Victor Von Doom: Doctor Doom Appreciation 2019

[Iron Maiden]

The kids ages in this franchise are easily their weakest point. How old are Kristoff, Franklin, and Valeria this year and in this title? Who the f*** knows?

Kristoff can certainly be a minor in his early teens. Doom raising him as old school European monarchy style assumes that a youth could inherit and be at the seat of power. Get an age and have an editor at Marvel nail it down. From there other stuff can flow.

Is he 14? make him emotionally 14. Is he 17? make him emotionally 17. As far as being super-intelligent and plotting those differences aren't going to matter. As far as how he reacts to a potential lover and his feelings for them, then his age makes a difference.

Marvel needs an executive editor in charge of approving kid characters' birthdays.

Or at least provide artists and writers with a character guide if they plan to use them. I suppose it's early enough to use google but that can also lead you to a lot of misinformation too. Tom Brevoort is usually the go to guy for questions but sometimes I think he drops the ball himself.

Charles Soule clearly saw Kristoff as an adult but then I can see bars in Madripoor (I think that's where this scene takes place) not being big on age checks.

[Coatl]

The issue about Kristoff's age reminds me of something that was teased but AFAIK never developed. Having added him for his first arc in She Hulk, Charles Soule had made some statements at the time that he wanted to use Kristoff in some of his titles. This is from the Director's Cut of one of the early issue of the Death of Wolverine series. I had posted these in the closed thread so might as well add them here. I wish someone would take some interest in the character some day.

Hey, thanks for the pictures, I have seen it somewhere but couldn’t remember exactly where. I also wish that someone get interest in the character too, but also have stated that the “eurotrash and party guy” version of Kristoff sounds too alien to me.

As far as I have seen Kristoff as a boy was pretty serious and responsible (that’s why I loved his friendship with the carefree Cassie Lang), also I see Doom as a very perfectionist person, and even when he is not very present in Kristof live, he should have arranged the best education to him, no letting him just slack off, get drunk and make scandals who could compromise his reputation. Just doesn’t feels as something that Kristoff would do or Doom would allow. We are talking about a boy who at 12 admitted that he never learned to play because his mother was too poor to allow him toys and Doom is against such frivolities.

Charles Soule clearly saw Kristoff as an adult but then I can see bars in Madripoor (I think that's where this scene takes place) not being big on age checks.

Yes, I already had stated why I think that Kristoff should be represented as a Young in his last teens, but also I’m pretty sure that this scene is supposed to be in Madripoor, and that place isn’t famous for his adherence to the american rules or any rules. Basically if anyone with enough money or power ask for something, he can get it, and being son of Doom he has both so get a drink shouldn’t be a problem he also has been portrayed drinking since he was even younger.

About the age of the kids, what a mess!, Franklin age is a joke, he has been around 10 like 20 years, Valeria never looked or acted as the 3 years old she was supposed to be, she always looked and acted as a teen, Bentley was supposed to be a teen but also was shipped with Valeria, even Johnny has been stuck in the irresponsible teen/early 20's for decades.

[U.N. Owen]

Do what everyone else does to justify weird ages: blame Franklin. It's mind boggling to see the age gap between him and Kristoff grow bigger and then suddenly shrink.

[CaptCleghorn]

Age doesn't matter as much unless the characters are supposedly romantically involved. At the age range we're talking there would be a huge creepiness factor I doubt Marvel (and most of us) would want to deal with. Post SW and after all the aging hub bub with the Richards family and the reconstruction of reality with its easy out of redoing a few details, ages could very well be reasonably locked in.

And Kristoff needs to be an older teen, but still a minor. Yes, it's a Victor/Reed analogy, but it's a different field of battle than "who's smarterer?"

[Iron Maiden]

Hey, thanks for the pictures, I have seen it somewhere but couldn’t remember exactly where. I also wish that someone get interest in the character too, but also have stated that the “eurotrash and party guy” version of Kristoff sounds too alien to me.

As far as I have seen Kristoff as a boy was pretty serious and responsible (that’s why I loved his friendship with the carefree Cassie Lang), also I see Doom as a very perfectionist person, and even when he is not very present in Kristof live, he should have arranged the best education to him, no letting him just slack off, get drunk and make scandals who could compromise his reputation. Just doesn’t feels as something that Kristoff would do or Doom would allow. We are talking about a boy who at 12 admitted that he never learned to play because his mother was too poor to allow him toys and Doom is against such frivolities.



