takes the helmet off to show that he is not Japanese, and of course he comments on his eyes because they are slanted a common Asian trait-but again not a definite Asian trait. But to be clear I don't disagree that Namor being bi-racial is one of the most importants aspects of the character even though he could look as white as Lloyd Bridges and I don't doubt Everett could have referred to the people of the poles for his "Atlanteans" or POC coded but in no way I see any connection with the Asian culture for the character or the underwater culture, not during the golden age and even less for the silver age which is strongly Roman/Greek..

    Seeing Asian people cast for a movie based in a Greco/Roman environment like Atlantis is as crazy to me as the casting of black actors as Norse gods or the casting of white actors for Wakanda's army. Yes you can get over complicated and explain that they emigrated to Atlantis just to shoehorn them in the movie like everything else. And there were many leading men that were not white during the 60s and 70s Charles Bronson and Yul Brynner come immediately to mind, even Bruce Lee.

    I guess we are going to have to simply agree to disagree.
    The difference between Wakanda and Atlantis, Asgard, is that it is important to the story and the background of the Black Panther that all characters are African. This was very specifically done.

    As for Marvel's Asgard, it is loosely based on Norse mythology, and I believe of the race the actors don't really factor into who should play who, Heimdall in the Thor movies was excellently played imo. Atlantis is fictional as well, race should not matter if the actor is well cast, and the reason I specify Namor being biracial is because he is the first biracial hero and should be played by one. It literally will not matter what the race of the Atlanteans are since they will be covered up with blue makeup, however that doesn't mean that Marvel should only cast all white people because as I said before, I believe the Atlanteans are coded as an indigenous people, Native American or Inuit. I am not trying to shoehorn in any diversity in a fictional race. Many people have stated that Yul Brynner was a great version for an idea of Namor, but perhaps Everett did not like him because as it was pointed out, he disliked the formal royal Namor that came about in the silver age. I personally believe that an actor like Momoa who could play a white (with no hint to any POC coding to the DC's Atlanteans) character then we should have no issue with Namor, who is canonically not white, being played by a biracial actor as well. That's my opinion.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  5. #2540
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    As for the larger discussion we've been having, which is very interesting in my opinion, I know most of us here are not going to agree, especially when the often sensitive and sometimes incendiary topic of race is part of it. I'm glad it hasn't gone that way in our little Namor community here.

    Like I said earlier in the thread, I believe it ultimately comes down to whether you feel Namor should be a certain race in universe or whether you believe Namor (and the Atlanteans) are supposed to represent a certain race in terms of having a story to tell. (OR if you believe neither at all)

    For my part, I absolutely believe Namor is a biracial character, he always has been, and the more important and interesting angle of that issue is the fact that he looks like the half of his racial makeup that he does not feel a connection to. He feels the deeper more powerful connection to the race he will never truly be accepted by. Namor does not feel human, the race is irrelevant in that sense. He knows he will never be genuinely accepted anywhere, and he feels it. It's one of the strongest aspects of his character. He is meant to be an outcast to ALL, humans and Atlanteans alike. He tries so hard to be the greatest example of what an Atlantean is, to prove worthy to his mother, his grandfather and to himself, and yet cannot help but be drawn to the world of his father. The world of the "enemy". Even his body and his powers are at odds. A sea king who can breath air and FLY just as easily as swim the deepest oceans. These are aspects that anyone can connect with, as well as make Namor very unique. (and also why I dislike Namora and Namorita)

    As for whether Namor and the Atlanteans are supposed to actually represent or be stand-in's for certain real races, I feel there is a case to be made (as ImperiusWrecked has done very well) but ultimately it's very slim pickings when it comes to evidence in nearly a century of books. Namor for the most part was meant to simply look slightly strange. Strange enough to seem not quite human, but not strange enough to have you not empathize with him as the super hero. I'm not at all convinced that Namor was designed to be an asian hero because some artists over the years exaggerated certain features or called attention to them. Golden Age examples, like Namor dressing like a Japanese soldier and passing as Japanese are not all that convincing considering he's also done it in another issue where he had to change his features and posture to pass for Japanese or the fact the cover art on the very same issue in question have Japanese people drawn in a way that look nothing like Namor and are horrible racist caricatures. The Golden Age can be completely bonkers, they had no intention of making stories that would be meaningful or lasting, which is why they can't be trusted that much and aren't canon. I'm not dismissing anything, but not relying too heavily on it either.

