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  1. #736
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    What makes Tim interesting in the first place? What can they do to make him a interesting character?
    Tim is the relatable Robin. He's a fanboy of Batman and Robin, he plays D&D, he's sleep-deprived, he's a nerd but he's cool... I came in very late but I think that's why people are drawn to him in the first place because he's such an entry point character.

    Oh, I forget. His one unique non-interchangeable point is having alive parents while he's Robin. He used to have to sneak out to "work" so that's an extra story that Dick, Jason, and Damian are tied to Batman and the Manor don't have. In other words, he has his own supporting cast right off the gate.

    So I think the best part of Tim was you can just get into him as the main character without knowing Batman first because he doesn't have to be tied to him all the time.

    They're dead now though, he's adopted by Bruce, and... that unique point no longer exists. (People like him being adopted by Bruce, but we're talking unique points here)

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I think his downfall is that they tried to make him TOO interesting. They tried too hard to force him INTO some kind of niche that made him stand out...

    Tim was the 'everyman'. He wasn't the son of an assassin or a street kid or an acrobat... he was just like us. Granted, he was rich... but it was an explaination of why he lived next to Bruce Wayne and his parents could be gone all the time... but Tim was pretty grounded. He went to school, he had friends, he dated normal non-super girls... He lived in the shadow of Jason's death and generally had to balance being intimidated by the danger and the fact he was NOT a born acrobat or natural fighter.... and 'living the dream' of being Batman's partner.

    Moving him into super tech guy and computer whiz.... pretty much ruined him. He always had some computer skills... but that was because computer skills were a big thing than and a LOT of kids could relate to that. His 'hacking' skills were pretty basic, because the writers weren't exactly computer people. They tried to push him as a master detective and a master computer hacker... and frankly they have too many of those people already and it isn't necessary.

    The 'everyman/normal kid' was his niche. We got more insight into Tim Drake than we ever did out of ordinary Dick Grayson or Jason Todd out of costume. I think some time around Infinite Crisis or before he lost it. All his supporting characters were supers... he lost his civilian life and became 'just another robin'.
    Yes. This.

    Though I wonder why. Tim was really big back then. They don't need to change him.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 12-12-2019 at 10:33 PM.

  2. #737
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Okay so best way is keep his parents alive and not have him not it’s Bruce Wayne. I wonder how we can make his computer skills still be apart.

  3. #738
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Okay so best way is keep his parents alive and not have him not it’s Bruce Wayne. I wonder how we can make his computer skills still be apart.
    I don't think 'computer skills' or even 'detective' NEED to be focused on. Those should be generic skills they ALL have. All of Tim's fancy computer work in the 90's... can be done with a cell phone by a ten year old now. It was just another tool to show he was young and hip. Now it's just standard.

    The one big problem I have with Tim being 'a detective' is that it implies that Dick isn't. Dick and Jason were raised by the world's greatest Detective and he taught them EVERYTHIGN they needed to know to do the Job. Not just fighting and throwing boomerangs... but How to be just like him. The psychology, the chemistry, the computers... the whole thing. Tim should absolutely have the skills... but focusing on them as 'what makes him special' takes it away from the others. honestly, this was my biggest issues with Cass. She didn't learn nuthin'. She was already an amazing fighter... Bruce didn't school her on any of the mental aspects.. she was basically a weapon that he set loose on Gotham but she wasn't treated as a sidekick/student/protégé. And considering how mentally stunted she was... she really needed the MOST training.

  4. #739
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    There have actually been some movies with Tim, he was in 2 of the Batman Unlimited Movies (he was replaced by Damian in the third) in Batman Ninja and in several of the DCAU Movies (even if that version was closer to Jason).

    I think one big reason is also timing, they just didn't made animated movies outside of the DCAU movies during the hght of Tims popularity in the comics. Another is that there are iird no big Batman stories centred around Tim.

  5. #740
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    There have actually been some movies with Tim, he was in 2 of the Batman Unlimited Movies (he was replaced by Damian in the third) in Batman Ninja and in several of the DCAU Movies (even if that version was closer to Jason).

    I think one big reason is also timing, they just didn't made animated movies outside of the DCAU movies during the hght of Tims popularity in the comics. Another is that there are iird no big Batman stories centred around Tim.
    Knightfall could be awesome. Technically my first introduction to Tim. Love seeing him drop Riddler and try to babysit Jean Paul... But if they did do that now, it'd probably Damian. Though I really couldn't ever see Damian training (or settling) for anyone but him replacing Bruce.

