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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAS View Post
    Doesn't it all depend on Sue's definition of success?

    Mainstream Marvel Universe - Sue has always been a family person at heart. She wanted the marriage, the kids and the family to be together. Who's to say that THAT isn't the difference between the Sue of this universe and all the other Sues in the multiverse.
    Then my question is why is one often portrayed at the expense of the other? Why is it often shown that the mother has to sacrifice for the sake of the family? Why can't she both be successful and a wife/mother, like Reed is both a successful scientist and husband/father. Even the Lee/Kirby era Sue didn't just want to be a mother, she had other dreams and aspirations too in the beginning.

    Also, I never said that in the majority of those realities she wasn't married. She just wasn't married to Reed. Like this reality where she married Namor and is a warrior queen:



    It's not looking at her not being married with kids and thinking that she'll be better off without them. It's looking at her relationship with Reed compared to many alternate ones where she's not with him. Many of those realities have her married to someone else and still being successful while being a wife and mother. So why is that different with 616 Sue? We see how Sue benefits Reed, but how does he benefit and improve her? That's what I think should be explored and answered as for too long there has been a imbalance that writers lazily try to fix by giving her power showings instead of actual development.

    And when looking at the stories they get about the kids and family, Reed's has more depth than Sue's. There are many stories about Reed trying to be a better father and husband, the Hickman run was all about it. While Sue's stories are usually about her family being hurt and going into Mama Bear mode. It lacks depth.
    It's said that Sue is all about her family and stuff, but we don't even get good stories about it that develop the character. But we do with Reed plus he has stories and development that has nothing to do with the family. Something has to change with Sue because we get nothing of substance both in or out of the family for her. It's just variations of the same thing.

    Even Ben and Johnny have more complex and interesting stories about family compared to Sue.
    Last edited by Crimz; 01-25-2019 at 12:47 PM.
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  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Go buy Captain America guys. Today's issue introduced a new team, the Daughters of Liberty, and Sue's among them.
    https://www.cbr.com/captain-america-...rs-of-liberty/

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Go buy Captain America guys. Today's issue introduced a new team, the Daughters of Liberty, and Sue's among them.
    https://www.cbr.com/captain-america-...rs-of-liberty/
    Well. Marvel did it. They found a way to get me to buy a Captain America book.

    First Sue guest appearance in years!
    Last edited by Crimz; 01-30-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    I was reading some of the Youtube comments to this video:



    And some of them said that a heroine with powers of invisibility would be a bad representation for the company. While I don't want Sue to be the lead female hero for various reasons, I obviously disagree with her being a bad choice especially not because of her powerset. What do you guys think?

    (the video itself is also interesting by the way)
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  5. #65
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    I was reading some of the Youtube comments to this video:



    And some of them said that a heroine with powers of invisibility would be a bad representation for the company. While I don't want Sue to be the lead female hero for various reasons, I obviously disagree with her being a bad choice especially not because of her powerset. What do you guys think?

    (the video itself is also interesting by the way)
    We're talking behind Squirrel Girl, right? I'd imagine this is obviously deciding the runner-up.

    But seriously on Sue's power set, invisibility is pretty much the antithesis of what Marvel does and how they go about publishing. Now Sue's coming up from "the girl" to the most powerful member of the team which introduced so much of the Marvel Universe, that's more fitting the style and look of Marvel. I personally don't like the idea of an iconic symbolic single woman hero. People will always have favorites, but the idea is for a super-hero multiverse of many characters. And where no woman has really jumped out and fit into that role, I'd be OK with a selection of women, Sue, of course, being among them.

  6. #66
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Some past Marvel Handbook entries (1980s - early 1990s):


    from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Vol. 1 No. 5 (May 1983)


    from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Deluxe Edition Vol. 2 No. 6 (May 1986)


    from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Master Edition No. 21 (August 1992)

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    We're talking behind Squirrel Girl, right? I'd imagine this is obviously deciding the runner-up.

    But seriously on Sue's power set, invisibility is pretty much the antithesis of what Marvel does and how they go about publishing. Now Sue's coming up from "the girl" to the most powerful member of the team which introduced so much of the Marvel Universe, that's more fitting the style and look of Marvel. I personally don't like the idea of an iconic symbolic single woman hero. People will always have favorites, but the idea is for a super-hero multiverse of many characters. And where no woman has really jumped out and fit into that role, I'd be OK with a selection of women, Sue, of course, being among them.
    I agree that the idea there can only be one female character that is somehow better than all others is the wrong way to go. The fact that when someone asks about the lead female character so many names are thrown out is a good thing. DC's Trinity is limiting and should not be replicated. Instead of just pushing one character, Marvel should try to push as many as they can. Some may not do as well, but some may be great. Many characters deserve a push and this Highlander-like belief limits so many potentially great characters.