    Almond shaped eyes do not make Namor asian. Nor does his pink skin make him a white man. Although he is meant to look or pass as a white man, at least at a first glance, and this is a cause of great pain to him. "His flesh as pallidly pink as my own" he says in reference to his father in Saga of the Sub-Mariner. He does not look like his mother, he does not look like his people, those he is meant to rule and lead as an example. He knows it and they know it. Namor is utterly unique and utterly alone. He is also endlessly fascinating.

    Could Namor be played by an asian man in a film? Obviously. Should he be? Should he not be? Should he only be played by someone who is biracial because he is? I don't even know how to answer those. There's really no right answer. Namor has a very distinct look, and narrowing the selection pool down to those who are only this or that makes a difficult job even more difficult. I have yet to see anyone who looks like they could play Namor in my view. Namor just doesn't look like anyone, of any race.
    Last edited by Doombot; 12-11-2019 at 09:41 PM.

  6. #2541
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    So Namor appeared in Aero (2019) #6! Just the final page but its a set up for the Atlantis Attacks mini



    I've caught up on my Aero reading that story with Wave, Aero, and the Sirenas, I will wait to see what AA will bring since I don't trust the queen of the Sirenas to be truthful about spoilers:
    atlantis being the ones who are attacking them/trying to kill them. IMO Namor is not the one who usually attacks other undersea races unless there was a very good reason for it and the queen seems very shady to me.
    end of spoilers A few panels here
    I was liking this panel, until ... WHERE are Namor's ankle wings???

    This Sirenas queen is clearly bad news.
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  7. #2542
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    As for the larger discussion we've been having, which is very interesting in my opinion, I know most of us here are not going to agree, especially when the often sensitive and sometimes incendiary topic of race is part of it. I'm glad it hasn't gone that way in our little Namor community here.

    Like I said earlier in the thread, I believe it ultimately comes down to whether you feel Namor should be a certain race in universe or whether you believe Namor (and the Atlanteans) are supposed to represent a certain race in terms of having a story to tell. (OR if you believe neither at all)

    For my part, I absolutely believe Namor is a biracial character, he always has been, and the more important and interesting angle of that issue is the fact that he looks like the half of his racial makeup that he does not feel a connection to. He feels the deeper more powerful connection to the race he will never truly be accepted by. Namor does not feel human, the race is irrelevant in that sense. He knows he will never be genuinely accepted anywhere, and he feels it. It's one of the strongest aspects of his character. He is meant to be an outcast to ALL, humans and Atlanteans alike. He tries so hard to be the greatest example of what an Atlantean is, to prove worthy to his mother, his grandfather and to himself, and yet cannot help but be drawn to the world of his father. The world of the "enemy". Even his body and his powers are at odds. A sea king who can breath air and FLY just as easily as swim the deepest oceans. These are aspects that anyone can connect with, as well as make Namor very unique. (and also why I dislike Namora and Namorita)

    As for whether Namor and the Atlanteans are supposed to actually represent or be stand-in's for certain real races, I feel there is a case to be made (as ImperiusWrecked has done very well) but ultimately it's very slim pickings when it comes to evidence in nearly a century of books. Namor for the most part was meant to simply look slightly strange. Strange enough to seem not quite human, but not strange enough to have you not empathize with him as the super hero. I'm not at all convinced that Namor was designed to be an asian hero because some artists over the years exaggerated certain features or called attention to them. Golden Age examples, like Namor dressing like a Japanese soldier and passing as Japanese are not all that convincing considering he's also done it in another issue where he had to change his features and posture to pass for Japanese or the fact the cover art on the very same issue in question have Japanese people drawn in a way that look nothing like Namor and are horrible racist caricatures. The Golden Age can be completely bonkers, they had no intention of making stories that would be meaningful or lasting, which is why they can't be trusted that much and aren't canon. I'm not dismissing anything, but not relying too heavily on it either.

