Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2019

[CPSparkles]

Before we start throwing stones from our glass houses. Ti m Drake was the Robin especially created to be solo and independent from Batman. It was with Tim that Robin stopped being a sidekick and more of a solo hero.


As someone who is clearly a knowledgeable fan I'm pretty certain you know this. If you didn't then do your research so you don't come across as ignorant or projecting.

[dietrich]

Robin core was for 70 years to be the batman apprentice. Dick, Jason and Tim had a relationship mentor/protegè with Bruce, in different ways and fortune but everyone was on this level.
Damian no, cause he's Batman son. Relationship has moved to father/son. He moved the core of Robin role, this is a fact. Damian solo book had "son of the Batman" in the title!
Was Robin (as Dick, Jason or Tim LOL) your favorite character before Damian? I think no, now it is because it's all changed. Dick and Jason as Nightwing and Red Hood don't count.

Morrison knew that, in fact Damian was destined to be Robin for Dick, not Bruce. And, as we all know, Batman is Bruce and when he inevitably came back Morrison preferred to kill Damian.
What people wanted was Damian and Dick, that was the relationship that worked. After his return Bruce and Damian were barely together and many autors didn't want to write them (Snyder anyone?).
Tim suffered as a character, as I said before, cause N52 abruptly interrupted his grown as Red Robin. 5 years timeline disintergated his history and they erased all his positon in the DCU, not beacuse he didn't work but because they wanted to rejuvenate Batman. Same destiny he had to share with many legacy characters. Wally West for example, is he a character that didn't work too?
It's only editorial, you know.



This is only your opinion. I prefer Tim or Dick since you mentioned Jason. Tim is used as Robin in Young Justice cartoon and Walmart comics, so I don't really think WB/DC want only Damian, Jason or Duke.



I think I've widely explained the reasons.
Batman beyond was a mistake since the start, Tim fan wanted him back in his days as Red Robin with real Kon-El, Bart and Cassie and in the batfamily with his past relationships with Bruce, Dick, Stephanie, Cassandra etc. not stay away from all that in a future book.
On the other side Terry McGinnis fans felt usurped by Tim. I can't blame them.



It's the same here. Damian fans attitude against Tim make difficult to appreciate the ugly brat.
I'd like DC to explore this angst between the characters and the fan bases with a great story. You don't, it's a pity.



Obviously we disagree even on this. I find it horrible, I'll wait for a better look to definitely judge it.



He was perfect, yes. Give him a chanche to grow-up without erase after one or two years all his past. Cause every character is nothing without his history.
Rebirth wanted to do that, taking back history and legacy to many characters who suffered after N52 shame. This is the reason they put him back to red yellow and green suit, giving him a link to his past again, admitting their big mistake. Now they're trying again, I hope with a plan and a meaning without rebooting everything soon.

Robin is still batman's sidekick and his son. I'm going to repeat YOU don't get to tell the property owners what their core is. Just because it's harder for you to insert yourself into the role because Robin is now an actual blood son [your words from a different debate] isn't anyone's problem but yours. Not everyone wants to live through the characters they read. Not every character has to be a self insert. I'm cool without thrusting myself into a fictional character. Lots and lots of people are actually.

Again with the wild assumptions

Grant Morrison on why he killed Damian [interview from McCabe, Joseph. 100 Things Batman Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die. Triumph Books, 2017.]


Your work also showed other creators how the character can evolve. Like when you gave him a son in Damian.

Yeah. But I always just wanted to kill the kid so he wouldnÂ’t affect the future of Batman. Because I knew [writer] Scott Snyder didnÂ’t want to have to deal with the son. Because his Batman was a loner, he was a bit more human. He could screw up more. Whereas my Batman wasÂ…Okay, youÂ’ve done 15 years of training. YouÂ’re a zen master. You wouldnÂ’t have those hatreds anymore. The training would have bombed you out. YouÂ’d be an optimum man by this point, psychologically quite pure.

YouÂ’d have inner peace.

Yeah. So that’s my Batman. He’s the optimum man. He’s solved his problems. But I understand why it’s cool to write about a Batman who’s a bit more angry and angst-driven and just dealing with the mission. So that’s why I wanted Damian out of the picture—“Here’s the story and then he dies and Batman can move on and you need never mention the kid again.” But the kid then proved popular, and he’s in there again, screwing up the continuity. So I’m kind of pleased with that. But, you know…[Laughs.]


