Victor Von Doom: Doctor Doom Appreciation 2019

[Iron Maiden]

Yes, I think Kristoff works best in that age range also. And now I must thank Coatl for finding that Hickman interview where he discussed Kristoff. I can't believe it has been almost 10 years since I attended Chicago's comic con known as C2E2 and Hickman was at the beginning of his Fantastic Four run. I got to talk to him a bit about the upcoming issues that featureed a flashback adventure to Reed, Ben and Victor's college days. And he brought back the character of Nathaniel Richards. He probably had it planned already but I remember saying to him it was great seeing the Bryne characters showing up and would like to see Kristoff again someday.

Kristoff. The cynic in me sees him as a way for Victor to show himself better than Reed. Other parts of me see the Victor/Kristoff relationship as a true father/son relationship. I want to see this grow as more than just another reed/Victor comparison. Kristoff is a character in his own right and needs to be shown as a would-be aristocrat with assholian tendencies, but also a normal kid who's been dumped into a situation that's "unusual".

One of Doom's problems is his rotating cast of close acquaintances. I think he would not so easily abandon those he cares about. And YES, that's a short list. Kristoff should be on it.

Totally in agreement here. Byrne did show us the ups and downs of being Doom's ward and how quick Doom was to anger when his ego was offended. But it was was undoubtedly written into the Doom/Kristoff relationship that there a genuine concern/affection for the welfare of the orphaned boy, whose fate probably reminded him of the loss of his own mother. We never did find out the fate of Kristoff's father nor even his identity. I hated that later on Tom DeFalco implied that Kristoff was the result of a tryst between a time traveling Nathaniel and Mme. Venard. Ugh!

[CaptCleghorn]

Totally in agreement here. Byrne did show us the ups and downs of being Doom's ward and how quick Doom was to anger when his ego was offended. But it was was undoubtedly written into the Doom/Kristoff relationship that there a genuine concern/affection for the welfare of the orphaned boy, whose fate probably reminded him of the loss of his own mother. We never did find out the fate of Kristoff's father nor even his identity. I hated that later on Tom DeFalco implied that a Kristoff was the result of a tryst between a time traveling Nathaniel and Mme. Venard. Ugh!

I agree there are many ups and downs to Kristoff's relationship with Doom. being lucky enough to grow up in a two parent household and to raise my son in one as well, the different life aspects one picks up from each parent (and close acquaintances as well) is both extraordinary and telling. If we look at Franklin and Valeria, they get their scientific curiouslity and reasoning from Reed and their kindness and fun from Sue. It's pretty obvious who pays attention to whom more, but both kids have learned from each parent.

But as for Kristoff, Doom will teach him honor and behavior as befits a man of his stature. Caring for the downtrodden of Latveria may be on the list as well, but I doubt he's grooming Kristoff for an overseas mercy trip. I don't think Doom would raise Kristoff as an evil mini-me, but as someone who deserves what he gets. I also expect a work ethic to be in there somewhere as well.

I still want the Chris Eliopoulos written love of olive loaf to be canon though. The common man flaw in his aristocratic perfection.

[Coatl]

How old is Kristoff supposed to be anyway?

IMO around 17

I think you are in the right ballpark with Doom, Reed and Ben but IMO you have to bump them up a bit more. I'd just say past 40 and leave it at that .... or just early 40s. Now when it comes to Kristoff and Franklin, that gets very inconsistent. When we first see Kristoff in FF#247, he seems to be a small child, perhaps 5? I'm using his height compared to adults as a guide to make my "guesstimate". He appears to be about the same size as how Franklin was being drawn during Byrne's run. But over the years, the gap seemed to widen unti you get him at near adulthood both in the She Hulk series and in Hickman's Fantastic Four and in New Avengers.

I think more or less the same, Reed, Ben and Doom should be past 40s since has been like 20 years after they finished the university, Johnny maybe is on his last 20s and perhaps Susan on his last 30s.

