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  1. #151
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    If there's nothing wrong with it then why don't they make Damien, Garth, or Connor gay
    If you meant Connor Hawke (who is only half white) - I agree he should have been gay and seemed to be at first, and it's a disappointment he no longer exists. If you mean Kon-El, I disagree with you. Damian had options, because he was prepubescent prior to reboot. But Garth and Kon had long histories of being straight. I'm not at all fond of long-running characters changing sexual orientation (or racial identity). Those are significant to identity, and they already have 'ship bases for the old ones, so no one really believes they're going to end up with someone same sex in the end, because their primary partner has already been picked by the fandom. I agree, new gay or bi characters are much better than tacking the identity on to old ones, but he's a better choice than an older character with more heterosexual evidence. Like Chase Cameron, I never read anything with him before, so don't care. If it was character I'd read, I'd care (as I do with some others - all female and made bi now), so I am sympathetic.

    Cyborg...lamo physically and figuratively neutered
    No longer, thankfully. And I'm not sure what the figurative part is.

    I'm not too concerned about the jail scene - I expect this is very much a superhero-thing.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-20-2019 at 09:31 AM.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    If there's nothing wrong with it then why don't they make Damien, Garth, or Connor gay. There are so many other characters to choose from. Guarantee this would never be done cause of the desire in part to have straight white men identify with them. Well when Kaldur was first shown I had good appreciation for. He was grounded young man that found to be very powerful, but confident. His major issue was coping with combined, mixed heritage. Then for some ...odd reason...after showing him clearly having amorous heterosexual feelings, its tacked on that he's gay. Not feeling the PC trend that I'm supposed to be all cool with it. I could easy make a case for how Bruce Wayne/Batman is gay based on behavioral oddities, but bottomline editorial will never make that happen. If there's such demand for gay black male heroes, then cool make one from his inception. If there's a conversation to have with black male heroes and sexuality it seems to be either none or he's gay. What's the case against this???? John Stewart, barely put in prominent position and relationship status showing...weak, Cyborg...lamo physically and figuratively neutered. Beyond that what straight black male heroes are conversation movers in DC?
    You know this can still happen? Just because he's gay (or maybe BI) doesn't mean he's suddenly handicapped. It kind of seems lile you do have a problem with gay black man. Kaldur is literally the only one in comics at least. You want straight black male heroes then let me point you to Mr. Terrific, who if i remember correctly, just got his wife back from the dark multiverse. Though he may be gay in the arrow show, you have John diggle in a straight married relationship. Black lightning has 2 daughters and a prominent tv show. Like what lemonpeace said you are kind of overreacting.

  3. #153
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    As a gay Black man whose favorite comic book character of all time I could not be happier with the representation that Jackson brings to the table. I actually teared up a little bit when the aspect was added to him because maaaaaan, that type of thing would have absolutely floored me when I was a kid. and it added a whole nother layer to the character arc overall. Not only is he trying to come into his own as a hero but now he's also got to come into his own with his sexuality. How do you navigate that? How does it affect his relationships with people? We've already seen things with his mom and Manta but who else? Not many other gay characters for him to talk with so now he grows as a hero. That's how he becomes grounded. He works with other and learns what he can. Hopefully to come into his own.

    Again, the way he was brought into the comics is vastly different from the YJ version and at this point if you can't accept that they're never going to be the same character it would be best to just accept that you're probably not a fan of him. The blanket homophobia has no place.

  4. #154
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Damien is a child. Do we even have a clue what his sexuality even is? I can't recall him having a real love interest at all. For all we know, he could be gay or bi or whatever.

    Connor Hawke should've been gay. He seemed to be, but I don't think the 90's were ready for that and someone chickened out. If he ever returns? Keep that original characterization.

    Garth is firmly established as straight. He's had a wife and kids.

    Kaldur? In comics he existed for about five seconds before the reboot and I don't recall his sexuality ever being explored on any level. We assumed he was straight because that's the default, but it's not like the revelation that he's gay in Rebirth contradicted anything. Even if he mentioned having a girlfriend (which I dont remember if he did) its not like young gay men don't date women before realizing what they like.

    Not to mention, every other black hero in DC is straight. So if you need that, you've got plenty of options.
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  5. #155
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    Looking forward to learning what Jackson's been doing since his unexpected limboing following the member shift in Teen Titans. The author will have a lot on their plate with this character: not only do they need to explain what Jackson's been doing in the interim, but for the best delivery, they'll need to tackle why he isn't still part of the team. (We know out-of-universe thar the reason is likely simply because the current writer did not want to use Aqualad, but in-universe, no explanation was really given, so the best delivered explanation of what's been going on with Jackson will include why he's no longer with the Teen Titans.)

