Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2019

[ImperiusWrecked]

If anyone were to look through my posts in this thread they would see that world building is one of the biggest things I harp on, but bringing back a character that's been dead 40 years isn't the way. Fen was resurrected, Namora was resurrected, Namorita was resurrected, Attuma was resurrected, Namor has been resurrected multiple times, I can't remember if TigerShark has been killed off, but bringing back Dorma too, for little more than nostalgia is not worth it in my opinion and adds nothing for Namor or Atlantis.

I think Dorma and Dorcas have been the only ones that stayed dead.

Of course we are both in agreement with world building but it really just ties back to whether or not a writer can make a resurrection stick. Dorma is a part of Atlantis, the people love her and she could add more if a writer makes it so.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I'm sure there's plenty of Forbidden Atlantean Sciences ... actually, cloning is one of them.

What I meant, however, is that Marvel has several clones, like X-23, one of the Spider-Men, Madeline Pryor, etc. And most of the time, the question of a soul doesn't even occur. And then there's all that stuff going on in Krakoa now.

AFAIK only in Atlantis is it stated that the clones are "soulless."

Marvel sure does like their clones, lol. Still Nita is one and she isn't "souless" or I don't think so, so what is the criteria that the Atlantean scientists have determined to be a good clone vs a bad one? Maybe they just don't want multiple clones of people with claims to the throne running around?

[Reviresco]

Marvel sure does like their clones, lol. Still Nita is one and she isn't "souless" or I don't think so, so what is the criteria that the Atlantean scientists have determined to be a good clone vs a bad one? Maybe they just don't want multiple clones of people with claims to the throne running around?

Boy do I feel stupid. I forgot the most pertinent clone! Yes, Namorita.

Of course, part of the deal there, is that Namorita was NOT originally a clone. That's a Bryne retcon. I'd have to go back and read that issue, cause that retcon came about the same time that Byrne insisted that all the Dorma clones were 'soulless.'

No, I don't think the anti-cloning edict was restricted to only the royals. I'm pretty sure they had some sort major upheaval about clones in the past ... which would be an awesome story to explore!

[ImperiusWrecked]

Boy do I feel stupid. I forgot the most pertinent clone! Yes, Namorita.

Of course, part of the deal there, is that Namorita was NOT originally a clone. That's a Bryne retcon. I'd have to go back and read that issue, cause that retcon came about the same time that Byrne insisted that all the Dorma clones were 'soulless.'

No, I don't think the anti-cloning edict was restricted to only the royals. I'm pretty sure they had some sort major upheaval about clones in the past ... which would be an awesome story to explore!

A clone war, A blood war over the overpopulation of clones where one could not determine who was an original or a clone is one of my theories as to why clones are forbidden, it may have taken place centuries in the past.

However you are right, Nita was a clone retcon! The issue is why would Bryne say Dorma's clones were souless but in the same span of time have Nita be a clone? I wish this was expanded on for why some clones could be accepted or not.

[Oberon]

Well, my point of view says that all human/life has a soul, but the problem in cloning Dorma - or anyone - is what soul will be there? That is why I thought of the magical thing about reimplanting the soul. Ben Reilly has his own soul. His personality and traits reflect his Peter-ness though. Likewise Dorma, you can bring a clone back of her, but it would not be the same her. The soul would be different.

[Oberon]

the answer would lie in the ancient era when clones were banned. No doubt because the tinkering of them was to create more of an army than return someone gone. So maybe there is a final part of the procedure that insures non-mindlessness?

[Thor-El]

I'm not such a fan of the cloning idea but more of Atlantean medicine being able to resurrect a seemingly dead person. Suspended animation while the body heals is a very powerful thing in science fiction.

[Reviresco]

Well, my point of view says that all human/life has a soul, but the problem in cloning Dorma - or anyone - is what soul will be there? That is why I thought of the magical thing about reimplanting the soul. Ben Reilly has his own soul. His personality and traits reflect his Peter-ness though. Likewise Dorma, you can bring a clone back of her, but it would not be the same her. The soul would be different.

Well, Byrne pretty much made that clear, because he didn't have one clone of Dorma, he several. They couldn't all have Dorma's soul. Or could they? Hmmmm

I didn't read the Ben Reilly stuff. Did they even address the issue of him having a soul? I mean, did he have to go through some process to acquire one?

It appears, and I could be wrong, but that Hickman is saying recording a person's mind / memories and implanting them in the "clones" is what gives the Krakoa "clones" their souls?