    Almond shaped eyes do not make Namor asian. Nor does his pink skin make him a white man. Although he is meant to look or pass as a white man, at least at a first glance, and this is a cause of great pain to him. "His flesh as pallidly pink as my own" he says in reference to his father in Saga of the Sub-Mariner. He does not look like his mother, he does not look like his people, those he is meant to rule and lead as an example. He knows it and they know it. Namor is utterly unique and utterly alone. He is also endlessly fascinating.

    Could Namor be played by an asian man in a film? Obviously. Should he be? Should he not be? Should he only be played by someone who is biracial because he is? I don't even know how to answer those. There's really no right answer. Namor has a very distinct look, and narrowing the selection pool down to those who are only this or that makes a difficult job even more difficult. I have yet to see anyone who looks like they could play Namor in my view. Namor just doesn't look like anyone, of any race.
    The same goes for Namor's voice, I have yet to find a good voice actor who can capture the idea of Namor's voice in my head should Marvel ever make a animated show that features him. I honestly believe the best way to showcase Atlantis and its characters is in animation. Honestly whether or not Namor makes it into the movies, I just hope we get some good comics out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I was liking this panel, until ... WHERE are Namor's ankle wings???

    This Sirenas queen is clearly bad news.
    The same thing happened not too long ago (New Agents of Atlas) to Namora, she was in a full panel and flying but didn't have any ankle wings, though Namora's wings have come and gone over the years, she has been drawn with them since her return. I just don't know why the wings are always being forgotten or like in one case drawn on the wrong place, they were far too low in the Teen Jean comic.



    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  8. #2543
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Marcio Takara (current artist on the Sandman comic) drew a Namor and Emma Frost commission sketch, I hope they post the fully finished art! link

    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  9. #2544
    All-New Member Thane's Avatar
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    Looks a bit gay.

  10. #2545
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Marcio Takara (current artist on the Sandman comic) drew a Namor and Emma Frost commission sketch, I hope they post the fully finished art! link

    Oh my. That's goregous! His work has changed alot over the years. I bet that belongs to Pat Loika. He's a big Namor and Emma and N/E fan.

    I wonder how much Takara is charging?



    Quote Originally Posted by Thane View Post
    Looks a bit gay.

    I know I'm old, but does gay mean something different now? Whatever it means, sign me up for it! Namor and Emma are always hot, and together they are beyond awesomely naughty. If I can't have Lady Dorma for Namor, I'll take Emma.
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  11. #2546
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    The same thing happened not too long ago (New Agents of Atlas) to Namora, she was in a full panel and flying but didn't have any ankle wings, though Namora's wings have come and gone over the years, she has been drawn with them since her return. I just don't know why the wings are always being forgotten or like in one case drawn on the wrong place, they were far too low in the Teen Jean comic.
    I hated the ankle wing placement in that Jean Grey book. Really weird.

    Yeah, Namora, more than any of the other Sub-Mariners, really gets screwed by artists on the ankle wings. I don't know why, but this isn't the first time that's happened.



    Speaking of Namora, here's a variant cover by Jeehyung Lee for Atlantis Attacks.



    https://www.cbr.com/atlantis-attacks...iant-cold-war/
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  12. #2547
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I hated the ankle wing placement in that Jean Grey book. Really weird.