Yes, I already had stated why I think that Kristoff should be represented as a Young in his last teens, but also I’m pretty sure that this scene is supposed to be in Madripoor, and that place isn’t famous for his adherence to the american rules or any rules. Basically if anyone with enough money or power ask for something, he can get it, and being son of Doom he has both so get a drink shouldn’t be a problem he also has been portrayed drinking since he was even younger.

About the age of the kids, what a mess!, Franklin age is a joke, he has been around 10 like 20 years, Valeria never looked or acted as the 3 years old she was supposed to be, she always looked and acted as a teen, Bentley was supposed to be a teen but also was shipped with Valeria, even Johnny has been stuck in the irresponsible teen/early 20's for decades.

With Bentley, at least he has a bit of an excuse since he is a clone. I know in real world experiments with cloning mammals, they tended to age quickly. Dolly the sheep developing severe arthritis and died at age 6 when 12 would be the norm for her breed. But I don't think Marvel science would have that problem. Doom's own clone must have developed pretty quickly since he was shown to be an adult.

With Charles Soule's version of Kristoff, I think his idea would have been interesting in some respects. Kristoff does act a bit older for his age but he lacks that maturity that comes mostly through experiencing life's challenges. I wouldn't say he was totally insulating for the usual milestones of growing up but he did have things easier that Victor had in his teen years. He had responsibility thrust upon him at a young age when his father died. The tribe looked to him for leadership. Kristoff did rule Latveria for a while but that was mostly because he thought he was Doom.

[Coatl]

With Bentley, at least he has a bit of an excuse since he is a clone. I know in real world experiments with cloning mammals, they tended to age quickly. Dolly the sheep developing severe arthritis and died at age 6 when 12 would be the norm for her breed. But I don't think Marvel science would have that problem. Doom's own clone must have developed pretty quickly since he was shown to be an adult.

Yes Bentley has a pass over the age issue but still his "relationship" with the supposed 3 years old Valeria sometimes felt a bit odd to me, other hand, since Valeria never has acted as a 3 years I can just ignore it .

With Charles Soule's version of Kristoff, I think his idea would have been interesting in some respects. Kristoff does act a bit older for his age but he lacks that maturity that comes mostly through experiencing life's challenges. I wouldn't say he was totally insulating for the usual milestones of growing up but he did have things easier that Victor had in his teen years. He had responsibility thrust upon him at a young age when his father died. The tribe looked to him for leadership. Kristoff did rule Latveria for a while but that was mostly because he thought he was Doom.

About Victor certainly his teen years were quite difficult (also his childhood) and molded in the power seeker in need of control that he is nowadays. But I don't feel that Kristoff fared much better. While I agree that he hasn't so many responsibilities throw at him, and was pretty shielded in some aspects, making him immature in some ways (as social behaviour), he got screwed in other fields.

I think that after the brainwashing mistake Doom started treating Kristoff more like a minion than like a son exposing him a too much danger (resulting in his death at early age who was changed into a coma but still lasted years) and after his awakening he decided to look after a kidnapped (by Hyperstrom) Doom, fighting along the fantastic four against rebel Watchers, terrorist and stuff. A hard environment for a kid. Just to get abandoned for both sides, and resort in Black magic (something said as a terrible dangerous and who could have killed him), so he spend basically several years of his life training and fighting.

That's why the "eurotrash party guy" (unable to fight for himself) stuff sounds too alien to me, it's like seeing the serious and focused X-23 eager to party and unable to defend herself (but let's not talk about Bendis here), it's just some personality that he never shows before and doesn't seems to have sense IMO.

Yes I found the issue fun in his own way, but as I have previously stated too OC, still maybe with a good explanation it could work.

[Ravin' Ray]

This is partly Kristoff related, but after Picelli did that Fantastic Four reunion spread, I wish someone would do something similar for Doom, with all his minions, allies and others assembled together. Off the top of my head I have:

Dreadknight
Darkoth the Death Demon
Titania
Volcana
Kristoff Vernard
Lancer
Divinity
Shakti
Technarx
Dorma
Victorious

And others I may have overlooked.

[Iron Maiden]

This is partly Kristoff related, but after Picelli did that Fantastic Four reunion spread, I wish someone would do something similar for Doom, with all his minions, allies and others assembled together. Off the top of my head I have:

Dreadknight
Darkoth the Death Demon
Titania
Volcana
Kristoff Vernard
Lancer
Divinity
Shakti
Technarx
Dorma
Victorious

And others I may have overlooked.

