Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2019

[Doombot]

It's pretty crazy that after all this time it's still so vague. It would drive me nuts, if I were a writer for Namor, not being able to reference where on the planet any of this stuff is taking place. Imagine reading any other comic, whether it was X-men, IronMan or Thor and never really knowing where the events are taking place.

[ImperiusWrecked]

It's pretty crazy that after all this time it's still so vague. It would drive me nuts, if I were a writer for Namor, not being able to reference where on the planet any of this stuff is taking place. Imagine reading any other comic, whether it was X-men, IronMan or Thor and never really knowing where the events are taking place.

Yeah, it's is frustrating since most writers just say "it's in the ocean somewhere near enough to new york for frequent visits" that's a big issue I have, with them all treating the ocean as one place and easy to find Atlantis when the Ocean is vast and there are definitely different settlements and cities for Atlanteans. The Sub-Mariner (2007) says that "Atlantis is not a place its a people" and the same I think for the Young Namor comic, cause they were forced to move in both comics cause their home was destroyed. I hope we can someday have a solid writer who expands the ocean worldbuilding.

[Reviresco]

It's a mess, and as I said before, there is not one single comic or series where we can glean all the necessary worldbuilding of Atlantis and the Sea-vilations (LOL, sorry a sea pun) and other colonies/cities to have a well defined idea of where everything is. In either case I know we had Atlantis, Lemuria (though I haven't read anything about it in some time), Oceanus, Attuma and the Trenches, and other various places like Trident Station etc. where Sea people congregated in one time or another. Also iirc wasn't there a group of sea people who took over Old Atlantis in the Antarctic and Namor had to send them a message that he was the only King? This happened I believe in a Fantastic Four comic and Susan or someone had to be a emissary.

Noooo, not the sea puns!! ;P

Oh, yes. How did I forget those guys? Hickman's Old Kings of Atlantis -- who were so terrible that Neptune had to help the Atlanteans drive them out. And then they promptly became cuddly Future Foundation members. And Sue and the FF forget those 'kings' promptly went into greedy land grabbing fighting, just like Namor said they would. That South Pole is getting crowded with them, and the Aqueos Ry'leh, and Tha-Korr looks more and more like an idiot for moving the Atlanteans down there.

We are never going to get definitive story / book about the undersea world from Marvel. First off, they don't care. Second, they like leaving it vague so they can make up whatever they want to trash the next iteration of Atlantis. Sadly, short of a superstar creator saying, "I want to write the definitive Atlantean Namor series," it just isn't going to happen. So, as usual, it will be up to us fans to fill in the blanks and try to make sense of the scraps they throw us.

There's also the place Abira and the Tridents came from... wasn't it Coral something?

Jason Aaron had some redneck Atlanteans in his Hulk run ... I can't remember exactly where they were supposed to be.

There's Deluvia, which Namor and Marrina started, but I don't remember what happened to them.

There's several colonies / cities mentioned in the Prince Namor mini-series from the 80s, I think.

Suma-Ket was supposed to have come from the North, but I don't think his home was pinpointed either.

There's the Vodani.

There's two groups of mer-folk in the Black Sea. One in a pocket dimension, IIRC, and the other in that Namora one-shot.

I know I'm forgetting something, but that's what I remember off the top of my head. I'll have to see if I can dig out that old map.

It's pretty crazy that after all this time it's still so vague. It would drive me nuts, if I were a writer for Namor, not being able to reference where on the planet any of this stuff is taking place. Imagine reading any other comic, whether it was X-men, IronMan or Thor and never really knowing where the events are taking place.

Most writers really don't care. I mean, look at that nonsense Robinson wrote with the Squadron Supreme. He had Atlantis built right next to a landmass, so Hyperion could uproot the city from the bottom of the ocean floor (allegedly without killing a single soul or toppling any buildings), and dash it to bits on that landmass. There is no landmass (i.e. the top of an undersea mountain) in the middle of the Atlantic sitting right above Atlantis and there never has been.

But since we haven't had a writer for Namor in almost TEN YEARS, it hasn't been that much of an issue. Almost everyone that has used Namor, and Atlantis, in the past DECADE has only used him to prop up other characters, so they don't give rat's buttocks. Why worry about the location of the city, when you are going to have Ka-Zar go down there in his loincloth and singlehandedly wipe everyone out and destroy the city -- all on one breath of air?

No, I'm not in the least bitter.

Yeah, it's is frustrating since most writers just say "it's in the ocean somewhere near enough to new york for frequent visits" that's a big issue I have, with them all treating the ocean as one place and easy to find Atlantis when the Ocean is vast and there are definitely different settlements and cities for Atlanteans. The Sub-Mariner (2007) says that "Atlantis is not a place its a people" and the same I think for the Young Namor comic, cause they were forced to move in both comics cause their home was destroyed. I hope we can someday have a solid writer who expands the ocean worldbuilding.