    Yeah, Namora, more than any of the other Sub-Mariners, really gets screwed by artists on the ankle wings. I don't know why, but this isn't the first time that's happened.



    Speaking of Namora, here's a variant cover by Jeehyung Lee for Atlantis Attacks.



    https://www.cbr.com/atlantis-attacks...iant-cold-war/
    Oh this is beautiful!!! Thanks for sharing Rev.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Oh my. That's goregous! His work has changed alot over the years. I bet that belongs to Pat Loika. He's a big Namor and Emma and N/E fan.

    I wonder how much Takara is charging?






    I know I'm old, but does gay mean something different now? Whatever it means, sign me up for it! Namor and Emma are always hot, and together they are beyond awesomely naughty. If I can't have Lady Dorma for Namor, I'll take Emma.
    Seriously I keep hoping we get some Namor/Emma in the future comics since she is literally the only one of Namor's old flames who is available and there's a chance they could be on page together again with Hickman, unlike Marrina where its been years and no interaction. In the recent FF comic its confirmed that Reed/Sue are soulmates so I really hope we don't get any Namor/Sue stuff at any point in the future. (I know I hate on this ship alot but I'm tired of it! I hate that Namor keeps being used for Reed/Sue drama and he needs his own love interest)

    I did send an e-mail yesterday asking for prices after I saw the art and I will have to save up before I can consider commissioning, the bust of a character is priced at $200 (pencil) $350 (inked) and anything else goes higher.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  13. #2548
    Fantastic Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thane View Post
    Looks a bit gay.
    LOL wot...

  14. #2549
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    I will never catch up. I'm feeling very bah humbug today.



    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    So Namor appeared in Aero (2019) #6! Just the final page but its a set up for the Atlantis Attacks mini



    I've caught up on my Aero reading that story with Wave, Aero, and the Sirenas, I will wait to see what AA will bring since I don't trust the queen of the Sirenas to be truthful about spoilers:
    atlantis being the ones who are attacking them/trying to kill them. IMO Namor is not the one who usually attacks other undersea races unless there was a very good reason for it and the queen seems very shady to me.
    end of spoilers A few panels here
    My other question is ... aren't these Sirenas located in the Pacific? Why is Atlantis attacking them? They'd have to move an army across the world. You'd think that would make SOMEONE nervous. And WTF is going on with Lemuria?



    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    To be fair we never heard about the existence of other intelligent civilizations in the sea rather than atlanteans.
    There are a few, but they only get used once or twice as set dressing and then are forgotten.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    The "old" Atlanteans in Hickman's FF run?
    Hickman's Old Atlanteans are another case of Namor having a reason for attacking. They were one of the legendary evils that Neptune himself helped Namor's people defeat. And in another of Hickman's ambiguities, they turned out to do exactly what Namor said they would do -- start a power hungry land grab. Of course, Hickman also had 2 of the young ones join the Future Foundation and "be cute." If I ever got a chance to write Namor, I'd have those turn into ravening shark monsters when they hit puberty. Anyways, they are totally ignored / forgotten now, and we never hear of Sue taking responsibility for them anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    Not one of my favourite additions to the mythos. Marvel's Atlantis and undersea realms are so poorly covered that adding another kingdom and race(s) just isn't helpful.
    Well, it would have been helpful if Hickman or anyone followed up on it. There could have been another giant conflict, with Namor having to form alliances to combat the return of their ancient evil. It could have been epic. Instead, it was just canon fodder.


    Off the top of my head, besides the Old Kings of Atlantis, there are:

    Lemuria
    The Aqueos (who may be erradicated)
    The Faceless Ones
    Mermaids
    Attuma's barbarians
    Men Fish
    People of the Black Sea (2 different groups?)


    Oh, and these ladies, for yet another plot line that went no where.

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  15. #2550
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    I have never seen Men Fish nor Mermaids, but would live to see some spotlight on them, even if only briefly and with lots of mystery!

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