That's a good start, Ray! The ones that have stayed loyal to him the longest is the Terrible Trio of Handsome Harry Phillips, Bull Brogin and Yogi Dakor. Their first mission for Doom was in Fantastic Four #23 (1964) and they were still working for him during Civil War #1 in the Penance: Relentless mini from 2007

[Iron Maiden]

Yes Bentley has a pass over the age issue but still his "relationship" with the supposed 3 years old Valeria sometimes felt a bit odd to me, other hand, since Valeria never has acted as a 3 years I can just ignore it .



About Victor certainly his teen years were quite difficult (also his childhood) and molded in the power seeker in need of control that he is nowadays. But I don't feel that Kristoff fared much better. While I agree that he hasn't so many responsibilities throw at him, and was pretty shielded in some aspects, making him immature in some ways (as social behaviour), he got screwed in other fields.

I think that after the brainwashing mistake Doom started treating Kristoff more like a minion than like a son exposing him a too much danger (resulting in his death at early age who was changed into a coma but still lasted years) and after his awakening he decided to look after a kidnapped (by Hyperstrom) Doom, fighting along the fantastic four against rebel Watchers, terrorist and stuff. A hard environment for a kid. Just to get abandoned for both sides, and resort in Black magic (something said as a terrible dangerous and who could have killed him), so he spend basically several years of his life training and fighting.

That's why the "eurotrash party guy" (unable to fight for himself) stuff sounds too alien to me, it's like seeing the serious and focused X-23 eager to party and unable to defend herself (but let's not talk about Bendis here), it's just some personality that he never shows before and doesn't seems to have sense IMO.

Yes I found the issue fun in his own way, but as I have previously stated too OC, still maybe with a good explanation it could work.

I wouldn't call the "eurotrash party guy" that Soule was using exactly powerless had he gone on with the idea in the Death of Wolverine. He was carrying a gun in that scene in the bar in Madripoor. But I do think Doom needs to take more interest in instructing him. Doom is pretty much self-taught. We never saw any extended scenes of doing any training yet he can slug it out with the Thing and he was able to kill a lion while naked.

I'm glad you mentioned the time when Kristoff was subjected to the Remembrancer in Byrne's run. Byrne has written on his blog/MB Byrne Robotics that the Doombots went far beyond what Doom had intended. It wasn't supposed to be used to take over Kristoff. But since Byrne left Marvel not too long after that we don't know what his follow up would have been. But I never liked the way they interacted after Byrne left. Englehart left him in "Mini Doom" mode during his run but then Walt Simonson finally had him "cured" by Doom. In fact Simonson strongly hints that Doom was probably a Doombot during Englehart's run. But right after Simonson left the Fantastic Four, Tom DeFalco took over and wiped all that out. There no longer was any affection for the boy during Tom DeFalco's run. As you say, he was treated as a minion . I'm glad that Hickman changed that as a follow up to the Spider-Man vs The Fantastic Four mini by Christos Gage, which as I recall was just before Hickman's run.

[Iron Maiden]

Since this week's cover of Old Man Quill #3 has Doom on the cover, I picked that up this week and was also able to get issues #1 and #2. Neither of those have Doom on the cover but there are some brief Doom "appearances".

So what happens is that the Guardians go back to a future Earth that was featured in the Old Man Logan arc in Wolverine #66-72 (2008). In this future, the villains were able to eliminate almost all of the heroes and divided the U.S. into territories ruled by various villains. The one "hero" that survived was Bruce Banner, who for reasons I forgotten forced his cousin Jennifer to give birth to a clan known as the Hillbilly Hulks.



Old Man Quill takes place after Old Man Hawkeye and Old Man Logan and apparently the last of the original rulers is Doom. Most of these were killed off in Old Man Logan during fights over territories. The Red Skull ruled over it all, which I didn't care for. For one thing, I couldn't see Doom leaving Latveria behind to rule a territory in the U.S. He also married Emma Frost. But most of all, I never like any story that involves Doom being lead by the Red Skull considering the history of the Romani killed by Hitler's reign over Nazi Germany.



Despite being on the cover of issue #3 doesn't appear in this issue but he does appear on panel in issue #2, along with a Doombot. Doom's new HQ is the former Baxter Building and NYC is now known as New Latveria. With the Red Skull being killed by Logan at the end of Old Man Logan, I assume Doom must have taken over at some point. In Old Man Quill #2, we see him sitting on a throne that is apparently made from the outer skin of the Thing. But IIRC he was already dead in the original Old Man Logan and I don't think we ever saw his fate. Madame Masque does all the talking in this scene while Doom remains mute, which make me think that that possibility that this is another Doombot is very high. Conversely, the Doombot that appears on the street to pass out Doom meals to the hungry people of New Latveria does have a few lines but that's it. Guess I'll check out issue #4 but I really think someone else is pulling the strings with Madame Masque's assistance. Too bad because I think this is the first team-up of Madame Masque with Doom, or most likely a Doombot.

