Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2019

[Oberon]

I like your last line; Namor an Undersea Romeo. I would say in addition possibly an Underwater Peter Pan, he never grows old in body or mind/spirit. He'll always hunger for a love he can't ever have. It may be that it is, unconscious or otherwise, a metaphor for his relationship with "man". That he can't ever come to one peace with his own humanness. Stories with some of these ideas submerged under his bond with Sue, are the best for exploring that. Sue should more often be seen as a metaphor for the urge for (some) of humanity to also embrace the idea of being/accepting/loving the 'other'.

[Thor-El]

I agree that Namor is one of the few remaining characters who still embodies the Byronic Romantic age ideals, tragdey and love go hand in hand with Namor and he often loves the pursuit. I do think he could make a good partner, but the whole reason why Dorma was killed was so that Namor would never be happy, Marvel doesn't want Namor to settle, and his whole character is 'caught between worlds with no safe place to be'. Also other than Reed and Sue; marriages in comics are often cut short, retconned (*cough* spider man *cough*) or forgotten, like Marinna and Namor.

I often call Namor, an Undersea Romeo, he is love with the idea of love but has very little experience being in a committed relationship.

I like my characters to have at least a semblance of romantic happiness achieved even if eventually it is taken away from them. I know he had some of this with Marrina but that happened across several team books, not on his own book. And I just like the character of Dorma, would have prefer her and Submariner never to get married so we could have her still in the map.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I like my characters to have at least a semblance of romantic happiness achieved even if eventually it is taken away from them. I know he had some of this with Marrina but that happened across several team books, not on his own book. And I just like the character of Dorma, would have prefer her and Submariner never to get married so we could have her still in the map.

I do hope someone someday can finally give Namor a new romantic interest. I also wish Dorma had stayed alive, but writers think that once a couple is together then it gets boring, which isn't true.

I like your last line; Namor an Undersea Romeo. I would say in addition possibly an Underwater Peter Pan, he never grows old in body or mind/spirit. He'll always hunger for a love he can't ever have. It may be that it is, unconscious or otherwise, a metaphor for his relationship with "man". That he can't ever come to one peace with his own humanness. Stories with some of these ideas submerged under his bond with Sue, are the best for exploring that. Sue should more often be seen as a metaphor for the urge for (some) of humanity to also embrace the idea of being/accepting/loving the 'other'.

ohhhhh yes! I hadn't thought of that but an underwater peter pan works, lol, he can even fly, has pointed ears, and at one point had red hair. Expolring that would be very awesome, I'm not against exploring things with his characters and others like Sue, I wrote out a long complicated head canon once about Namor and Sue: It comes down to, Namor at the time of meetings Sue was under a great deal of trauma, seeing his people's homes destroyed etc. he latches onto the first friendly person (lady) he sees, especially one who is am american and a blonde. I bring up the parallels of Sue and Betty Dean, when Namor first went to land he wrecks havoc on the surface and is stopped by Betty, (who points a gun at him!) and is enthralled by her, and we have those same elements with Susan, Namor has his Horn and Susan sneaks up to steal it/stop him from attacking and they meet. Namor latched on to Susan very early as a not only a pretty woman he wants to fall in love with but also as someone who is safe. Even in later issue with Doctor Doom, Susan is the one who tells the other FF to stand down and not hurt Namor. Exploring story elements, peter pan, romeo, etc would be a great way to showcase Namor's views on relationships and being human/growing up.

[Reviresco]

How many times has Atlantis been destroyed in the past few years? I recall:

-Namor destroying it right after Civil War

-Atlantis being destroyed by Wakanda

-Atlantis being destroyed by Hyperion


I really don't want to see it get destroyed again anytime soon. I feel like that trope has become tiresome.