And yet Bruce and Damian also proved a hit. When they weren't together fans demanded that just as fans demanded Dick and Damian.

Synder is the only writer that had a problem writing Damian because he reminded him of his young son. This changed the moment Damian got aged up. Synder even changing his plans and including him in metal.

Priest, Orlando, Tomasi, Jurgens, Seeley, Taylor, Tomasi, Gleason, Kelly and Langzing. Just a few of the writers that enjoy writing the two. Some even fighting for the pleasure 10 v 1 Please.... you need a better countering facts.

Strange that they kept newer character some even given stronger foundation yet Tim is the one they scrapped.

I worded that wrong. I meant that fans now have a choice/options. They can follow Damian, Tim, Jason ,Duke, Nightwing unlike back when they only had Tim and Nightwing

That what I meant by my original comment about increased competition? That readers and creators now have a choice? When it comes to Sidekicks they now have a choice unlike before when it was Tim or Tim.

Ugly! Wow. Well I suspect that you view Tim differently since you enjoy insert characters. I think how a character looks depends on the artist. This is the 2nd time I've seen a Tim fan call another Robin ugly. You guys must value aesthetics a whole lot. I'd rather DC explore Damian's dynamic with Jason or Duke thank you.

[dietrich]

The "management support" was pretty bad. The new 52 Teen Titans were a mess and the Batman Beyond Tim was unrecognisable as Tim (honestly he felt to me more like Dick). And Batman Beyond is anyway a pretty fringe book (beeing Batman in the Eath 2 books did also not really anything for Dick in terms of popularity), and most fans would had probably preferred to get a Red Robin solo over this.

Damian was exiled from the Bat office and replaced. It was bad all around but Tim had more support and double the odds as any other with two titles and don't even get me started on BRE. That should have celebrated Dick Grayson and the Robins but didn't even have the current Robin. Tim had more support than most. Grayson and Robin Son of Batman were enjoyable but that doesn't = greater support. Tim had 2 titles so he had good support.

[dietrich]

Dietrich, Korath, why are you even here? is clear that you don't like him and that's fine, but why come to the appreciation thread?, is clear that he has nothing that appeals to you, so you probably should keep it outside here.

Fine goodbye

[Konja7]

Apart from the new suit (that I dislike), the current situation of Young Justice is not very good, which would probably also hurt Tim.

Young Justice #7 floppies sold 26,777 (this doesn't have a stock card version, so there are not other numbers).

In itself, this isn't a bad number (although disappointing that the hype for the return of YJ4 has dissapear so fast). The worrying thing is that these sales are still falling (slow, but constant).

[failo.legendkiller]

Robin is still batman's sidekick and his son. I'm going to repeat YOU don't get to tell the property owners what their core is. Just because it's harder for you to insert yourself into the role because Robin is now an actual blood son [your words from a different debate] isn't anyone's problem but yours. Not everyone wants to live through the characters they read. Not every character has to be a self insert. I'm cool without thrusting myself into a fictional character. Lots and lots of people are actually.

Relating to a character is just a part of the problem, not the heart of the matter. Mentor/protegè and father/son are two different way of relationship.
Both are interesting but different, Robin role has been in a kind for 70 years and then changed with Damian. This is the point.
You may prefer the latest, of course, but I'm not. I'm not interest in Robin anymore as I always did before with Dick, Jason and Tim.

Again with the wild assumptions

Grant Morrison on why he killed Damian [interview from McCabe, Joseph. 100 Things Batman Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die. Triumph Books, 2017.]


Your work also showed other creators how the character can evolve. Like when you gave him a son in Damian.

Yeah. But I always just wanted to kill the kid so he wouldnÂ’t affect the future of Batman. Because I knew [writer] Scott Snyder didnÂ’t want to have to deal with the son. Because his Batman was a loner, he was a bit more human. He could screw up more. Whereas my Batman wasÂ…Okay, youÂ’ve done 15 years of training. YouÂ’re a zen master. You wouldnÂ’t have those hatreds anymore. The training would have bombed you out. YouÂ’d be an optimum man by this point, psychologically quite pure.

YouÂ’d have inner peace.