[Doom Answers to No Master]

Has everyone seen the potential good news involving Hawley's solo Doom film? Apparently the other master Kevin Feige talked to Hawley and asked him if he was still working on the Doom script...Hawley replied: "Should I be?"

Finally revealed some plot points and it sounds very promising: "Starts with Doom placing a dome over Latveria and ready to make his presence known to the world, via a reporter who is summoned to Latveria to get the story of a lifetime" Dome aside, sounds like Hawley was going to adapt in some way "Books of Doom".....I really hope Feige makes this for the MCU....

[Iron Maiden]

I haven't watched the shows he 's connected with but from all reports, a lot of their success is due to him. I had posted from an article from Variety a while back about how the Russo brothers are working with Noah Hawley on an FX series called The Mastermind.

With all this involvement, I think it's more than a rumor. The Russo brothers have said they want to bring Doom into the MCU in that podcast with Kevin Smith. I think the odds are very good that Doom will appear in the next phase of the MCU. Probably the Silver Surfer too. From reading that new article, Hawley's script is very much like Books of Doom since the reporter will be a female, just like in the comic. I'd have to think that if they're talking about this out in the open with The Hollywood Reporter, things are getting serious.

[Coatl]

This is partly Kristoff related, but after Picelli did that Fantastic Four reunion spread, I wish someone would do something similar for Doom, with all his minions, allies and others assembled together. Off the top of my head I have:

Dreadknight
Darkoth the Death Demon
Titania
Volcana
Kristoff Vernard
Lancer
Divinity
Shakti
Technarx
Dorma
Victorious

And others I may have overlooked.

I wish to add Boris, old loyal Boris shouldn't be left behind.

But I do think Doom needs to take more interest in instructing him. Doom is pretty much self-taught. We never saw any extended scenes of doing any training yet he can slug it out with the Thing and he was able to kill a lion while naked.

Agree they need some familiar quality time, if possible fighting lions, but summoning demons or constructing robots are also accepted, clothes are optional. XD

I'm glad you mentioned the time when Kristoff was subjected to the Remembrancer in Byrne's run. Byrne has written on his blog/MB Byrne Robotics that the Doombots went far beyond what Doom had intended.

Yes, I remember that the original statement was:

"I intended Doom to return to Latvaria and absolutely FREAK OUT when he discovered what his robots had done to Kristoff. Basically -- he'd need a whole lot of new robots by the time he calmed down. And then he would devote a whole lot of time and energy to restoring Kristoff. (I had not decided if he would be successful. Part of my brain wanted him to realize he needed the help of the other smartest guy on the planet -- and there was no way he could ever go there!"

And I loved that idea, I wish he were allowed to finish that arc because I really would have liked to see Victor so human, and struggling with the feelings of remorse, angry, sadness and taking a blow to his pride like a father. Instead we get a rushed and anticlimactic final for that interesting conflict, an opportunity wasted IMO.

Since this week's cover of Old Man Quill #3 has Doom on the cover, I picked that up this week and was also able to get issues #1 and #2. Neither of those have Doom on the cover but there are some brief Doom "appearances".

Old Man Quill takes place after Old Man Hawkeye and Old Man Logan and apparently the last of the original rulers is Doom. Most of thes were killed off in Old Man Logan during fights over territories. The Red Skull rule over it all, which I didn't care for. For one thing, I couldn't see Doom leaving Latveria behind to rule a territory in the U.S. He also married Emma Frost. But most of all, I never like any story that involves Doom being lead by the Red Skull considering the history of the Romani killed by Hitler's reign over Nazi Germany.

Despite being on the cover of issue #3 but does appear on panel in issue #2, along with a Doombot. Doom's new HQ is the former Baxter Building and NYC is now known as New Latveria. With the Red Skull being killed by Logan at the end of Old Man Logan, I assume Doom must have taken over at some point. In Old Man Quill #2, we see him sitting on a throne that is apparently made from the outer skin of the Thing. But IIRC he was already dead in the original Old Man Logan and I don't think we ever saw his fate. Madame Masque does all the talking in this scene while Doom remains mute, which make me think that that possibility that this is another Doombot is very high.