  6. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Knightfall could be awesome. Technically my first introduction to Tim. Love seeing him drop Riddler and try to babysit Jean Paul... But if they did do that now, it'd probably Damian. Though I really couldn't ever see Damian training (or settling) for anyone but him replacing Bruce.
    He would vocally oppose the choice and he would be right to do so

  7. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Knightfall could be awesome. Technically my first introduction to Tim. Love seeing him drop Riddler and try to babysit Jean Paul... But if they did do that now, it'd probably Damian. Though I really couldn't ever see Damian training (or settling) for anyone but him replacing Bruce.
    But Tim was not really that central to Kinghtfall, and you would have anyway to drastically shorten it for an movie adaptation.

    Thats also a problem most of the crossover events from the 90s and early 2000s, are all way to long for a movie adaptation.

    It wasn't really untill Hush that they started to do shorter events that didn't cross over the entire line of Batman titles. And that was unfortunately around the time of Identity Crisis and OYL.

  8. #743
    Mighty Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I think his downfall is that they tried to make him TOO interesting. They tried too hard to force him INTO some kind of niche that made him stand out...

    Tim was the 'everyman'. He wasn't the son of an assassin or a street kid or an acrobat... he was just like us. Granted, he was rich... but it was an explaination of why he lived next to Bruce Wayne and his parents could be gone all the time... but Tim was pretty grounded. He went to school, he had friends, he dated normal non-super girls... He lived in the shadow of Jason's death and generally had to balance being intimidated by the danger and the fact he was NOT a born acrobat or natural fighter.... and 'living the dream' of being Batman's partner.

    Moving him into super tech guy and computer whiz.... pretty much ruined him. He always had some computer skills... but that was because computer skills were a big thing than and a LOT of kids could relate to that. His 'hacking' skills were pretty basic, because the writers weren't exactly computer people. They tried to push him as a master detective and a master computer hacker... and frankly they have too many of those people already and it isn't necessary.

    The 'everyman/normal kid' was his niche. We got more insight into Tim Drake than we ever did out of ordinary Dick Grayson or Jason Todd out of costume. I think some time around Infinite Crisis or before he lost it. All his supporting characters were supers... he lost his civilian life and became 'just another robin'.
    THIS!

    I agree with you in every aspect, Tim was a normal person struggling with his new superhero life.
    He had to earn his role, to win Bruce hesitation on having again a Robin around. Tim was respectfully of every other people, his strength was in his modesty. He learned fast too and gained Bruce trust and respect.
    I loved Tim/Dick relationship a lot, Chuck DIxon explored this brotherhood magnificently.
    Exactly as Kyle Rayner at that time, Tim succeded in become a respectful hero and take his place in DCU.

    Imo he was the perfect Robin, faithful partner for Batman and reference point for every young hero. He was a everyman placed right at the center of DCU.

    Then Damian came, they moved him from this role starting a new direction with Red Robin. At first it was even interesting and seemed a natural growth till N52.
    After Flashpoint he lost all his features turning into a supertech arrogant bland guy.
    I initially had some hope with Bendis but i'm losing it now. I wonder what will happen to him while Bendis will leave YJ. He's a broken character and this Drake duck thing is only making things worse.

  9. #744
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    How would you write Tim? If he is a everyday man how does this affect him as robin? Sure him playing D&D is very cool idea to play with.

  10. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yes. This.

    Though I wonder why. Tim was really big back then. They don't need to change him.
    I would say the problem is that the "every man" concept usually does not work so much in the long term.

    The benefit of the "every man" concept is that you make the audience easily identify with the character. However, you need to develop the character in some direction to maintain long-term interest.

    "Every man" concept also does not work very well if the "every man" character is not the main character in the story. This is probably the reason why Tim's backstory was changed in The New Batman Adventures cartoon.
    Last edited by Konja7; 12-13-2019 at 09:39 AM.

  11. #746
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    So the question becomes after the Everyman yo built him up when need something that helps him grow. With how everything is he would need to be mix of the all the robins.

  12. #747
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I would say the problem is that the "every man" concept usually does not work so much in the long term.

    The benefit of the "every man" concept is that you make the audience easily identify with the character. However, you need to develop the character in some direction to maintain long-term interest.

    "Every man" concept also does not work very well if the "every man" character is not the main character in the story. This is probably the reason why Tim's backstory was changed in The New Batman Adventures cartoon.
    So he still needs a niche, but not something that can be interchangeable when a writer feels lazy. So not detective or hacker since everyone else can do those in different capacities... by that I mean Tim can keep the title of the best detective in the family, but I think he also needs another that a writer can't just give to another Robin. Something new.

    I mentioned before that having living parents is what separates him from the rest of the family for me, and makes him able to stand as his own as the main character. So next is character development. DC decided his parents should die and this lead to a darker Tim who made a hit list of possibly dangerous people and can work with Ra's or Red Hood.

    If his parents never died since I prefer it that way, once he stopped being a Robin after Damian nudged him out of that role and after he found Bruce who was lost in time, what should he do? His parents live in Gotham, so as Red Robin at this point, will he stay or go to rejoin his Teen Titans?