This is the big problem. Plus EASY TO GET TO. Neither of these should be true. Even today, we don't have the floor of the ocean entirely mapped, and it is extremely difficult for people to visit the ocean depths. Only THREE people have visited the bottom of the Mariana Trench: 2 scientists in 1960 and James Cameron in 2012. THREE.

This is compounded by the fact that the underwater pressure at that depth—approximately 8 tons per square inch, roughly that of 100 elephants standing on your head—causes ordinary instruments to implode.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/90796...est-part-ocean


I think it was in that same Sub-Mariner mini-series, that he says the worst thing that happened to Atlantis, was when it lost it's secrecy and it's myth, and that's certainly true. Now, writers treat it like making a trip to the bottom of the backyard swimming pool.

[Doombot]

All you have to do is look at a map of the sea floor to see how much potential there is. There's endless potential for world building.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Noooo, not the sea puns!! ;P

Oh, yes. How did I forget those guys? Hickman's Old Kings of Atlantis -- who were so terrible that Neptune had to help the Atlanteans drive them out. And then they promptly became cuddly Future Foundation members. And Sue and the FF forget those 'kings' promptly went into greedy land grabbing fighting, just like Namor said they would. That South Pole is getting crowded with them, and the Aqueos Ry'leh, and Tha-Korr looks more and more like an idiot for moving the Atlanteans down there.

We are never going to get definitive story / book about the undersea world from Marvel. First off, they don't care. Second, they like leaving it vague so they can make up whatever they want to trash the next iteration of Atlantis. Sadly, short of a superstar creator saying, "I want to write the definitive Atlantean Namor series," it just isn't going to happen. So, as usual, it will be up to us fans to fill in the blanks and try to make sense of the scraps they throw us.

There's also the place Abira and the Tridents came from... wasn't it Coral something?

Jason Aaron had some redneck Atlanteans in his Hulk run ... I can't remember exactly where they were supposed to be.

There's Deluvia, which Namor and Marrina started, but I don't remember what happened to them.

There's several colonies / cities mentioned in the Prince Namor mini-series from the 80s, I think.

Suma-Ket was supposed to have come from the North, but I don't think his home was pinpointed either.

There's the Vodani.

There's two groups of mer-folk in the Black Sea. One in a pocket dimension, IIRC, and the other in that Namora one-shot.

I know I'm forgetting something, but that's what I remember off the top of my head. I'll have to see if I can dig out that old map.

Iirc wasn't that city abandoned by the people who chose to follow Marrina and Namor after they married and began that city? They swam off in fear after Namor was taken by Poseidon (Neptune) and dropped at the feet of Zeus who blamed him and other Avengers for Hercules being in a near death coma after being beaten. After that I think Namor and Marrina join up with the Avengers for a bit before Marrina goes insane and turns into her sea beast form. I do not think the city was ever repopulated due to it being 'cursed' by Neptune. It's been some time since I read the Marrina arc so I could totally be wrong.

All you have to do is look at a map of the sea floor to see how much potential there is. There's endless potential for world building.

That is so very true but as Rev said it's been almost ten years since a Namor series and the last one had New Atlantis set under Utopia. There is so much potential in a Sub-Mariner series and no one has ever truly made a fully definitive run imo, the closest we got was the 70's run but its dated now and the 90's run had him set so much up on land I honestly forgot how little time he spent in Atlantis. I believe it ended with that crossover event Atlantis Rising? Which iirc didn't do so well as an event because it was so spread out over a lot of books.

Most writers really don't care. I mean, look at that nonsense Robinson wrote with the Squadron Supreme. He had Atlantis built right next to a landmass, so Hyperion could uproot the city from the bottom of the ocean floor (allegedly without killing a single soul or toppling any buildings), and dash it to bits on that landmass. There is no landmass (i.e. the top of an undersea mountain) in the middle of the Atlantic sitting right above Atlantis and there never has been.

But since we haven't had a writer for Namor in almost TEN YEARS, it hasn't been that much of an issue. Almost everyone that has used Namor, and Atlantis, in the past DECADE has only used him to prop up other characters, so they don't give rat's buttocks. Why worry about the location of the city, when you are going to have Ka-Zar go down there in his loincloth and singlehandedly wipe everyone out and destroy the city -- all on one breath of air?

No, I'm not in the least bitter.