    Furthermore, and of course, the author will need to explain Jackson's current situation. I'm not going to lambaste just because Black dude is dealing with the authorities. While it can be used as a stereotype, it is also an unfortunate statistical reality of the world due to how US society is built in that regard. (Unsurprisingly, people have overplayed the Wally/Wallace instance, too, to the degree where one'd think he was a criminal with a long juvie record) Whether it is stereotypical depends on the context and nuance of its deployment. I am willing to wait to gain an understanding of the context once said context has been revealed, as the stinger nature of the reveal means we don't have any to pass thoughts on right now.

    I do wonder how he was able to get ahold of Arthur like he did. The why can be inferred that he appears to be seeking Arthur out specifically, but the how of it could use some explanation. Also, while not 100% necessary, for additional points in execution, I hope the author has Jackson specifically mention and acknowledge in some way (to Arthur or to the audience through narration or whathaveyou) that he could have easily escaped arrest/those handcuffs/his holdings if he wanted to, and that he chose not to for the sake of being honorable.

    Good to see him back in comics again.

  6. #156
    Incredible Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    As a gay Black man whose favorite comic book character of all time I could not be happier with the representation that Jackson brings to the table. I actually teared up a little bit when the aspect was added to him because maaaaaan, that type of thing would have absolutely floored me when I was a kid. and it added a whole nother layer to the character arc overall. Not only is he trying to come into his own as a hero but now he's also got to come into his own with his sexuality. How do you navigate that? How does it affect his relationships with people? We've already seen things with his mom and Manta but who else? Not many other gay characters for him to talk with so now he grows as a hero. That's how he becomes grounded. He works with other and learns what he can. Hopefully to come into his own.

    Again, the way he was brought into the comics is vastly different from the YJ version and at this point if you can't accept that they're never going to be the same character it would be best to just accept that you're probably not a fan of him. The blanket homophobia has no place.
    The presumption of homophobia is played, if you are referring to me personally. Cause you don't know me nor did I ever say anything about being fearful or hateful of gay men and women. It seems that people are going right over some very basic points I made in my post. It had to deal with me identifying myself with Kaldur as a straight black male character who was very different from the typical ex-convict, or basic blockheaded ghetto hero that have been put out. Having read him since first appearance he was set. Like you stated it was so exciting to see him and his quick growth in Aquaman book. Then to bring him back as this dude that is nothing like he was. I don't care or fault the average white if he doesn't like or care for black heroes I like. It doesn't matter if they can't identify the characters, it's cool. Likewise if I don't want to identify with what this has been changed to please explain why this is an issue. To be factual I said if DC makes gay characters...great! They change one ...dramatically. If this was done to a character any of you reallly cared about I'm sure you would feel some kind of way, let's not let hypocrisy get our discussion.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Damien is a child. Do we even have a clue what his sexuality even is? I can't recall him having a real love interest at all. For all we know, he could be gay or bi or whatever.

    Connor Hawke should've been gay. He seemed to be, but I don't think the 90's were ready for that and someone chickened out. If he ever returns? Keep that original characterization.

    Garth is firmly established as straight. He's had a wife and kids.

    Kaldur? In comics he existed for about five seconds before the reboot and I don't recall his sexuality ever being explored on any level. We assumed he was straight because that's the default, but it's not like the revelation that he's gay in Rebirth contradicted anything. Even if he mentioned having a girlfriend (which I dont remember if he did) its not like young gay men don't date women before realizing what they like.

    Not to mention, every other black hero in DC is straight. So if you need that, you've got plenty of options.
    I thought they hinted that he was at one point.


    Unsurprisingly, people have overplayed the Wally/Wallace instance, too, to the degree where one'd think he was a criminal with a long juvie record
    It was implied with Duke Thomas in We Are Robin.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    As a gay Black man whose favorite comic book character of all time I could not be happier with the representation that Jackson brings to the table. I actually teared up a little bit when the aspect was added to him because maaaaaan, that type of thing would have absolutely floored me when I was a kid. and it added a whole nother layer to the character arc overall. Not only is he trying to come into his own as a hero but now he's also got to come into his own with his sexuality. How do you navigate that? How does it affect his relationships with people? We've already seen things with his mom and Manta but who else? Not many other gay characters for him to talk with so now he grows as a hero. That's how he becomes grounded. He works with other and learns what he can. Hopefully to come into his own.
    One MAJOR issue-someone has to be WILLING to tell his story.