Back to Kristoff, my head canon is that he was adopted at 5-6 years lived a couple years with Doom and then happened the brainwash incident at 7-8, to complement the wonderful information that you provided let me add to the fact that Kristoff is regarded as being originally "few years older than Franklin"

Attachment 79298

And there is this page when he makes his first magical grow up and suddenly becomes a 12 years old while Franklin remain the same.

RCO002_1469201246.jpg

My idea of Kristoff being around 17 comes from this days. When he was shipped with Cass Lang and the age gap was stated to be just a year. Since she was labeled at 16 at the moment of her resurrection, I think that he should still be a year older making him 17.

I keep hoping that Kristoff would show up in this arc but I think I'm going to be disappointed in that. Maybe we should start a letter writing campaign!

Yes, don't seems that he will get a participation soon. Perhaps we should opt for the letter, our demands are fair, we don't want him getting his own run, but at least, acknowledge his existence people.

Kristoff. The cynic in me sees him as a way for Victor to show himself better than Reed. Other parts of me see the Victor/Kristoff relationship as a true father/son relationship. I want to see this grow as more than just another reed/Victor comparison. Kristoff is a character in his own right and needs to be shown as a would-be aristocrat with assholian tendencies, but also a normal kid who's been dumped into a situation that's "unusual".

I think that part of his tragedy comes from Doom need to show off and inability to accept imperfection. Kristoff was more or less happy the first years, but after the brainwashing incident, Doom becomes much more cold and distant and sometimes plainly cruel (he got Kristoff dead/in comma in one of his schemes against Richard). My head cannon is that Doom being a perfectionist can't accept that failed as a parent (getting the boy he was supposed to protect badly hurt) and instead of just accepting his guilt and try to become a better parent, he got enraged about being unable to top Richards. Richards is actually a flawed but more or less effective parent who despite his mistakes and ignorance kept trying.

So Doom try to regard Kristoff as a failed experiment and pretends to use Valeria to show his "superiority", what better way to show that Reed is a second rate paret that getting the love of her own daughter? What he can't see is that even whe Valeria loves him, he is still a kind of "cool uncle" nor a parent, while Kristoff is his actual son and still in need of guidance, so in his pursuit of show off against Reed he is neglecting his own son.

That makes still more frustrating the whole Secret wars issue. Because just when I thought that Doom was about to make a real effort to rise and guide Kristoff, the boy gets dropped again in order to take care of the Richards family.

[CaptCleghorn]

That makes still more frustrating the whole Secret wars issue. Because just when I thought that Doom was about to make a real effort to rise and guide Kristoff, the boy gets dropped again in order to take care of the Richards family.

I've commented about this in the FF and SW threads. It's my belief that Doom chose a Sue as a consort because in universes where Reeds have gone bad, those Reeds usually did not have a Susan as support. The conclusion would be that Sue is a necessary component to the successful scientist. This seemed like a much less basic motive than having Sue as a prize. But it's my speculation. I think it's a good conjecture, but there is no canonical support.

There was also added disappointment without the original Valeria being used as consort. That would have gone a long way towards erasing the "controversial" story Unthinkable. Valeria and Kristoff would have been, hopefully, Doom's emotional choices. However it seems logic dictated using Reed's family.

[Abe]

Hi, beautiful people of Latveria!

Just passing by to say that I enjoy the current discussions - and I'm learning a lot about Kristoff, which is cool.

Nevertheless I'm not really in the mood for posting nowadays anyway, and I must confess that I have nothing interesting to add to the thread. Of course the fact that I'm quite bored by the current FF book doesn't help much.

Even if it gets better I still don't feel much about the art - and regret the first issues... About the story I usually don't dislike Slott's works, and I also still wait to see where the current arc is leading us, but I don't feel engage at all in the story. I can't help it. (Ieven fear that the war if the realms tie-in and the loss of Ribic as cover artist could let me put the book out of my pull-list ant trade wait maybe...)