This is the big problem. Plus EASY TO GET TO. Neither of these should be true. Even today, we don't have the floor of the ocean entirely mapped, and it is extremely difficult for people to visit the ocean depths. Only THREE people have visited the bottom of the Mariana Trench: 2 scientists in 1960 and James Cameron in 2012. THREE.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/90796...est-part-ocean


I think it was in that same Sub-Mariner mini-series, that he says the worst thing that happened to Atlantis, was when it lost it's secrecy and it's myth, and that's certainly true. Now, writers treat it like making a trip to the bottom of the backyard swimming pool.

LOL. I am also very salty and bitter about this. Marvel ignores Namor unless they need to use him, they do not care about his character or world which should be as powerful as Wakanda and Latveria. Also this is Namor 80th year!!! He was their first character and so far it's crickets, I swear if we didn't have the current Invaders run we would have nothing.

[Reviresco]

All this talk reminded me of this meme someone posted previously, I think here.

[Reviresco]

Iirc wasn't that city abandoned by the people who chose to follow Marrina and Namor after they married and began that city? They swam off in fear after Namor was taken by Poseidon (Neptune) and dropped at the feet of Zeus who blamed him and other Avengers for Hercules being in a near death coma after being beaten. After that I think Namor and Marrina join up with the Avengers for a bit before Marrina goes insane and turns into her sea beast form. I do not think the city was ever repopulated due to it being 'cursed' by Neptune. It's been some time since I read the Marrina arc so I could totally be wrong.

I didn't remember that, though I assumed it was destroyed, cause, like it's 'Wednesday.'

LOL. I am also very salty and bitter about this. Marvel ignores Namor unless they need to use him, they do not care about his character or world which should be as powerful as Wakanda and Latveria. Also this is Namor 80th year!!! He was their first character and so far it's crickets, I swear if we didn't have the current Invaders run we would have nothing.

Atlantis WAS the most powerful first. It's just been degraded and abused over the decades, especially in the last decade or two, to prop up others. It's gone from being THE nation that others measure up against, to be being a joke that can be invaded by non-superhuman Ka-Zar in a loin cloth.


I'm not normally an optimist about Marvel's treatment of Namor, but I'm hoping, with publication of TWO Namor omnibus this year, that maybe, by the end of the year, we'll get a Namor ongoing. We've never had a Namor omnibus before.

[Reviresco]

All you have to do is look at a map of the sea floor to see how much potential there is. There's endless potential for world building.

That is so very true but as Rev said it's been almost ten years since a Namor series and the last one had New Atlantis set under Utopia. There is so much potential in a Sub-Mariner series and no one has ever truly made a fully definitive run imo, the closest we got was the 70's run but its dated now and the 90's run had him set so much up on land I honestly forgot how little time he spent in Atlantis. I believe it ended with that crossover event Atlantis Rising? Which iirc didn't do so well as an event because it was so spread out over a lot of books.

There's a ton of potential with the undersea world. The Aquaman movie showed that. Heck, any TV show on the ocean shows that. It's an amazing environment, and unique amongst all of Marvel's places.

IMO, Namor has had two definitive runs, Everett's original and the Tales to Astonish / Subby 1968 run -- but most of Marvel's characters have their original iconic runs. But, like you said, there hasn't been a more 'modern' definitive run, like Miller's Daredevil or Micheline and Layton's Iron Man or Brubaker's Cap or Priest's Panther. I'm surprised that there's not a creator /creators that doesn't see the potential of doing something significant like that.

[KOSLOX]

Sounds like Namor is going to be appearing in either Dr. Strange 2 or Black Panther 2. Maybe he'll be in both?

They could be setting up for an Atlantis Attacks type of storyline, or possibly with the introduction of the Eternals, and eventually Mutants, possibly set up some sort of global superhero battle for whatever MCU post "Infinity Saga" is.

[Doombot]

What are the two omnibus releases?

[KOSLOX]

What are the two omnibus releases?

Timely's Greatest: The Golden Age Sub-Mariner By Bill Everett - The Pre-War Years Omnibus
Namor the Sub-Mariner by John Byrne and Jae Lee Omnibus

[ImperiusWrecked]

There's a ton of potential with the undersea world. The Aquaman movie showed that. Heck, any TV show on the ocean shows that. It's an amazing environment, and unique amongst all of Marvel's places.

IMO, Namor has had two definitive runs, Everett's original and the Tales to Astonish / Subby 1968 run -- but most of Marvel's characters have their original iconic runs. But, like you said, there hasn't been a more 'modern' definitive run, like Miller's Daredevil or Micheline and Layton's Iron Man or Brubaker's Cap or Priest's Panther. I'm surprised that there's not a creator /creators that doesn't see the potential of doing something significant like that.