We had a conversation about this in the Invaders 2019 thread. I think I counted at least 5 times in the last two years. Here's the exchange:

LOL, Namor has had amnesia on and off a few times. As for a count of how many times Atlantis has been destroyed it's probably easier to count how many times it hasn't been totaled. I mean every time it shows up in comic recently it's being blown to kingdom come. Let me think just off the top of my head and I could be wrong but:

Namor Amnesia:

- Marvel Comic Presents
- Namor and the villain Destiny explained why he was an amnesic when Johnny storm meets him (early i think in his 1968 series or the iron man vs namor comic?)
- Later in the same 1968 series Namor had amnesia for a time, I believe it was after his father died, which happened after Lady Dorma died.
- Namor in his 1990 series had amnesia at the start of the savage sub-mariner time
- he also wasn't mentally stable at the start of that 1990 series when he meets Carrie
- Once in a marvel team up with Doctor strange Namor forgot time? Anyways he thought he was still in the war and not the present day.

Atlantis being destroyed:

- Namor's father destroys atlantis
- Sub-mariner 2007 series namor destroys atlantis
- avengers 2018 again atlantis is destroyed
- llyra and the Atlantis rising event 1990s
- Hyperion destroyed atlantis in 2016 Squadron Supreme
- New Atlantis with the mutants was destroyed after AVX/Utopia had fallen
- Also when it was destroyed before Namor had amnesia the first time around before being found by johnny
- OH and also in the Young Namor series Atlantis was made unlivable by the oil in the water

I know I am totally forgetting more times but this was I could recall right now. Also Atlantis was never called that in the early days but it was later, and they keep moving the capital city around because it keeps being destroyed. There have also been cities called Oceanus, where Namor set up for a time. SO yeah, Marvel loves to keep blowing up Atlantis, like all the time.

Wait so if we count it then before Namor is found by Johnny Atlantis (or his city since it wasnt Atlantis then) was destroyed or damaged four times?

- Namor's dad setting off explosives
- Nazis
- Bomb testing in the water
- Destiny

I think that last bit Dr. Strange was a spell, wasn't it?





It's was Morgan Le Fey in Atlantis Rising. Though Llyron takes 'advantage' of that.

I'm not sure if it counts, but during Fear Itself, I don't think Atlantis was destroyed, but conquered by Nekkod and his allies.

You left out the Wakandan attack. So, at least FIVE times since 2007? So, like every TWO YEARS. Ridiculous.

In the 70s, there was the chemical dumping "cloud" that put all the Atlanteans in a coma -- which I guess technically doesn't count as destroying the city, but was where Neptune talked about Atlantis being destroyed.

There was the Deluvia stuff.

Of course, there's the first destruction of Hyborian Atlantis.

And then the implied, but never documented, destruction of Kamuu's mid-Atlantic Atlantis, when the Atlanteans moved to South Pole.





Did the Oracle's ice breaking actually destroy Atlantis? I know it caused damage and killed people.

Same with the Nazis. I'm not entirely sure.

In FF 4, Atlantis was destroyed by atomic testing. However, according to this LINK, they say it was retconned / changed to an outpost of Atlantis. And those same issues retconned Antarctic Atlantis being destroyed by Destiny.





You think? ;p

Hmmm. That didn't turn out quite like I thought ... here's the post you can start with.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post4291244

[Doombot]

Yeeeeeesh.

[Oberon]

I wrote out a long complicated head canon once about Namor and Sue: It comes down to, Namor at the time of meetings Sue was under a great deal of trauma, seeing his people's homes destroyed etc. he latches onto the first friendly person (lady) he sees, especially one who is am american and a blonde. I bring up the parallels of Sue and Betty Dean, when Namor first went to land he wrecks havoc on the surface and is stopped by Betty, (who points a gun at him!) and is enthralled by her, and we have those same elements with Susan, Namor has his Horn and Susan sneaks up to steal it/stop him from attacking and they meet. Namor latched on to Susan very early as a not only a pretty woman he wants to fall in love with but also as someone who is safe. Even in later issue with Doctor Doom, Susan is the one who tells the other FF to stand down and not hurt Namor. Exploring story elements, peter pan, romeo, etc would be a great way to showcase Namor's views on relationships and being human/growing up.

I think in some ways, Sue was semi-Betty Dean, a human who would (eventually) advocate for him, but also spoke to the consciousness or reason why he should stop his attacks on the human race.