Last but not least, I absolutely loved the tittle if the thread when Reviresvo restarted it. It was absolutely perfect!!! So I'm kinda disappointed by what happened yesterday I think... Not posting but still lurking, and now the forum is a bit less appealing...

[CaptCleghorn]

Hi, beautiful people of Latveria!

Just passing by to say that I enjoy the current discussions - and I'm learning a lot about Kristoff, which is cool.

Nevertheless I'm not really in the mood for posting nowadays anyway, and I must confess that I have nothing interesting to add to the thread. Of course the fact that I'm quite bored by the current FF book doesn't help much.

Even if it gets better I still don't feel much about the art - and regret the first issues... About the story I usually don't dislike Slott's works, and I also still wait to see where the current arc is leading us, but I don't feel engage at all in the story. I can't help it. (Ieven fear that the war if the realms tie-in and the loss of Ribic as cover artist could let me put the book out of my pull-list ant trade wait maybe...)

Last but not least, I absolutely loved the tittle if the thread when Reviresvo restarted it. It was absolutely perfect!!! So I'm kinda disappointed by what happened yesterday I think... Not posting but still lurking, and now the forum is a bit less appealing...

I am sorry some of the joy has gone out of the hobby for you, Abe. I'm sure you're well aware that there is decent conversation on both sides regarding the latest FF arc. You often find a certain angle or point to make and I hope you return sooner rather than later.

[SuperiorIronman]

If anything I learned about Slott's work is that he's a great ideas guy, it's just that the execution doesn't work. If I had any way of describing it, when he's at his best he's making "candy". It's not especially good or good for you but it gets the job done. But following that binge you just can't help but wonder why you did any of that. And to that end you start to realize that it's not especially good candy either.

The current arc with Doom and Galactus seems to be shaping up like that kind of like what went on during Spiderverse. Interesting concept, but the execution is so much that you can break the logic of the villain's plan by blowing on it.

[CaptCleghorn]

So, I picked up the Ziggy Pig / Silly Seal special with the FF variant cover yesterday. "One does not unfriend Doom."

I loved it and will gladly take the slings and arrows from those unappreciative of satire of Victor.

[nj06]

IMO around 17



I think more or less the same, Reed, Ben and Doom should be past 40s since has been like 20 years after they finished the university, Johnny maybe is on his last 20s and perhaps Susan on his last 30s.

Back to Kristoff, my head canon is that he was adopted at 5-6 years lived a couple years with Doom and then happened the brainwash incident at 7-8, to complement the wonderful information that you provided let me add to the fact that Kristoff is regarded as being originally "few years older than Franklin"

Attachment 79298

And there is this page when he makes his first magical grow up and suddenly becomes a 12 years old while Franklin remain the same.

RCO002_1469201246.jpg

My idea of Kristoff being around 17 comes from this days. When he was shipped with Cass Lang and the age gap was stated to be just a year. Since she was labeled at 16 at the moment of her resurrection, I think that he should still be a year older making him 17.



Yes, don't seems that he will get a participation soon. Perhaps we should opt for the letter, our demands are fair, we don't want him getting his own run, but at least, acknowledge his existence people.



I think that part of his tragedy comes from Doom need to show off and inability to accept imperfection. Kristoff was more or less happy the first years, but after the brainwashing incident, Doom becomes much more cold and distant and sometimes plainly cruel (he got Kristoff dead/in comma in one of his schemes against Richard). My head cannon is that Doom being a perfectionist can't accept that failed as a parent (getting the boy he was supposed to protect badly hurt) and instead of just accepting his guilt and try to become a better parent, he got enraged about being unable to top Richards. Richards is actually a flawed but more or less effective parent who despite his mistakes and ignorance kept trying.

So Doom try to regard Kristoff as a failed experiment and pretends to use Valeria to show his "superiority", what better way to show that Reed is a second rate paret that getting the love of her own daughter? What he can't see is that even whe Valeria loves him, he is still a kind of "cool uncle" nor a parent, while Kristoff is his actual son and still in need of guidance, so in his pursuit of show off against Reed he is neglecting his own son.

