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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doom Answers to No Master View Post
    Well the folks over on the F4 thread seem to have a problem with issue 9's description for April:

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/01...ence-in-april/

    Sounds like Doom gets his mega win if you go strictly by that description...BUT things are usually not that cut and dry...I have LOVED Slotts run on F4 so far....I can't wait to read todays issue!!!
    Doom looking good at the Fantastic Four's expense? That's fine by me.

    Not going to gloat too much though, #9 might have a few twists and turns to salvage what's left of the Fantastic Four's reputation.

    Speaking of which, I've read #6 already, it's a good issue. Doom is represented well: dignified, powerful and the people of Latveria genuinely love him.

  2. #122
    Incredible Member Master Planner's Avatar
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    To tell the truth,i always hated when they wrote that people of Latveria loves Doom. It's too much of love letter to authoritarianism. I always prefered Latverians who respect Doom for taking care of them,but not loving him, because he is an egotistical tyrant and if you displease him,you will end in a dungeon or executed.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

    Previously known as Nefarius

  3. #123
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doom Answers to No Master View Post
    https://www.cbr.com/black-panther-2-...-doom-villain/

    I agree....Doom would be a great presence in Black Panther 2...Latveria being a rival technological nation to Wakanda....battle of intellects...
    Absolutely NOT. As a Namor fan, I can tell you, being in a Black Panther story is beyond TOXIC. Whoever wrote that article isn't a Black Panther fan, because most of the Black Panther fans I know HATE Doomwar. And I guarantee, any movie version of Doomwar isn't going to end with Doom looking the least bit good. Instead he'll be humiliated and trashed utterly. Keep that mess away.

    Now I'm really bummed Hawley didn't get to make the Doom movie before the merger.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  4. #124
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Absolutely NOT. As a Namor fan, I can tell you, being in a Black Panther story is beyond TOXIC. Whoever wrote that article isn't a Black Panther fan, because most of the Black Panther fans I know HATE Doomwar. And I guarantee, any movie version of Doomwar isn't going to end with Doom looking the least bit good. Instead he'll be humiliated and trashed utterly. Keep that mess away.

    Now I'm really bummed Hawley didn't get to make the Doom movie before the merger.
    Yeah, I wouldn't bring up Doomwar to a Black Panther fan. The movies shouldn't give us a faithful adaptation of that. But a Cold War between Latveria and Wakanda? Yeah, bring that on. Or you could simply take the story in Astonishing Tales #7 and show Doom plotting to get access to the vibranium mines.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Planner View Post
    To tell the truth,i always hated when they wrote that people of Latveria loves Doom. It's too much of love letter to authoritarianism. I always prefered Latverians who respect Doom for taking care of them,but not loving him, because he is an egotistical tyrant and if you displease him,you will end in a dungeon or executed.
    As you might expect I hold something of the opposite view. I find it hackneyed and unrealistic whenever the population of Latveria is depicted as blindly hating Doom. The great success of Doom as a character is that he poses a moral quandary to the Fantastic Four and the other superheroes. It's easy to overthrow an unpopular tyrant, to live that dream of being hailed in the streets as a saviour and bringer of freedom. It's much more difficult to selfishly depose a beloved philosopher king to gratify your own ego, the people you claim to save will hate you for it. That's who Doom is, he's the ironclad seed of doubt in every happy ending Marvel has ever written.

  6. #126
    Incredible Member DoomScribe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    As you might expect I hold something of the opposite view. I find it hackneyed and unrealistic whenever the population of Latveria is depicted as blindly hating Doom. The great success of Doom as a character is that he poses a moral quandary to the Fantastic Four and the other superheroes. It's easy to overthrow an unpopular tyrant, to live that dream of being hailed in the streets as a saviour and bringer of freedom. It's much more difficult to selfishly depose a beloved philosopher king to gratify your own ego, the people you claim to save will hate you for it. That's who Doom is, he's the ironclad seed of doubt in every happy ending Marvel has ever written.
    Excellent observation! Well said!
    "Because ... I am Doom
    ... What Gods dare stand against me?"