    On her powers and name, I always thought the Invisible Woman thing is so full of potential. There are so many women who are overlooked and feel invisible in all aspects of life from personal to professional, last year there was a hashtag highlighting many of the "Invisible Women". I think Sue could show that, the feeling of being overlooked especially when compared to male peers. That while her powers are invisible they are also powerful, the most powerful of her team. For me, I see that Sue can represent the want to become visible in many aspects of life. One of her powers is making things visible, there are many themes you can play with.

    I never saw her powers/codename as reason to not focus on her, so seeing those comments made me a bit sad.
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  8. #68
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Fantastic Four 2005

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Every character has (or at least should have) flaws. What are Sue's flaws?
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  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Silvermoth's Avatar
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    I reckon she’s the invisible woman in more ways than one, as in she always puts herself and her own needs last which means they’re often stampeded over by more aggressive personalities

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvermoth View Post
    I reckon she’s the invisible woman in more ways than one, as in she always puts herself and her own needs last which means they’re often stampeded over by more aggressive personalities
    Yeah, that's definitely one of her main ones. It isn't portrayed as a bad thing most of the time unfortunately and she has gotten better about it. It isn't as bad as it was in the past.

    Another one I can think of is self doubt. It's another flaw that she's worked on and gotten better about, but is still there.
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  12. #72
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Every character has (or at least should have) flaws. What are Sue's flaws?
    There aren't many. I do like Slott's bringing up her singing in his first FF issue. It adds a bit of ego to Sue which she probably has. Certainly it's nowhere near as great as Johnny, Val, or Reed, but she's done enough to deserve feeling good about herself. Her confidence is deserved, yet all too often she fails to use it as much as her partners do theirs.

    She also can go blue in her vocabulary. I love this about her and fanwank (head canon?) that she has a small white trash streak in her. She undoubtedly has guilty pleasures and has a sense of Roseanne in a June Cleaver package.

    And crimz, I don't want you to think I'm picking on you, but when we talk Sue I find it necessary to focus on those aspects we disagree on so I'm not going "I think so, too" all the time. I have the greatest respect for your Sue love.

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    There aren't many. I do like Slott's bringing up her singing in his first FF issue. It adds a bit of ego to Sue which she probably has. Certainly it's nowhere near as great as Johnny, Val, or Reed, but she's done enough to deserve feeling good about herself. Her confidence is deserved, yet all too often she fails to use it as much as her partners do theirs.

    She also can go blue in her vocabulary. I love this about her and fanwank (head canon?) that she has a small white trash streak in her. She undoubtedly has guilty pleasures and has a sense of Roseanne in a June Cleaver package.

    And crimz, I don't want you to think I'm picking on you, but when we talk Sue I find it necessary to focus on those aspects we disagree on so I'm not going "I think so, too" all the time. I have the greatest respect for your Sue love.
    I don't mind disagreements as long as people aren't rude. Disagreements can lead to new perspectives and seeing things from a different angle.

    I used to want Sue to be a doctor/in the medical profession. And while I still wholeheartedly believe she should have a profession and skillset, after reading different views I now think a different field may be better. Like Archaeology, especially after reading Fantastic Four: The End. So I'm good with different points of view.

    This is an appreciation thread, all the posts here are because people like the character in some shape or form even if what people like about the character may differ.
    Last edited by Crimz; 02-13-2019 at 08:58 AM.
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  14. #74
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    I don't mind disagreements as long as people aren't rude. Disagreements can lead to new perspectives and seeing things from a different angle.

    I used to want Sue to be a doctor/in the medical profession. And while I still wholeheartedly believe she should have a profession and skillset, after reading different views I now think a different field may be better. Like Archaeology, especially after reading Fantastic Four: The End. So I'm good with different points of view.

    This is an appreciation thread, all the posts here are because people like the character in some shape or form even if what people like about the character may differ.
    Have you been checking out the Age of Marvels New Universe thread? That FF book has a Sue, MD in the cast. I believe that was inapired by your thoughts and posts.

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Have you been checking out the Age of Marvels New Universe thread? That FF book has a Sue, MD in the cast. I believe that was inapired by your thoughts and posts.
    Oh cool.


    10char
    Last edited by Crimz; 02-13-2019 at 10:56 AM.
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