When Sue gives him a big smack-down, during Hickman's run, it recalls Betty pointing a gun, or Sue trying to sneak up on him. Namor has said he admires women with spunk or who are not cowards. He has treated Sue and others like this, it perhaps explains his attraction. He is the peak of everything and desires a mate that is the same or close. He once referred to Diane Arliss as one of the bravest Human souls he'd ever met.

[Reviresco]

I like my characters to have at least a semblance of romantic happiness achieved even if eventually it is taken away from them. I know he had some of this with Marrina but that happened across several team books, not on his own book. And I just like the character of Dorma, would have prefer her and Submariner never to get married so we could have her still in the map.

Love the new avatar, Thor-El!

OMG. Never have gotten married? Dorma would have KILLED someone by now. LOL!

I love Dorma. I think it was a huge mis-step on Roy Thomas' part, and usually I like Roy's stories. Of course, it may have been someone else's idea, as Roy left the book immediately after, and that status quo was set up for Gerry Conway's run, IIRC. Hmmm. Now that I think about it, Conway IS the likely culprit. It may have been a test run of Fridging the Girlfriend, before he did it to Spider-Man with Gwen Stacy.


I never really ... appreciated Namor and Marrina as a couple. She didn't strike me as the type of woman he usually was interested in and there just wasn't the ... I hate to say conflict, but yes, the obstacles and classh of passions that usually characterize Namor's other relationships. And then, of course, the very ugly end, which writers keep playing out. Maybe that 's part of the reason why we haven't seen them together since her return.

I'm not sure how I feel about romantic happiness in comic books, especially for Namor. Will have to give it some thought.

I do hope someone someday can finally give Namor a new romantic interest. I also wish Dorma had stayed alive, but writers think that once a couple is together then it gets boring, which isn't true.

Namor's had a few new romantic interests ... but like the rest of his cast, they keep disappearing with new writers!

[ImperiusWrecked]

I never really ... appreciated Namor and Marrina as a couple. She didn't strike me as the type of woman he usually was interested in and there just wasn't the ... I hate to say conflict, but yes, the obstacles and classh of passions that usually characterize Namor's other relationships. And then, of course, the very ugly end, which writers keep playing out. Maybe that 's part of the reason why we haven't seen them together since her return.

If you take all the women Namor has shown interest in over the years and then look at Marrina, she sticks out because she is basically the one who was more... quieter/tamer/non confrontational. I don't dislike them as a couple, and honestly that one panel when Namor remembers her as she was when he had to stop her from hurting the xmen/atlanteans around Utopia was a sad moment. Since they are currently showing her as some teenager type personality I don't think its good to ever get them back together again? I feel that at that point in Namor's life he was very lonely, more so than ever and he had a sweet romance with Marrina, but it's over. The balance in their relationship was always tipped in Namor's favor and she was more passive. I do like the Emma/Namor relationship because both are very strong willed people, but they also work just as friends. I totally agree that Namor needs someone who can challenge his personality and keep things interesting between them, oh and who won't die or be written off!

I think in some ways, Sue was semi-Betty Dean, a human who would (eventually) advocate for him, but also spoke to the consciousness or reason why he should stop his attacks on the human race.

When Sue gives him a big smack-down, during Hickman's run, it recalls Betty pointing a gun, or Sue trying to sneak up on him. Namor has said he admires women with spunk or who are not cowards. He has treated Sue and others like this, it perhaps explains his attraction. He is the peak of everything and desires a mate that is the same or close. He once referred to Diane Arliss as one of the bravest Human souls he'd ever met.

I agree, I always draw parallels between Sue and Betty, especially because they both had feelings for Namor but were able to stand up to him. In the end they both were friends to him and Namor didn't have many of those on the surface. Diane and also I feel Carrie both were great characters, however Carrie was too smart to fall for Namor since she knew his bad luck with romantic interests. It would have been interesting to see Carrie pop up again, or to see Diane's reaction to her husbands beating from Namor.

[Thor-El]

That scene with Marrina was so heartbreaking and powerful, leave it to Alan Davis to create the most perfect panels.

[Thor-El]

Love the new avatar, Thor-El!

