Victor Von Doom: Doctor Doom Appreciation 2019

[Coatl]

You know, that's just it. Doom didn't have to go back in the toy-box.

Kristoff could've taken over, and given how in some ways he'd be inexperienced compared to Victor but has his capabilities, we'd have the chance to see a reinvigorated take on the character. Younger, meaner, maybe even a touch more compassionate with the same sort of drive to protect Latveria in Victor's absence. And because he might not have the same mystical prowess, that can lead to some interesting stories in his attempts with things getting out of hand. One possible example of this is combining his Doom persona with something like his House of M power-set. Maybe in combat acting something like Scorpion from Mortal Kombat, a bit more hands on and peels back the armor to reveal a fiery demonic form underneath.

You also had Bendis setting up there being multiple Doombots active in Latveria and thanks to Doombot in Avengers A.I we do know that they can develop on their own. Meaning we could've played up the political angle similarly to the blob except with robots. The green menace that can potentially hide in plain sight looking to conquer America, and adds to the paranoia with whatever Marvel does with the Skrulls for Captain Marvel synergy.

There was also the Galactus-Doom from Marvel Two in One. Sure he's dead, but he can hop bodies, so what if he stealthily hitched a ride back to 616 on our heroes and began body hopping to find a suitable replacement body to match the power he held as Galactus?

And then you also have Victorious whom is a Latverian patriot and might be able to figure something out in how to give herself powers thanks to magic or Victor's left over equipment. She wants Victor back so what if he said no? She'd do it herself and try to lead Latveria back to a "golden age".

We just didn't need him back so soon honestly

To be honest, I think that all those are great ideas.

I love specially the related with Kristoff return. I like his character and has been sadly seen how he has been ignored or even negated. Actually ignoring/negating his existence was one of the reasons that made me reject the Infamous Ironman storyline.

Personally I think that any history trying to humanize Doom has to include the two living persons who actually loves him, Boris and Kristoff, they are his family the fatherly figure and the adopted son.
I don't understand why nobody has shown interest in using Kristoff, a youngling with the intellect of Doom, many of his memories (making him perhaps the person who know him better) and knowledge of magic.

Since the history about how he deals with a set of memories that aren't his, how he gets his magical powers and how he develops, from a poor orphan gypsy boy to a Doom son's I think that boy has a lot of potential. Seeing him as an "Scorpion" kind of character would be fun and coherent since he has shown more interest in physical combat than his father, ability for magic, and taste for theatricals. Sadly he has been ignoring since before Secret wars.

[Iron Maiden]

Ah, nice to see a Kristoff fan here. Welcome, Coatl

I am also disappointed that we've seen nothing of Kristoff since Hickman included him a couple of times in New Avengers. We should have seen him in Infamous Iron Man too. I'd rather Doom deal with the living instead of bringing up his long deceased mother. As far as I am concerned, that storyline was resolved in the GN Triumph and Torment and it should stay that way.

[Coatl]

Ah, nice to see a Kristoff fan here. Welcome, Coatl

I am also disappointed that we've seen nothing of Kristoff since Hickman included him a couple of times in New Avengers. We should have seen him in Infamous Iron Man too. I'd rather Doom deal with the living instead of bringing up his long deceased mother. As far as I am concerned, that storyline was resolved in the GN Triumph and Torment and it should stay that way.

Thank you Iron Maiden.

Is nice to see that some other people has interest in the character. I think that he gets very little love in and out the comics.

To be honest I got and eye on Infamous Iron man for Doom sake, but I agree that they are over exploiting the mom Issue, while closing up to other arcs who could develop the character more. But for me the breaking point was the supposed "problem of succession" since basically negates the existence of Doom son and probably Boris too, the old man has been told to take care of some matters while Doom is out, while Kristoff has been groomed all his life to take control of Latveria in case of Doom death or absence, damn he even has been in charge couple times. I mean he has that young, intelligent (as Doom himself), magical skilled heir with experience in the position, why put in charge a common military?, or even worse a kid with no relation to Latveria at all? I felt a bit sorry for Riri but I can't stand her anymore after that.