    Posting from the dungeon of Castle Doom, Latveria

  7. #127
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    As you might expect I hold something of the opposite view. I find it hackneyed and unrealistic whenever the population of Latveria is depicted as blindly hating Doom. The great success of Doom as a character is that he poses a moral quandary to the Fantastic Four and the other superheroes. It's easy to overthrow an unpopular tyrant, to live that dream of being hailed in the streets as a saviour and bringer of freedom. It's much more difficult to selfishly depose a beloved philosopher king to gratify your own ego, the people you claim to save will hate you for it. That's who Doom is, he's the ironclad seed of doubt in every happy ending Marvel has ever written.
    On top of that, we've had many different author's takes on how the people of Latveria view Doom as their leader. When Stan & Jack introduced the country of Latveria in FF annual #2, the people felt safer with Doom but they kept their distance. In their last Doom/Latveria story, the people had become more wary of Doom and the affection for the leader had faded. This continues until Byrne's run which went back to FF annual #2's attitudes of the people. And it's been mostly a seesaw ever since, depending on the writer. I am encouraged that Slott is taking Byrne's lead in how the people see Doom. I'm sure some dissidents will crop up and that can make things interesting.

    BTW, I will be starting a separate thread for Fantastic Four #6 later in case anyone wants to post there and not mind reading spoilers

  8. #128
    Astonishing Member Gambit, King of Thieves's Avatar
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    Reed: Victor you fool
    Doom: Yep. Definitely a fool. Absolutely didn't plan every aspect of this to end up in this exact situation.
    Doom: Oh wait.
    Cyclops was SO DAMN RIGHT, BABY
    Pull list: X-23, Mr. & Mrs. X, Extermination, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Uncanny X-Men
    Have been informed that the Black Swans are "only seeking female members, but thank you very much for your time"

  9. #129
    Incredible Member Master Planner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    As you might expect I hold something of the opposite view. I find it hackneyed and unrealistic whenever the population of Latveria is depicted as blindly hating Doom. The great success of Doom as a character is that he poses a moral quandary to the Fantastic Four and the other superheroes. It's easy to overthrow an unpopular tyrant, to live that dream of being hailed in the streets as a saviour and bringer of freedom. It's much more difficult to selfishly depose a beloved philosopher king to gratify your own ego, the people you claim to save will hate you for it. That's who Doom is, he's the ironclad seed of doubt in every happy ending Marvel has ever written.
    The proper way to write Doom, without turning him overtly heroic and make the heroes look weak in comparison, is to write Doom as an autocratic and self-centered tyrant who take care of his subjects, as long as they not create problems. People of Latveria respect Doom and maybe a majority loves him as long as he keeps the country prosperous,but Doom's absolutism could force a big number of citizens into hoping for more freedoms. Doom is not a corrupt cleptocrat kind of dictator,but certainly he is like Stalin, especially in his prime. A beloved leader who keeps the country safe and prosperous,but people would be in constant fear of doing something wrong and cause the wrath of the leader.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

    Previously known as Nefarius

  10. #130
    Extraordinary Member MichaelC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Planner View Post
    Doom is not a corrupt cleptocrat kind of dictator,but certainly he is like Stalin, especially in his prime.
    Stalin was actually pretty cleptocratic. All real-world dictatorships are kleptocracies, because that's just what real human beings do when one small group has all the power: they spend tax money on themselves, devote all their worktime to keeping themselves in power, and are as lazy as they can get away with when not working to keep power. I think that's the moral dilemma Doom creates for the Fantastic Four: is freedom worth fighting for when it is the only thing you are fighting for? In the real world that question never really needs to be answered, because dictatorship and kleptocracy are always utterly married in the real world. But what do you do if you discovered an exception to this? Would you continue to fight for freedom out of pure idealism, or would you accept that this situation is good by the utilitarian definition? There's an idealism vs utilitarianism subtext to stories where Doom is not corrupt.

    On the other hand, some stories portray him as just another kleptocrat. There's no depth to such stories. He's just someone who needs to be put down, ala the Ant-Man story.

  11. #131
    Incredible Member Master Planner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Stalin was actually pretty cleptocratic. All real-world dictatorships are kleptocracies, because that's just what real human beings do when one small group has all the power: they spend tax money on themselves, devote all their worktime to keeping themselves in power, and are as lazy as they can get away with when not working to keep power. I think that's the moral dilemma Doom creates for the Fantastic Four: is freedom worth fighting for when it is the only thing you are fighting for? In the real world that question never really needs to be answered, because dictatorship and kleptocracy are always utterly married in the real world. But what do you do if you discovered an exception to this? Would you continue to fight for freedom out of pure idealism, or would you accept that this situation is good by the utilitarian definition? There's an idealism vs utilitarianism subtext to stories where Doom is not corrupt.