Thanks Rev, really appreciate it, that's a couple of my own cosplays. Of course I'm brave enough to do shirtless Thor and speedo Namor just in pictures and put it on an icon. But I did a shirtless Bane at a couple cons so I'm not such a chicken. And then you have guys like Mike Baaden that has the bravery that the job requires. Also his conditioning is 10 times better than mine.

OMG. Never have gotten married? Dorma would have KILLED someone by now. LOL!

I love Dorma. I think it was a huge mis-step on Roy Thomas' part, and usually I like Roy's stories. Of course, it may have been someone else's idea, as Roy left the book immediately after, and that status quo was set up for Gerry Conway's run, IIRC. Hmmm. Now that I think about it, Conway IS the likely culprit. It may have been a test run of Fridging the Girlfriend, before he did it to Spider-Man with Gwen Stacy.


I never really ... appreciated Namor and Marrina as a couple. She didn't strike me as the type of woman he usually was interested in and there just wasn't the ... I hate to say conflict, but yes, the obstacles and classh of passions that usually characterize Namor's other relationships. And then, of course, the very ugly end, which writers keep playing out. Maybe that 's part of the reason why we haven't seen them together since her return.

I'm not sure how I feel about romantic happiness in comic books, especially for Namor. Will have to give it some thought.

Wait! So it was Gerry Conway that killed Dorma, I need to check those credits!!!? The guy that brought back Jane Foster in the most amazing way to Thor in one of the most romantic, superbly drawn comic (Buscema & Giordano)??!! Gerry Conway killed Gwen and Dorma!? What is even more amazing was Conway was almost a teenager when he was writing those stories!

And I agree that Marrina is not typically the type of woman Namor goes for, its usually the strong and manipulative and Marrina never shown any of these traits.

[ImperiusWrecked]

That scene with Marrina was so heartbreaking and powerful, leave it to Alan Davis to create the most perfect panels.

It was really well done.

Thanks Rev, really appreciate it, that's a couple of my own cosplays. Of course I'm brave enough to do shirtless Thor and speedo Namor just in pictures and put it on an icon. But I did a shirtless Bane at a couple cons so I'm not such a chicken. And then you have guys like Mike Baaden that has the bravery that the job requires. Also his conditioning is 10 times better than mine.

Wait! So it was Gerry Conway that killed Dorma, I need to check those credits!!!? The guy that brought back Jane Foster in the most amazing way to Thor in one of the most romantic, superbly drawn comic (Buscema & Giordano)??!! Gerry Conway killed Gwen and Dorma!? What is even more amazing was Conway was almost a teenager when he was writing those stories!

And I agree that Marrina is not typically the type of woman Namor goes for, its usually the strong and manipulative and Marrina never shown any of these traits.

Wait that is you? That is very cool, you do a great cosplay!

[Thor-El]

It was really well done.



Wait that is you? That is very cool, you do a great cosplay!

Yes, thanks IW, means a lot coming from you guys that are really the ultimate Namor fans.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I have a question, I know Namor has had a lot of AU kids, but I was wondering what the list was? Also was Marinna's kids really his kids? I have to reread those comics sometime. I recall a few kids and wanted to list them:

Canon

-Kamar (deceased)

- Marrina's kids (? Not sure if it was confirmed?)

AU

- Remy Mckenzie

- Future son with Abria who was time erased

I know there is more but I can't seem to recall them now

[ImperiusWrecked]

Yes, thanks IW, means a lot coming from you guys that are really the ultimate Namor fans.

It takes a lot of confidence and work to pull off those types of cosplays! Thanks for sharing it!

[Thor-El]

It takes a lot of confidence and work to pull off those types of cosplays! Thanks for sharing it!

Ah, thanks for your support. Here's some bigger shots. I don't think I've ever shown the entire Namor costume in the board. Sorry that I blur my face in the Namor pic but I have a teenage daughter that hates the fact that her old man cosplays so I usually put on a mask or a beard to keep her shame to a minimum. ;P I'm sure others being younger than me don't have that problem. lol To me being such a muscle nerd is what keeps me active, motivated and in shape as I love these characters and love trying to look like them.