As I said see Boris and Kristoff nuclear in Doom development, they are the only ones living people who actually loves him, Boris took care of him all his live and has been unconditional, while his son practically worships him (while at same time trying to be a decent person). Nobody, not even Valeria Richards love him more. And Doom has show a soft spot on them even in those times while he was presented as a full villain, so now that they are trying to show a more human and well intended Doom could be great bring back those who make him feel more human in first place.

As for Kristoff the last good representation of him IMO was in Spider-Man/Fantastic Four #4 who was actually the issue who made me like the boy, there we had a cunning, magical skilled and slightly mentally damaged boy... kicking FF AND Spider-man around, just to reveal a lonely child asking for help. I felt a bit disappointed when they just shrug and demean him as a lost cause.

I was glad to see him in NA since was clear that he was comfortable around his father and Victor was trusting and grooming him again even if I don't agree in how old he has been portrayed nowadays (he was originally just barely older than Franklin, and even when Kristoff grow up, he was just a year older than Cassi Lang, his crush and another missing opportunity), also seeing him comfortable enough to roast Namor was kind of fun even when I like Namor (but must be noted that even when he had fun at his expense, he actually tried to talk with his father on Namor behalf even if he didn't dare to insist) but again got disappointed at seeing that he has not even a small role in the event and by the time of Secret wars he got forgotten again. Was a bit uncomfortable seeing that he doesn't get even a mention and Doom got settled down with Susan with Franklin and Valeria as new sons and until now we don't know anything about him.

[XPac]

Ah, nice to see a Kristoff fan here. Welcome, Coatl

I am also disappointed that we've seen nothing of Kristoff since Hickman included him a couple of times in New Avengers. We should have seen him in Infamous Iron Man too. I'd rather Doom deal with the living instead of bringing up his long deceased mother. As far as I am concerned, that storyline was resolved in the GN Triumph and Torment and it should stay that way.

I still feel as though we totally missed out on an entire chapter between Kristoff and Doom. Sometime before Hickmans run they seemed to have gotten on good terms again, and that was completely skipped over.

You'd think he would be involved in some of the Cassie stuff too. Her death and her return should have at least warrented a panel or two somewhere.

Kristoff definatey needs more panel time.

[DoomScribe]

"I have always been a hero. The problem is that the four of you lack the proper perspective."

That and the dialogue of the natives ... "The Master is so thoughtful" and "What a horrible woman. Easy to see why Lord Doom is so annoyed by them."

Brings a smile to my heart.

[nj06]

I'm loving all of this Kristoff talk. As some of you might be aware I pop in this thread every now and then and many of my posts involve me asking/inquiring about Kristoff and what he has been up to. I also feel that there have been multiple missed opportunities to showcase Kristoff. I would like to know Kristoff's reaction to not even being revived by Doom during Secret Wars II. I think he can also act as a great foe for Marvel's younger heroes such as the Champions. I always imagined him having a personality similar to David Xanatos from the 90's Gargoyles cartoon. He's not evil per-say, but will do whatever he has to get what he wants.

[Coatl]

I still feel as though we totally missed out on an entire chapter between Kristoff and Doom. Sometime before Hickmans run they seemed to have gotten on good terms again, and that was completely skipped over.

I couldn't be able to find the article but I remembering something about Hickmans being aware that last time we have seen Kristoff (Spiderman and FF) he was mentally damaged (for studing advanced dark arts without a mentor) and seeking revenge on Doom (in large part for Doom constant rejection) but that "he needed them in certain point to tell his history" so he just jumped to conclusions, his words were something like "yes Kristoff tried, Kristoff failed but they are now over it".

I personally don't have problems with Doom slapping Kristoff around, never imagined other conclusion for that arc. After all Kristoff was a 12-14 years old kid with limited resources and Doom had several "power ups" by then, but I think that it would have been a wonderful history to see, showing a more human Doom, being forgiving for once (after all he is not someone who took betrays so easily) and maybe a bit parental, since after that point Kristoff starts calling him "father" not longer master, a little but significant change. I would have loved to see the change from guardian to parent on Doom.

You'd think he would be involved in some of the Cassie stuff too. Her death and her return should have at least warranted a panel or two somewhere.