[Reviresco]

I'm not such a fan of the cloning idea but more of Atlantean medicine being able to resurrect a seemingly dead person. Suspended animation while the body heals is a very powerful thing in science fiction.

Wasn't this the idea behind Princess Fen's 'resurrection?' Or was she resurrected by Artys Gran? Man, I really need to do a re-read.

Though, remember, Dorma is well and truly dead. There's no "she was sleeping." After the cloning incident, Namor had to take her remains back to her tomb in a couple of test tubes. O_O

[Iron Maiden]

So which Dorma do you like best? The gentle Dorma or Warrior Queen Dorma? I liked the Warrior Queen version myself. She could take care of herself without needing rescue.

[Reviresco]

A clone war, A blood war over the overpopulation of clones where one could not determine who was an original or a clone is one of my theories as to why clones are forbidden, it may have taken place centuries in the past.

However you are right, Nita was a clone retcon! The issue is why would Bryne say Dorma's clones were souless but in the same span of time have Nita be a clone? I wish this was expanded on for why some clones could be accepted or not.

Well, as I've said before, I have problems with Byrne's run.

the answer would lie in the ancient era when clones were banned. No doubt because the tinkering of them was to create more of an army than return someone gone. So maybe there is a final part of the procedure that insures non-mindlessness?

Sure it could have been either of your suggestions. It could have been religious reasons -- the priesthood of Atlantis used to be part of stories. It could have been an ethical issue, if the clones were used for parts. So many possibilities ... and yet we'll get yet another conflict with the surface world story.

[Reviresco]

Dorma needs to stay dead, it adds to Namor's character. All the constant resurrections at Marvel are a bad thing, not a good thing. Namor needs NEW characters, not dredging up ones that have been dead for 40 years. Make Namor's world bigger not smaller.

I'm all for making Namor's world bigger. However, I'm not so sure making new characters actually does that, especially amongst his supporting cast, and especially when they get used once and are never used again. I mean, how did Argus (I think that was his name) expand Namor's world? How about that old geezer scientist that was a tutor? or something to Namor and Namora in Agents of Atlas, then turned out to be super secret society eugenicist. How about those three council members from the recent Invaders run? Or the full council in Sub-Mariner Revolution? How about Oudvrou? Or The Tridents? Or Carrie Alexander? Or Cindy? Or Patience Drew? Where's the Covenant? Or Nia Noble? Or the People of the Black Sea. Everyone that writes Namor seems to create new characters -- that we never see again.

Ostensibly, Abira did expand the world building, but we've never seen her, or a Logomancer again. Loa gave Namor another connection to the X-Men and connected with his past, but where's she now?

Of course, even when we DO get resurrections, they don't interact with Namor, like Namorita and Marrina.

At this point, it's a rare writer that even remembers Dorma, much less makes her death relevant to Namor's actions or character. I think Jeph Loeb is the only one to do so and that was probably over a decade ago. There was an FF story also ... but I can't remember if it was Millar or not.

I don't disagree with you entirely but there's more I'll chat about later.

[Hypestyle]

what's up with this "tease" where supposedly Namor is among a "villain team": Mephisto, Dracula, Ursa Major, Red Widow, the new Hyperion and Nite-Hawk..?
I really hope that this is a fakeout by Namor. I don't like him as a villain, but this trending treatment of him that way highly disturbs me. It's erasing his history as a superhero.

[Thor-El]

Lets see Asgard has characters like Odin, Sif, Balder, the Warriors Three, characters that are the face of Asgard, that other than Thor relate what means to be from that place, characters that you can go back and read through the mythology and relate to them and the feeling that they are part of Thor's family, faces that go back to the very beginning and you always want to see in a Thor comic.

Dorma & Vashti were those people, the heart and soul of Atlantis! Yes, there has been resurrected Atlanteans but NONE of them, including Namora or Fen have the rich history that Dorma & Vashti have in Namor's mythology. Very recently Marvel made a video they placed on their Youtube and Instagram accounts which gives the Marvel 101 on Dorma at about the same time Invaders #1 came out.

[Thor-El]

So which Dorma do you like best? The gentle Dorma or Warrior Queen Dorma? I liked the Warrior Queen version myself. She could take care of herself without needing rescue.

I think we can have both, the gentle Dorma with her King and Atlantis children and the Warrior Dorma when its time to defend her kingdom. Even in the 60s the very gentle Dorma often times ends up being the one saving Namor or playing a vital part at engineering the villain's defeat.