    On the other hand, some stories portray him as just another kleptocrat. There's no depth to such stories. He's just someone who needs to be put down, ala the Ant-Man story.
    I enjoy the Ant-Man story,only for the beating that Doom got,although i would prefer that beating was from Richards or T'Challa after Doomwar.Hickman writes and interesting Doom,but sometimes he cames to heroic for my taste. I loved some of Lee-Kirby characterisations of Doom, where the manage to balance Doom's petty hate for Reed, his nobility and his attempts to protect his subjects in some cases. The difficult is to find the balance between Doom's good qualities and his ruthless, dictatorial style of rulling.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

    Previously known as Nefarius

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Planner View Post
    I enjoy the Ant-Man story,only for the beating that Doom got,although i would prefer that beating was from Richards or T'Challa after Doomwar.Hickman writes and interesting Doom,but sometimes he cames to heroic for my taste. I loved some of Lee-Kirby characterisations of Doom, where the manage to balance Doom's petty hate for Reed, his nobility and his attempts to protect his subjects in some cases. The difficult is to find the balance between Doom's good qualities and his ruthless, dictatorial style of rulling.
    Even your characterisation of Doom as a mere dictator is perhaps an oversimplification of the moral dilemma Marvel heroes face in Latveria. Doom has legitimized his rule by making himself king and enshrined this distribution of power in the Larverian legal system. Making Doom the leader of a constitutional monarchy, like so many other nations in the world, even in Europe. The problem then is less that Doom is king and more that he came to power via a revolution. Yet this is no less respectable then the (admittedly unlawful) foundations of American democracy. After all, Doom also promised freedom for his people, to fight Doom is to deny Latveria it's hard won independence amongst the international community.

  13. #133
    Incredible Member DoomScribe's Avatar
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    So I picked up Marvel Comics Presents #1 which came out last week. It's an anthology series with three stories in the issue. The first story was with Wolverine, the second with Namor and the third with Captain America. Now, Doom does not appear in any of these stories. Normally, I just glance at the books in the local comic shop, but I usually don't buy unless there's a Doom appearance (my focus is very narrow these days).

    But ....

    The Wolverine story is either very derivative of a certain Latverian just by coincidence, or it may end up ... It's a continuing story, so there will be other issues. It starts in France, during WWII, with a woman who appears to be gypsy (though not called out as such), who has a young daughter (not named), and is held captive by Nazi's, who want her to summon a demon. Which she does reluctantly. The Nazis are beset by an American troop that includes Logan, and a demon emerges as the woman is shot. The demon begins to kill everyone there. Only with Wolverine's help does she banish the demon. The woman dies, and only the daughter is left.

    So, what if the daughter is Cynthia, Doom's mother? There are of course other gypsy women who she could turn out to be (or maybe related to), but I'm going to keep following this story to see what follows.

    ds
    "Because ... I am Doom
    ... What Gods dare stand against me?"


    Posting from the dungeon of Castle Doom, Latveria

  14. #134
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomScribe View Post
    So I picked up Marvel Comics Presents #1 which came out last week. It's an anthology series with three stories in the issue. The first story was with Wolverine, the second with Namor and the third with Captain America. Now, Doom does not appear in any of these stories. Normally, I just glance at the books in the local comic shop, but I usually don't buy unless there's a Doom appearance (my focus is very narrow these days).

    But ....

    The Wolverine story is either very derivative of a certain Latverian just by coincidence, or it may end up ... It's a continuing story, so there will be other issues. It starts in France, during WWII, with a woman who appears to be gypsy (though not called out as such), who has a young daughter (not named), and is held captive by Nazi's, who want her to summon a demon. Which she does reluctantly. The Nazis are beset by an American troop that includes Logan, and a demon emerges as the woman is shot. The demon begins to kill everyone there. Only with Wolverine's help does she banish the demon. The woman dies, and only the daughter is left.

    So, what if the daughter is Cynthia, Doom's mother? There are of course other gypsy women who she could turn out to be (or maybe related to), but I'm going to keep following this story to see what follows.

    ds
    That would be an interesting addition to Doom's family history if true. I got that comic too and to tell the truth I skipped to the Sub-Mariner story, which I liked. I usually pass on Wolverine stories. I'll be getting the next issue now.

  15. #135
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Iron Maiden, and anyone living near Chicago, it looks like Alex Ross is going to display his art from Marvelocity at The Dunn Museum in Libertyville -- opening March 9. It will run through Sept. 9. You guys are so lucky!

    https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...-book-art.html
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

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