Yes, after all they were good friends and she was his first crush. I also found funny that of all his numerous sins, when Doom gets a change to fix one he specifically returns Cassi to live. I wonder if perhaps Kristoff freaking out had something to do with that decision, but maybe is too much to ask for.

I would like to know Kristoff's reaction to not even being revived by Doom during Secret Wars II.

Well I think that must have been a crushing one. As I said Doom living with Susan Storm (even if is not 616) and raising Valeria and Franklin as his, but not looking for or reviving any version of Kristoff make him look as a terrible parent. He had that child who loves him and helped him to survive (he fought against the mapmakers and was helping Doom in Avengers), but he doesn't care about him at all, so instead of regarding his love and loyalty, he goes for a new family and forgets all about him. That's kind of sad and could easily explain why we haven't seen much of him since those days portraying it as the straw that broke the camel's back and made Kristoff take his distance. Even could have made Infamous Iron man a bit more bearable since explains why Kristoff wasn't available for the spot he was all his life trained to took.

I think he can also act as a great foe for Marvel's younger heroes such as the Champions. I always imagined him having a personality similar to David Xanatos from the 90's Gargoyles cartoon. He's not evil per-say, but will do whatever he has to get what he wants.

I also don't get Kristoff as "evil" just as someone who was raised in a very particular environment and developed very particular mindset.

He can pass as a "mean" but looking closely he cares about others and isn't mean for sheer cruelty, but mostly for lack of understanding about how his behaviour affects others. I remember that his interactions with Scott Lang were hilarious IMO because as much as he berated him, Kristoff also made a new suit for him as a gift and even "took in consideration his incompetence" (so... sweet?). I mean he cared for him at some extent and that makes even sadder that Kristoff never got a single panel in all the Cassie stuff.

Another missing opportunity would have been seeing him in the "latverian school of science" interacting with other guys around his age for a change.

[nj06]

All great points regarding Kristoff. I also wanted to see him involved in some way with the Latverian School of Science. His skill in magic as well as his access to various science/tech allow him to be involved in a ton of potential story-lines. Not to mention he is the Prince of Latveria which adds some nice political drama to the mix.

[Coatl]

Well I found the interview after all

Q&A with Jonathan Hickman, about Kristoff Vernard and his recent continuity.

ComicsAlliance: This issue saw the full reintroduction of Kristoff Vernard, Doom's adopted son, into the title. We last saw him in Christos Gage and Mario Alberti's "Spider-Man/Fantastic Four" miniseries, where his time living with the Richards family was revisited, and at the end, he swore he'd destroy Doctor Doom. Here, in the second issue of FF, he's rocking the new Mario Alberti armor from that miniseries, but he's practically fawning over his adoptive father. Is this simply a case where a different take on the character was needed for a different story, did something happen to re-ignite his faith in Doom, or is there another explanation that understandably you might not want to go into?

Jonathan Hickman: Several things at play here, but, I think, one satisfying conclusion.
First off, let me say that this is not a situation where I didn't read the series in question. In fact, unless something has changed, you can see a pull quote by me on the cover of the collected version of said series. I not only highly recommend it, but think it's a perfect example of Marvel comics DONE RIGHT (And, as an aside, I'd also recommend Chris and Mario's X-Men/Spider-man).
Saying that...
There is a certain place we need to be with both Doom and Kristoff, and we need to be there within a limited window of time. So, given that, I really only have a few options:

1. Disrespect the other creative team and ignore what they have done completely.

2. Feign respecting what they have done by jamming a quick resolution into the book. However, I would argue that this is actually more disrespectful because it's not just diminishing or whitewashing the previous work, but also cheating the readers out of a satisfying experience.

3. Imply that time has passed, something has changed, and hint at the possibility of more story.

Given those choices I'll almost always pick option three.
That means when Doom says in Fantastic Four #583, "I have left myself with no other moves. Summon Kristoff Vernard from exile." I'm telling the reader that there is more there, and, when it's time to tell the Kristoff story, I have the opportunity to play with not just the now, and where he's going, but also something in the near past that everyone will remember.
So, sorry for the long 'craft' answer, and to answer your original question pointedly:
Yes, he tried to destroy Doctor Doom.
He failed.