That makes still more frustrating the whole Secret wars issue. Because just when I thought that Doom was about to make a real effort to rise and guide Kristoff, the boy gets dropped again in order to take care of the Richards family.

All great ideas. The Doom and Kristoff relationship is ripe with story-line/plot potential and I hope Marvel taps into it sooner rather than later. I really would like to know how Kristoff feels about not being resurrected during Secret Wars.

[nj06]

What type of armor should Kristoff have? I would like a more contemporary version of the "Doom" look. I would keep a similar face-mask and hood. I would also keep the green theme. I don't know if would keep the cape though. I'd also like to stream-line the armor a little and make it appear least bulky. I'd want it to be more like Black Panther's armor: light weight and more suited for speed and agility without compromising durability.

[K7P5V]

What type of armor should Kristoff have? I would like a more contemporary version of the "Doom" look. I would keep a similar face-mask and hood. I would also keep the green theme. I don't know if would keep the cape though. I'd also like to stream-line the armor a little and make it appear least bulky. I'd want it to be more like Black Panther's armor: light weight and more suited for speed and agility without compromising durability.

Agreed. Kristoff would look swell in an updated version of the armor from Doom 2099.

[SuperiorIronman]

What type of armor should Kristoff have? I would like a more contemporary version of the "Doom" look. I would keep a similar face-mask and hood. I would also keep the green theme. I don't know if would keep the cape though. I'd also like to stream-line the armor a little and make it appear least bulky. I'd want it to be more like Black Panther's armor: light weight and more suited for speed and agility without compromising durability.

If it was up to me I would go with a mask more similar to Doom's own Infamous Iron man helmet. As for the armor, I envision it something more like the suits from the Crysis games where the suit is built to be like human muscle. Not just sculpted but functional to assist the user. To that end the upper portion of the suit from the helmet to the chest is built to be the most armored part about it. As a prince he must occupy a variety of roles and so his day to day outfits would be what he wears above that. Kind of like how Doom's tunic changes but we know the armor itself is the important bit. Kristoff's tunic is basically whatever he needs that day from Doom-like tunic to something more elegant.

Although I'd give him gloves like Doom had as God Emperor because I like the idea that he's built like a tank but has very nice velvet gloves.

[Coatl]

I've commented about this in the FF and SW threads. It's my belief that Doom chose a Sue as a consort because in universes where Reeds have gone bad, those Reeds usually did not have a Susan as support. The conclusion would be that Sue is a necessary component to the successful scientist. This seemed like a much less basic motive than having Sue as a prize. But it's my speculation. I think it's a good conjecture, but there is no canonical support.

That would be an explanation, while still feeling a bit odd that he wanted to have Reed wifes, at least give it some excuse for the selection (even if Doom accepting that he "needs" support is a bit strange), what it doesn't excuse is a) creating exactly the same childs for the marriage that Susan had with Reed, that's genetically impossible so Victor had to have caused it, and b) not resurrecting Kristoff.

There was also added disappointment without the original Valeria being used as consort. That would have gone a long way towards erasing the "controversial" story Unthinkable. Valeria and Kristoff would have been, hopefully, Doom's emotional choices. However it seems logic dictated using Reed's family.

Yes I think that accepting the previous part would kind of explain it at some extent. Victor thinks he "needs" Susan (if he or not, and is using it as excuse it's not clear) but deep inside maybe he would have prefered get Valeria back.

I remember the universe of House of M, while Victor is granted his deepest wish for Wanda, he gets to be the king of Latveria, being married with Valeria and had Kristoff as son(who becomes Kristoff Von Doom, not Vernard anymore and was like 12-14) becoming a twisted version of the FF, also his mother was alive. Of course VÃ*ctor ego got all screwed in record time but was touching seeing everybody so happy for a while. I think that since Wanda was using Xavier powers to read the bare minds of the people instead of their self delusions, that was a genuine desire in Victor heart.