    See Prodigy of Marvel

    Before he came out-a co-lead in a 45 issue series and he got usage.
    Once he came out- he became a joke for Antman and barely appears in books not named Champions.

    I don't see all that being done in Aquaman's book unless you are going to have Aqualad backups. Because that is Aquaman (And MERA) book.

    Maybe they might do a mini since he is getting his own novel next year.

  9. #159
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    I thought they hinted that he was at one point.




    It was implied with Duke Thomas in We Are Robin.
    with Duke though, his situation made sense considering he was busting out of foster care to search for his parents since the police stopped looking. It wasn't stereotypical delinquent characterization or anything, it was a logical story-driven choice for the character; similar to characters like Billy Batson or Jason Todd.
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  10. #160
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    One MAJOR issue-someone has to be WILLING to tell his story.

    See Prodigy of Marvel

    Before he came out-a co-lead in a 45 issue series and he got usage.
    Once he came out- he became a joke for Antman and barely appears in books not named Champions.

    I don't see all that being done in Aquaman's book unless you are going to have Aqualad backups. Because that is Aquaman (And MERA) book.

    Maybe they might do a mini since he is getting his own novel next year.
    I doubt KSD would go to the lengths of bringing him in if she didn't have some type of plans for him. He might not get all the attention but he's definitely going to get something. Especially in her interviews she was talking about how she's been wanting to bring him on for awhile.

  11. #161
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    I hope he becomes close to the character he is in YJ, he's too great not to utilized in the comics.
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  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post

    It was implied with Duke Thomas in We Are Robin.
    We do know that Duke had a justifiably rough time of it during the point in his life immediately following Endgame, the event that tore his world to shreds and left him bouncing around unduly foster homes. Wallace's case was no where near as protracted, despite the impression that could be gained from some of the apparent "backlash" of having him be caught tagging once. (Both cases had realistic justifications, superhero set-dressings aside, for their circumstances and behavior during that time in their lives, with Duke's being more protracted given his circumstances and Wally's being more him venting his frustrations via street graffiti; Wally's/Wallace's tends to get overblown despite being a small blip even in his New 52 life.)

    My biggest takeaway had to deal with waiting for context and keeping an understanding of things before jumping to reactions, in relation to Aqualad.
    Last edited by J. D. Guy; 07-20-2019 at 06:08 PM.

  13. #163
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    I thought they hinted that he was at one point.
    It's been twenty years since I read those books, but I feel like it was very heavily implied that Connor was gay several times....at first. Then he ended up in some kind of relationship with a woman....gods I don't even remember. Might've been a response to anti-gay blow back (this was the 90's, people were even less tolerant twenty years ago), or a writer not doing their research.....hell I could be remembering this all wrong. But I always got the feeling he was gay and I vague recall being pissed when it turned out he wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    We do know that Duke had a justifiably rough time of it during the point in his life immediately following Endgame, the event that tore his world to shreds and left him bouncing around unduly foster homes. Wallace's case was no where near as protracted, despite the impression that could be gained from some of the apparent "backlash" of having him be caught tagging once. (Both cases had realistic justifications, superhero set-dressings aside, for their circumstances and behavior during that time in their lives, with Duke's being more protracted given his circumstances and Wally's being more him venting his frustrations via street graffiti; Wally's/Wallace's tends to get overblown despite being a small blip even in his New 52 life.)

    My biggest takeaway had to deal with waiting for context and keeping an understanding of things before jumping to reactions, in relation to Aqualad.
    I actually agree the Wallace blow back is usually out of proportion. He wasn't the only person in Central who was pissed at the Flash, nor the only kid to throw up a tag. His actions were understandable and a result of an extreme situation, not a character flaw. But the optics of it? That just looks bad. I mean, Wallace is far from the only hero to be arrested. At some point, practically everyone gets put in handcuffs (even Superman has been arrested!). But when its a young black man and he's showing up for the first time (or the first time in a long time, like Kaldur), and he's in trouble with the law? It's just a bad look.

    It's not as much a problem if we get to know the character first. We've known Wallace for years now, and we know what kind of kid he is (I've never found him particularly engaging but he's not a *bad* character). If he got arrested now, people would roll with it. We'd understand his situation better, and we know that Wallace is more than a "black kid gets busted" stereotype. It'd be part of the story, not part of his character. But a first appearance? You don't *have* a character at that point; readers know nothing about them, you just have a story. You uncover the character as you go. And it looks bad when all we know of that character is he's "the new black kid who got arrested in his first appearance."