All great points regarding Kristoff. I also wanted to see him involved in some way with the Latverian School of Science. His skill in magic as well as his access to various science/tech allow him to be involved in a ton of potential story-lines. Not to mention he is the Prince of Latveria which adds some nice political drama to the mix.

Yes the political card would also be fun to see, come on, he is/or used to be, "the teen prince and only heir of a exotic and stable reign" I didn't wonder if some domboot in the academy were assigned just to scare away posible "gold diggers wanting to become princess and cause trouble with the succession".

[ImperiusWrecked]

Given those choices I'll almost always pick option three.
That means when Doom says in Fantastic Four #583, "I have left myself with no other moves. Summon Kristoff Vernard from exile." I'm telling the reader that there is more there, and, when it's time to tell the Kristoff story, I have the opportunity to play with not just the now, and where he's going, but also something in the near past that everyone will remember.
So, sorry for the long 'craft' answer, and to answer your original question pointedly:
Yes, he tried to destroy Doctor Doom.
He failed.


Yes the political card would also be fun to see, come on, he is/or used to be, "the teen prince and only heir of a exotic and stable reign" I didn't wonder if some domboot in the academy were assigned just to scare away posible "gold diggers wanting to become princess and cause trouble with the succession".

I recently read She-Hulk where Kristoff appears in issues 2-4 and wanted to get away from Latveria, it ends with Doctor Doom being willing to hear him out, maybe his exile was referring to him letting Kristoff go to U.S. and cut himself off from Latveria as a self-exile? Doom would certainly see Kristoff being in the U.S. as an exile. I love the character but really just am wondering when will he show up again? It's been years.

[Coatl]

I recently read She-Hulk where Kristoff appears in issues 2-4 and wanted to get away from Latveria, it ends with Doctor Doom being willing to hear him out, maybe his exile was referring to him letting Kristoff go to U.S. and cut himself off from Latveria as a self-exile? Doom would certainly see Kristoff being in the U.S. as an exile. I love the character but really just am wondering when will he show up again? It's been years.

Yes I remember that issue, but I think is chronologically placed after Hickman run not before.

I have to say that I remember that issue with mixed feelings, one hand it was fun to read, and it kind of nailed the “I’m not aware that I’m being rude” behavior of Kristoff, but IMO it feel that all the characters behaviour were barely recognisable.

Doom suddenly all parental while if something he is detached and cold against Kristoff, Kristoff acting as spoiled Eurotrash unable to even run himself and needing being carried away by she-hulk, Jennifer regarding Kristoff as a jerk and helping just for the money also acting as she never had seen him before when she actually knew him since he was 8. Kristoff hitting on her, (please there are like 15 years of difference) and again I'm against portraying Kristoff as an adult when he was originally just barely older than Franklin Richards. But most important, Kristoff rejection of what until that point has been the core of his personality, pleasing Doom and ruling Latveria, feels odd. I felt as I were reading a fanfic were everybody was OC for the sake of the history.

At the end at least made clear that Kristoff didn’t wanted to leave, just to be granted more freedom.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Yes I remember that issue, but I think is chronologically placed after Hickman run not before.

I have to say that I remember that issue with mixed feelings, one hand it was fun to read, and it kind of nailed the “I’m not aware that I’m being rude” behavior of Kristoff, but IMO it feel that all the characters behaviour were barely recognisable.

Doom suddenly all parental while if something he is detached and cold against Kristoff, Kristoff acting as spoiled Eurotrash unable to even run himself and needing being carried away by she-hulk, Jennifer regarding Kristoff as a jerk and helping just for the money also acting as she never had seen him before when she actually knew him since he was 8. Kristoff hitting on her, (please there are like 15 years of difference) and again I'm against portraying Kristoff as an adult when he was originally just barely older than Franklin Richards. But most important, Kristoff rejection of what until that point has been the core of his personality, pleasing Doom and ruling Latveria, feels odd. I felt as I were reading a fanfic were everybody was OC for the sake of the history.

At the end at least made clear that Kristoff didn’t wanted to leave, just to be granted more freedom.

How old is Kristoff supposed to be anyway? Marvel's sliding timeline always gives me a headache when it comes to ages, I think Doom is like 35-40 ish?