    Combining it with Rebirth, Steph and Cass are veterans now, so if he stays in Gotham, the only people he needs to train with Batwoman are Clayface and maybe Duke. Then once that's disbanded he's joining his old friends.

    I guess in the end he's gonna leave Gotham and his parents to join Kon, Cass, and Bart anyway. What he'll do from then on is still unknown. The current Young Justice is still trying to redefine him, so anything can happen, and I don't have an idea yet besides continuing being a leader of his youth group.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 12-13-2019 at 10:36 AM.

  13. #748
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    What hooked me with Tim was the detective skills. Yes, everyone has them; but Tim was the kid who discovered Batman's secret identity. He had a knack for creative, out-of-the-box problem solving and would frequently use that to best foes that were too capable for him to take on directly. In short, he tended to come out on top by out-thinking his opponents rather than outfighting them.

    You get this most clearly in the Zero Hour Robin issues, where Tim encounters a version of Dick Grayson who's still a teenaged Robin. They have an adventure together, and Tim is feeling a bit overwhelmed at Dick's athletic prowess: he's not a natural acrobat like Dick. But in the end, Tim is the one who realizes that there's someone behind the scenes pulling strings and stuns Dick by uncovering the ploy. It's not that the others aren't detectives, too; it's that the detective and problem-solving stuff comes naturally to Tim, whereas the others in the Bat-Family (even Barbara) have to work at it. The same way that Tim has to put more effort into the physical stuff.

    Heck, even when he became Red Robin, this was his thing: for his first story arc, the premise was that he knew that Bruce wasn't dead, even though all of the evidence seemed to point the other way. He couldn't put his finger on why he knew, which was why the rest of the Bat-Family figured that he had gone mad with grief; but he knew it. And then he spent the first story arc trying to prove it. Ultimately, it was because of his efforts that everyone eventually discovered that Bruce had been lost in time.

    And then there was his confrontation with Ras al'Ghul, continuing his long tradition of taking on Batman's most dangerous foes and out-thinking them. This was a particularly sweet victory, because Ras' strength is in being a mastermind: out-thinking Lady Shiva or the Joker is one thing; but out-thinking someone who's whole schtick is seeing all the angles is quite another: it was truly the apex of his career when Ras called him “Detective”.

    Unfortunately, that was Tim's high-water mark. That story was followed by one where it was revealed that Tim was doing the same “Tower of Babel” style of contingency plans that Bruce had gotten so much flak for a few years earlier: rather than being presented as clever, the writers went back to presenting him as devious — a subtle but important distinction. And then New 52 hit.
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  14. #749
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Knightfall could be awesome. Technically my first introduction to Tim. Love seeing him drop Riddler and try to babysit Jean Paul... But if they did do that now, it'd probably Damian. Though I really couldn't ever see Damian training (or settling) for anyone but him replacing Bruce.
    Damian babysitting Jean Paul's Batman during Knightfall is going to end in an absolute disaster. Unless they radically change Damian's personality and behaviour, that they had in a few instances, already.
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

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  15. #750
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Damian babysitting Jean Paul's Batman during Knightfall is going to end in an absolute disaster. Unless they radically change Damian's personality and behaviour, that they had in a few instances, already.
    Yeah... the whole point of Azbats was that he was violent and brutal and showed no mercy.... and Tim was strictly 'We do it Bruce's way or not at all..."

    Damian WAS the Robin's version of Azbats. Hyper brutal with no problems at all leaving headless bodies in his wake. It would be a very different story...


    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I would say the problem is that the "every man" concept usually does not work so much in the long term.

    The benefit of the "every man" concept is that you make the audience easily identify with the character. However, you need to develop the character in some direction to maintain long-term interest..

    I think Everyman can work long term... It's done pretty well for Spider-man and Wally West. What does NOT work long-term is the 'rookie' striving to live up to his predecessor. It's a very compelling story in the beginning... but eventually they HAVE to get comfortable in the role. They can't be the inexperienced guy forever... and then you lose what made them interesting in the first place. It happened with Kyle Rayner, the New Warriors, it happened for me at least with Wally. LOVE the story where he became as fast as Barry and broke that mental barrier... but what came after... meh. The focus shifting to the Rogues was pretty sweet.


    For me the 'Everyman' role needs a supporting cast. They need problems you can relate to. Oversleeping and missing work because he was up all night.... Blowing off friends to fight crime... dating... paying bills... all while juggling the mask. That can go on forever if done well. Tim stagnated once he lost his civilian life. Spider-man still lives quite comfortably there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I
    "Every man" concept also does not work very well if the "every man" character is not the main character in the story. This is probably the reason why Tim's backstory was changed in The New Batman Adventures cartoon.
    That's a fact. It's tough to do that justice without a book of your own. I feel like JLI team books were able to pull that off to some level.... but that's focusing on a team. "MAIN CHARACTER and his sidekicks" will never have enough spotlight.

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