    Granted, Kaldur's technically been in this continuity since 2016, but he hasn't had a lot of appearances and hasn't been seen at all in what, a year or two? His being in trouble with the cops and calling Arthur doesn't look as bad as the Wallace thing, but he hasn't been around in ages and *this* is how he shows back up? KSD seems like a woke individual from what little I know of her, so I'm sure there'll be a reasonable explanation for Kaldur's situation (haven't read her Aquaman yet though), but it's still not exactly a triumphant return.
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It's been twenty years since I read those books, but I feel like it was very heavily implied that Connor was gay several times....at first. Then he ended up in some kind of relationship with a woman....gods I don't even remember. Might've been a response to anti-gay blow back (this was the 90's, people were even less tolerant twenty years ago), or a writer not doing their research.....hell I could be remembering this all wrong. But I always got the feeling he was gay and I vague recall being pissed when it turned out he wasn't.



    I actually agree the Wallace blow back is usually out of proportion. He wasn't the only person in Central who was pissed at the Flash, nor the only kid to throw up a tag. His actions were understandable and a result of an extreme situation, not a character flaw. But the optics of it? That just looks bad. I mean, Wallace is far from the only hero to be arrested. At some point, practically everyone gets put in handcuffs (even Superman has been arrested!). But when its a young black man and he's showing up for the first time (or the first time in a long time, like Kaldur), and he's in trouble with the law? It's just a bad look.

    It's not as much a problem if we get to know the character first. We've known Wallace for years now, and we know what kind of kid he is (I've never found him particularly engaging but he's not a *bad* character). If he got arrested now, people would roll with it. We'd understand his situation better, and we know that Wallace is more than a "black kid gets busted" stereotype. It'd be part of the story, not part of his character. But a first appearance? You don't *have* a character at that point; readers know nothing about them, you just have a story. You uncover the character as you go. And it looks bad when all we know of that character is he's "the new black kid who got arrested in his first appearance."

    Granted, Kaldur's technically been in this continuity since 2016, but he hasn't had a lot of appearances and hasn't been seen at all in what, a year or two? His being in trouble with the cops and calling Arthur doesn't look as bad as the Wallace thing, but he hasn't been around in ages and *this* is how he shows back up? KSD seems like a woke individual from what little I know of her, so I'm sure there'll be a reasonable explanation for Kaldur's situation (haven't read her Aquaman yet though), but it's still not exactly a triumphant return.
    To the former, from what I've read, supposedly Chuck Dixon didn't like how much Connor Hawke, a handsome young male who didn't chase or let himself be chased by every female who passed him by and who also had impeccable chemistry with a number of other handsome young males, appealed to the LGBT+ crowd. Going from what I read, this prompted Dixon to write those out-of-nowhere sexual encounters with females, to prove that he's totes not gay or nothin' (if true, I doubt the concept of asexual or aromantic or the like every even crossed Dixon's mind, as long as Connor Hawke didn't have "gay cooties" or something...).

    For the latter, all I'll say is: fair enough. (My big thing is how the Wallace situation is stigmatized because it is generally only brought up and used by anti-fans as a crutch in their hate rants, a crutch that really doesn't stand-up to even-tempered scrutiny.)
    Last edited by J. D. Guy; 07-21-2019 at 08:02 AM.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Damien is a child. Do we even have a clue what his sexuality even is? I can't recall him having a real love interest at all. For all we know, he could be gay or bi or whatever.

    Connor Hawke should've been gay. He seemed to be, but I don't think the 90's were ready for that and someone chickened out. If he ever returns? Keep that original characterization.

    Garth is firmly established as straight. He's had a wife and kids.

    Kaldur? In comics he existed for about five seconds before the reboot and I don't recall his sexuality ever being explored on any level. We assumed he was straight because that's the default, but it's not like the revelation that he's gay in Rebirth contradicted anything. Even if he mentioned having a girlfriend (which I dont remember if he did) its not like young gay men don't date women before realizing what they like.

    Not to mention, every other black hero in DC is straight. So if you need that, you've got plenty of options.
    Kaldur actually existed on the show before he was brought into the comics and he was depicted as heterosexual on the show (though I recall Weissman saying something in an online conversation suggesting he was bisexual). But yes, his comic counterpart didn't really have his sexuality explored. There's a scene where he and Lorena are watching Arthur and Mera make out and Lorena warns him against getting any ideas but there's no indication he's even attracted to her.

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