[Iron Maiden]

How old is Kristoff supposed to be anyway? Marvel's sliding timeline always gives me a headache when it comes to ages, I think Doom is like 35-40 ish?

I love all this discussion about Kristoff, too. Been a bit busy lately and I see I have some catching up to do!

I think you are in the right ballpark with Doom, Reed and Ben but IMO you have to bump them up a bit more. I'd just say past 40 and leave it at that .... or just early 40s. Now when it comes to Kristoff and Franklin, that gets very inconsistent. When we first see Kristoff in FF#247, he seems to be a small child, perhaps 5? I'm using his height compared to adults as a guide to make my "guesstimate". He appears to be about the same size as how Franklin was being drawn during Byrne's run. But over the years, the gap seemed to widen unti you get him at near adulthood both in the She Hulk series and in Hickman's Fantastic Four and in New Avengers.




I can't remember where I got this but I found this character design by artist Valerio Schiti on my PC. The gap between his age and Franklin's appears to have gotten more pronounced. It looks like Slott is correcting that because now both Franklin and Valeria have aged up since they've returned. I keep hoping that Kristoff would show up in this arc but I think I'm going to be disappointed in that. Maybe we should start a letter writing campaign! Or you can add your opinion to the comic if you use the free digital code at Marvel. BTW, Did they change the name of this thread? I liked Reviresco's "All Hope Lies in Doom"

[CaptCleghorn]

I love all this discussion about Kristoff, too. Been a bit busy lately and I see I have some catching up to do!

I think you are in the right ballpark with Doom, Reed and Ben but IMO you have to bump them up a bit more. I'd just say past 40 and leave it at that .... or just early 40s. Now when it comes to Kristoff and Franklin, that gets very inconsistent. When we first see Kristoff in FF#247, he seems to be a small child, perhaps 5? I'm using his height compared to adults as a guide to make my "guesstimate". He appears to be about the same size as how Franklin was being drawn during Byrne's run. But over the years, the gap seemed to widen unti you get him at near adulthood both in the She Hulk series and in Hickman's Fantastic Four and in New Avengers.

Kristoff. The cynic in me sees him as a way for Victor to show himself better than Reed. Other parts of me see the Victor/Kristoff relationship as a true father/son relationship. I want to see this grow as more than ust another reed/Victor comparison. Kristoff is a character in his own right and needs to be shown as a would-be aristocrat with assholian tendencies, but also a normal kid who's been dumped into a situation that's "unusual".

One of Doom's problems is his rotating cast of close acquaintances. I think he would not so easily abandon those he cares about. And YES, that's a short list. Kristoff should be on it.

[nj06]

I love all this discussion about Kristoff, too. Been a bit busy lately and I see I have some catching up to do!

I think you are in the right ballpark with Doom, Reed and Ben but IMO you have to bump them up a bit more. I'd just say past 40 and leave it at that .... or just early 40s. Now when it comes to Kristoff and Franklin, that gets very inconsistent. When we first see Kristoff in FF#247, he seems to be a small child, perhaps 5? I'm using his height compared to adults as a guide to make my "guesstimate". He appears to be about the same size as how Franklin was being drawn during Byrne's run. But over the years, the gap seemed to widen unti you get him at near adulthood both in the She Hulk series and in Hickman's Fantastic Four and in New Avengers.




I can't remember where I got this but I sound this character design by artist Valerio Schiti on my PC. The gap between his age and Franklin's appears to have gotten more pronounced. It looks like Slott is correcting that because now both Franklin and Valeria have aged up since they've returned. I keep hoping that Kristoff would show up in this arc but I think I'm going to be disappointed in that. Maybe we should start a letter writing campaign! Or you can add your opinion to the comic if you use the free digital code at Marvel. BTW, Did they change the name of this thread? I liked Reviresco's "All Hope Lies in Doom"

Good info on Kristoff! I feel like Marvel has always seemed to be very fluid when it comes to the ages of their younger characters. After all X-23 was only about 13 when she first appeared and now she is being portrayed as closer to 18. Meanwhile Jubilee has been aged 16-19 for over 20 years. I think Miles Morales also received an age boost as well. For me I think Kristoff works best being in his late teens (18/19).