Usually I don't follow the Old man Whatever, because all my favorites heroes are dead and those that I don't care were left alive (I'm not fan of Wolverine, Hawkeye or Quill) but some time ago a friend of mine insisted so much that I took a look on Old man Logan, so I will dare to give my opinion at least in the concerning to Doom.

I agree about that Victor shouldn't work with Red Skull no matter the benefices, he is very proud of his romani inheritance and Red Skull, well, a Nazi who send romani to hellish concentration camps to die. That's something that I think they couldn't just oversee. I also don't see a Nationalist as Doom leaving latveria to rule in EU, just, no. He loves his country and sadly that country tends to fall in anarchy and crisis when he is not in control of the place, also his obsession with stuff related to the FF seems to me like a step back from his development, still I can accept that he keeps living in latveria and sending Doom Bots to rule over his colonies. Still I hope that his throne is constructed in regular rock and the "Thing texture" were just for showing, because other way is a step back, too morbid and probably unsanitary.

Regarding his relationship with Emma, I kind of like the Emma-Doom couple, it's not my favorite one, but if the world were about to end I think that they could work together, Emma is beautiful, ambitious but loyal when she feels appreciated, pragmatic, and intelligent, (also sexy as hell) all those traits that a man as Doom could appreciate, Victor is powerful, intelligent, full of resources and connections, they have worked together before in Dark Reign and while sadly they didn't get enough interaction, we can see enough respect for each other and well Doom got some lustful thoughts. They could form a lasting couple. I hope his new interaction with Madame Masque doesn't mud that.

[nj06]

Since this week's cover of Old Man Quill #3 has Doom on the cover, I picked that up this week and was also able to get issues #1 and #2. Neither of those have Doom on the cover but there are some brief Doom "appearances".

So what happens is that the Guardians go back to a future Earth that was featured in the Old Man Logan arc in Wolverine #66-72 (2008). In this future, the villains were able to eliminate almost all of the heroes and divided the U.S. into territories ruled by various villains. The one "hero" that survived was Bruce Banner, who for reasons I forgotten forced his cousin Jennifer to give birth to a clan known as the Hillbilly Hulks.



Old Man Quill takes place after Old Man Hawkeye and Old Man Logan and apparently the last of the original rulers is Doom. Most of thes were killed off in Old Man Logan during fights over territories. The Red Skull rule over it all, which I didn't care for. For one thing, I couldn't see Doom leaving Latveria behind to rule a territory in the U.S. He also married Emma Frost. But most of all, I never like any story that involves Doom being lead by the Red Skull considering the history of the Romani killed by Hitler's reign over Nazi Germany.



Despite being on the cover of issue #3 but does appear on panel in issue #2, along with a Doombot. Doom's new HQ is the former Baxter Building and NYC is now known as New Latveria. With the Red Skull being killed by Logan at the end of Old Man Logan, I assume Doom must have taken over at some point. In Old Man Quill #2, we see him sitting on a throne that is apparently made from the outer skin of the Thing. But IIRC he was already dead in the original Old Man Logan and I don't think we ever saw his fate. Madame Masque does all the talking in this scene while Doom remains mute, which make me think that that possibility that this is another Doombot is very high. Conversely, the Doombot that appears on the street to pass out Doom meals to the hungry people of New Latveria does have a few lines but that's it. Guess I'll check out issue #4 but I really think someone else is pulling the strings with Madame Masque's assistance. Too bad because I think this is the first team-up of Madame Masque with Doom, or most likely a Doombot.

I like the artwork in the above panels. I think Doom looks great here. If that is a throne made of the Thing then I feel bad for Ben Grimm.

Also, as others have mentioned, I can't imagine Doom or Magneto teaming up with Red Skull. Both of them should want to see him dead.

[Kintor]

I like the artwork in the above panels. I think Dooom looks great here. If that is a throne made of the Thing then I feel bad for Ben Grimm.

Also, as others have mentioned, I can't imagine Doom or Magneto teaming up with Red Skull. Both of them should want to see him dead.

Missed it the first time but I had to take another look at that panel. You're totally right, that throne is made from the Thing! It's such a brilliantly sadistic idea I'm surprised nobody has thought of it before in a Doom ruled future.

Anyway, haven't actually read this series myself. I was debating whether to pick this up. The lack of dialogue from Doom is disconcerting; I guess I'll wait to see if things improve in #4 before deciding to jump in or not.