Yeah. So that’s my Batman. He’s the optimum man. He’s solved his problems. But I understand why it’s cool to write about a Batman who’s a bit more angry and angst-driven and just dealing with the mission. So that’s why I wanted Damian out of the picture—“Here’s the story and then he dies and Batman can move on and you need never mention the kid again.” But the kid then proved popular, and he’s in there again, screwing up the continuity. So I’m kind of pleased with that. But, you know…[Laughs.]


And yet Bruce and Damian also proved a hit. When they weren't together fans demanded that just as fans demanded Dick and Damian.

Synder is the only writer that had a problem writing Damian because he reminded him of his young son. This changed the moment Damian got aged up. Synder even changing his plans and including him in metal.

Priest, Orlando, Tomasi, Jurgens, Seeley, Taylor, Tomasi, Gleason, Kelly and Langzing. Just a few of the writers that enjoy writing the two. Some even fighting for the pleasure 10 v 1 Please.... you need a better countering facts.

I can't find he interview but I clearly remember Morrison saying that previously Damian should be killed after 4 issues after his appearence, he would serve to recreate a kind of relationships between two separate parents, Bruce and Talia. So he imagined him as the son of Batman, not as Robin.
Just in a second moment he thought of Damian as the perfect Robin for Dick, and he liked that relationship so much that he'd like to write stories about them for other 5 years.
Anyway he had to leave so he decided that when his run was finished, all the toys should go back to the box leaving the room as he found it.

Strange that they kept newer character some even given stronger foundation yet Tim is the one they scrapped.

I worded that wrong. I meant that fans now have a choice/options. They can follow Damian, Tim, Jason ,Duke, Nightwing unlike back when they only had Tim and Nightwing

That what I meant by my original comment about increased competition? That readers and creators now have a choice? When it comes to Sidekicks they now have a choice unlike before when it was Tim or Tim.

When Tim was Robin we had Cassandra, Stephanie, Azrael, Batwing, Huntress well featured and active in all Bat books and of course Nightwing and Oracle. I'd take any of these characters instead of Duke. Competition has always been there.

Ugly! Wow. Well I suspect that you view Tim differently since you enjoy insert characters. I think how a character looks depends on the artist. This is the 2nd time I've seen a Tim fan call another Robin ugly. You guys must value aesthetics a whole lot. I'd rather DC explore Damian's dynamic with Jason or Duke thank you.

Sorry for this one, I'm not anglophone and I didn't mean this. I mean Damian has a bad attitude, he is unpleasant. Not look bad.

Anyway, we obviously have different point of views, it happens. You said that your hate for Tim is caused by his fans but is you that came here teasing.
Please just avoid to come here just to denigrate Tim.
If you want to argue about Tim or his relationship with Damian or whoever, you're welcome. But as you said, you don't care so I leave you to you're infinite options Jason and Duke.

[Aahz]

Damian was exiled from the Bat office and replaced.

So was Tim before Rebirth and is seemingly now again, Teen Titans ans Young Justice are not under the control of the Batman office, and he gets usually less Guest appearances in other batfamily-books then Dick and Damian.

And Super Sons had in it's first volume at least a strong connection to the superman books.

It was bad all around but Tim had more support and double the odds as any other with two titles and don't even get me started on BRE.

Tim's role in BRE was also not that big, and Damian got Robin War instead.

Grayson and Robin Son of Batman were enjoyable but that doesn't = greater support. Tim had 2 titles so he had good support.

Dick had also Titans and if we count alternate Versions Earth 2+Convergence.

[Korath]

Almost a full shot of Tim new costume :

[KrustyKid]

Almost a full shot of Tim new costume :

I like it. I'd give it a 7/10. At least he doesn't resemble Robin or any of the former ones.

[Zaresh]

Almost a full shot of Tim new costume :

Well, it's definitely something different. Not outstanding but different at least. Reminds me of a bee or a wasp, to be honest.

[scottshamel]

I like his new suit the only thing that gives me ? Because it stands out is the red pouches on his ultility belt

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

[Jadeb]

Looks like it was designed by Mezco, what with the detailing and the knee pads and that belt.

This suit is better than the feathers but a big step down from his original and Red Robin looks. Seems kinda generic, but maybe it will make more sense once we know his new code name.

Miss having a logo on his chest.

[Vic Vega]

It actually looks worse than Earth 2 Robin's first costume.

Frankly, it looks like something that a member of the Legion of Substitute Heroes would wear.

[Katana500]

I quite like it. I have a feeling it will grow on people depending on the name. Surprised he doesn't have a logo though.