What type of armor should Kristoff have? I would like a more contemporary version of the "Doom" look. I would keep a similar face-mask and hood. I would also keep the green theme. I don't know if would keep the cape though. I'd also like to stream-line the armor a little and make it appear least bulky. I'd want it to be more like Black Panther's armor: light weight and more suited for speed and agility without compromising durability.

That's a very interesting issue, maybe he should had several suits ala Tony Stark for diversity of activities. I think that since he is more combat focused than Doom, his main armor should get him more range of movement so being a little less medieval knight and more tactical suit. Maybe a slightly more stiliced mask to make a clear difference between Dooms and kept the green color with some touches of red who seems to be the color related to Kristoff in the Avengers run.

[CaptCleghorn]

What would Kristoff wear? I'm not so sure he should be inclined to want a suit of armor. As Doom's kid, he has three basic paths. First, he can follow in his father's footsteps in which case he'd wear Doom's current armor. But with Doom still alive and kicking that seems unlikely except for maybe a story arc. Second, he can assume he's youth and can do the job better than Vic did. This seems much more likely and Kristoff would use what makes him different than Vic thinking that difference makes him better. In this case, Kristoff would be likely to show his unscarred face, perhaps going with a thin armor or even a body form force field. Or he could go off ina different direction altogether in which case the armor seems like a possible tool, but far from his primary attribute.

I'd like to see Kristoff as a Machiavellian prince character, working behind the scenes, making treaties and gaining allies. He'd consolidate power for when he needs it. To quote a movie "Someday, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me." He'd scheme quietly. But that's my take on him.

[Coatl]

What would Kristoff wear? I'm not so sure he should be inclined to want a suit of armor. As Doom's kid, he has three basic paths. First, he can follow in his father's footsteps in which case he'd wear Doom's current armor. But with Doom still alive and kicking that seems unlikely except for maybe a story arc. Second, he can assume he's youth and can do the job better than Vic did. This seems much more likely and Kristoff would use what makes him different than Vic thinking that difference makes him better. In this case, Kristoff would be likely to show his unscarred face, perhaps going with a thin armor or even a body form force field. Or he could go off ina different direction altogether in which case the armor seems like a possible tool, but far from his primary attribute.

He already tried with his own custom armor who was augmented with magic and he claimed it to be superior to the conventional Doom armor, but we have seen so little of him since those days that I don't know if he still has it, of if what he claimed was true (again he was barely a teen and not in his right mind back then) I think that between that and his times as a Doom impersonator he had already enough of bulky armors. I think that he has enough respect for the armors as a symbol but he would like one slightly different by himself.

The thin armor/force field option sounds more fun to me, also showing his face, if he is not longer trying to make himself pass as Doom, uncover his face has senese, and a magical/technological force field should be a good chance to prove his technical magical skills.

I'd like to see Kristoff as a Machiavellian prince character, working behind the scenes, making treaties and gaining allies. He'd consolidate power for when he needs it. To quote a movie "Someday, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me." He'd scheme quietly. But that's my take on him.

Yes I think that is a shame that a teen with Doom skills hasn't yet being presented as an intelligent strategist, consolidating his own power, because I really would want to see him doing that. I mean what the hell has been doing that kid all this years? He already had a university degree knowledge at 8, so he doesn't need more education in the regular sense. My only response it's that he was training in other fields.

So, I want him to show off in those fields, technology (alien technology) magic, leadership, politics. Let's make him get his own friends/servants!

I also would like to see him interacting with Valeria a bit, she has get a far better treatment from Doom, and I would like to see what Kristoff thinks of it. He never seemed to me the kind of person to hold a grudge against a 3 years old girl, but also I can't believe that seeing Doom trying to be better person for his granddaughter sake and being far kinder and patient (even expending more time with her) in ways never was with him, doesn't bugs him a bit. Hell, then it is the fact that spent the las 7-8 years raising her and Franklin while Kristoff was dead/forgotten.

Even with the best intentions on mind, that should have hurt him.