Oh yes, I totally meant a more modern run, Tales to Astonish is great! I love the 70's Namor (1968 but i always call it the 70's one) but for something modern we have very few option to choose from, the 2007 sub-mariner was too short and only dealt with the fallout of the first civil war and how that effected him and also brought in Kamar to die. Honestly if you are going to give Namor a kid then maybe actually not kill him? The 2010 Namor had so much potential especially because we barely got to explore more Atlantean Magic. We need something more in the now to combat the last decade of poor use. I still say that the 2007 Sub-mariner was RIPE for a new supervillain team up and we could have had more of Namor trying to regain his footing and rebuilding his underwater empire. But Marvel let that slip through their fingers and just let him flounder until he joined up with the x-men a few years later.

I will be honest when I rec comics to new submariner fans most of them tend to want something more modern (although I love the older comics so much I can understand that not everyone likes that style).

I do hope this year ends with a new namor comic announcement. There is still time! (I try to be hopeful)

[ImperiusWrecked]

Sounds like Namor is going to be appearing in either Dr. Strange 2 or Black Panther 2. Maybe he'll be in both?

They could be setting up for an Atlantis Attacks type of storyline, or possibly with the introduction of the Eternals, and eventually Mutants, possibly set up some sort of global superhero battle for whatever MCU post "Infinity Saga" is.

I'm all for Namor being a Defender in Doctor Strange! I'm not so excited for Marvel to use him as Black Panther's punching bag but ultimately I'm just waiting to see if Marvel is serious about treating Namor right. The Fox/Disney Marvel deal is supposed to be closed today and that means that Marvel has the right to the mutants and FF and other fox stuff, still no solid word about universal and Namor. LINK

I didn't remember that, though I assumed it was destroyed, cause, like it's 'Wednesday.'

Atlantis WAS the most powerful first. It's just been degraded and abused over the decades, especially in the last decade or two, to prop up others. It's gone from being THE nation that others measure up against, to be being a joke that can be invaded by non-superhuman Ka-Zar in a loin cloth.

I'm not normally an optimist about Marvel's treatment of Namor, but I'm hoping, with publication of TWO Namor omnibus this year, that maybe, by the end of the year, we'll get a Namor ongoing. We've never had a Namor omnibus before.

LOL, that Wednesday meme is so accurate and I had to hunt it down but yes, I believe the last time Namor and Marrina's city was spoken of was in Avengers 1968 #285

namor marrina.jpg

[KOSLOX]

I'm all for Namor being a Defender in Doctor Strange! I'm not so excited for Marvel to use him as Black Panther's punching bag but ultimately I'm just waiting to see if Marvel is serious about treating Namor right.

I don't think Coogler would be interested in making a movie like that. There were a lot of themes going on in BP regarding how the dynamic of victims of the black diaspora, and a contemplation the level of shared responsibility black people owe to one another.

My guess would be something more akin to having two brand new global superpowers enter the stage very close to one another and how that would affect global power dynamics. Obviously it could come down to the old order attempting to play them against each other (and there is definitely an interesting story to be told there), or it could show two nations that were previously divorced from those dynamics deciding they are more interested in changing that game.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I don't think Coogler would be interested in making a movie like that. There were a lot of themes going on in BP regarding how the dynamic of victims of the black diaspora, and a contemplation the level of shared responsibility black people owe to one another.

My guess would be something more akin to having two brand new global superpowers enter the stage very close to one another and how that would affect global power dynamics. Obviously it could come down to the old order attempting to play them against each other (and there is definitely an interesting story to be told there), or it could show two nations that were previously divorced from those dynamics deciding they are more interested in changing that game.

The real issue with BP and Namor being a part of it is that it makes zero sense for the Atlanteans and Wakandians to fight, they both have isolated themselves because of the world, they both are technologically advanced, both have great culture and both of their leaders are noble. They should be great allies and the only reason why Namor attacked Wakanda was because he was possessed with the phoenix.

I really would rather Namor be able to stand on his own than continue to be defined by Black Panther and as Black Panther's enemy as he has been since AVX and this extends beyond the comics, mainstream fans know Namor more for the flooding of Wakanda and having the hots for Susan Storm than anything else, if they don't know that then they just call him a rip off Aquaman. I see this alot in the namor search in twitter and hardly anything else. So I'm not against the director, I think he did an amazing job and I loved BP, it was a great movie. I'm only against Namor being anywhere near BP because I know it will only fuel more Marvel creators to continue this 'feud' between them for another decade because creators become inspired by the movie or Marvel wants more comics to match up with the movie. I would rather each character have their own villains than to be constantly pitted against one another.

Edit: Not to mention how the current Marvel cartoons continue to have Atlanteans with Attuma taking Namor's place as an adversary for T'challa as if the character was so replaceable they just could substitute Attuma for Namor and continue the Atlantean/Wakanda thing.