Page 22 of 24 FirstFirst ... 1218192021222324 LastLast
Results 316 to 330 of 360
  1. #316
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    5,024

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    It would appear that fans have their special bias tinted googles on when we read comics. Characters get dumbed down around tim especially Dick and Jason.
    At least in Dicks case I that hi getting dumbed down had more to do with Barbara as Oracle and far less with Tim.

    I Jason's case he get generally not much opportunity to shine if he get's paired up with another Batfamily member, and some writers write him like an idiot regardless if Tim is arround or not.

  2. #317
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,452

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I always find weird when people say that Tim's problem is that he wasn't designed to be anything more than Robin, mostly because none of the boys were mean to go beyond that either, Dick became Nightwing because he was thriving in NTT and couldn't be a sidekick anymore, Jason was mean to fill the hole than Dick left and was eventually rebooted into something more or less new
    Dick Grayson is the good student who finished his training and went his own way. Jason Todd is the student who was let down by his master and rejected his teachings.

    What narrative path is left for Tim? The obvious one would be the student who takes the master's place - but that's not going to happen, Bruce Wayne will always be Batman. Tim's been in an awkward position for years, where he's too popular to be written out of the series, but no longer serves his original purpose and hasn't been given a compelling new purpose.

    We'll just have to wait and see if they manage to pull it off in Young Justice.

  3. #318
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    None of the others were created by committee with intensive data to be the ideal sidekick.
    That was just his origin and base concept tho, a cautious kid with good instincts that respected Batman and admired Robin.
    The actual character wouldnt get a personality and development until later, and it was pretty much all Dixon.

  4. #319
    Mighty Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Rome, Italy
    Posts
    1,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkcrusade25 View Post
    This was what we talked about. IDK why the author thinks this is a bad thing. As long as the name feels heroic its all good. I trust Bendis 100% on this. I hope it has the same success that Nightwing and Red Hood was for Dick and Jason.

    Tim as Robin is great and i dont mind seeing more of it. But the character has to move on and grow up just like the gen that started reading him has.

    Im also glad they confirmed a new costume too. Tim is more of a red and black costume char. Although we dont know what his new suit will look like.
    Problem is that Tim already grown-up and changed his identity. He already had a new route, a new one that was even logical and natural at first.
    Then N52 came and everything was messed-up.
    All the work done by Tynion is useless except for establish again his origin as Robin.
    I have trust zero in Bendis and I really don’t know how he could fix all this mess if not taking over the baton from Red Robin end before N52.
    I’m really worried of losing my favorite character for good.
    Last edited by failo.legendkiller; 04-15-2019 at 01:45 AM.

  5. #320
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,710

    Default

    ‘Red Robin’ name may have worked in Kingdom Come…and that’s where it should have stayed.

    If a villain wants to use that name, then that would be great.

    I think it’s time Tim left the Robin nest.

  6. #321

  7. #322
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    7,036

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    That was just his origin and base concept tho, a cautious kid with good instincts that respected Batman and admired Robin.
    The actual character wouldnt get a personality and development until later, and it was pretty much all Dixon.
    That origin and Base concept is at the core of the actual character. Dixon didn't change what was at the core.

    -Tim is the normal kid who wanted to help because batman needed help and there was not other robin sized/aged person who could.

    -He wasn't in this for the long haul

    -Robin was all he wanted to be and he worked hard for it.

    Those are part of his origin and base concept and are so critical to the character and a sizeable portion of readers. This is evidenced in the number of times him going back to Robin or retiring is brought up.

  8. #323
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    That origin and Base concept is at the core of the actual character. Dixon didn't change what was at the core.

    -Tim is the normal kid who wanted to help because batman needed help and there was not other robin sized/aged person who could.

    -He wasn't in this for the long haul

    -Robin was all he wanted to be and he worked hard for it.

    Those are part of his origin and base concept and are so critical to the character and a sizeable portion of readers. This is evidenced in the number of times him going back to Robin or retiring is brought up.
    These things arent the core, they are the crust. This is whats apparent at a glance, and what everyone can point out to when talking about the character, withount knowing too much about the character itself.

    The core of this character are his disposition to learn and grow, his constant self sacrifice and sense of responsability, his modesty, and the way he overcomes obstacles. These were the core elements Dixon gave to the kid that wanted to be Robin to help Batman.

    Tim Drake is a very humble and grounded character in DC, he has family problems, he has school problems, he has girl problems, and he often has to contend with things that are beyong his ability. These traits are not commonly seen in a world filled with superheroes that can shock the world merely by existing. And these traits were given to him by Dixon as well.

    Eventually the character grows beyond the crust, he is no longer a normal kid, he is no longer thinking of it as a hobby and is no longer Batmans sidekick. But the core of the character remains there, you still have a character that constantly learns, that sacrifices his own personal life and well being for others, that is still humble and cautious, he still has to use his brains to win the day.

  9. #324
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,452

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    ‘Red Robin’ name may have worked in Kingdom Come…and that’s where it should have stayed.
    Was the name "Red Robin" ever used within the original Kingdom Come mini-series itself? I thought it was just in supplementary material and later appearances? I recall Kingdom Come having a line of dialogue about Dick Grayson going back to his original identity, which would have been Robin.

    I always thought it was odd that people saw "Red Robin" as Tim coming into his own, since it was simply another identity borrowed from Dick Grayson and Jason Todd.

  10. #325
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    7,036

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    These things arent the core, they are the crust. This is whats apparent at a glance, and what everyone can point out to when talking about the character, withount knowing too much about the character itself.

    The core of this character are his disposition to learn and grow, his constant self sacrifice and sense of responsability, his modesty, and the way he overcomes obstacles. These were the core elements Dixon gave to the kid that wanted to be Robin to help Batman.

    Tim Drake is a very humble and grounded character in DC, he has family problems, he has school problems, he has girl problems, and he often has to contend with things that are beyong his ability. These traits are not commonly seen in a world filled with superheroes that can shock the world merely by existing. And these traits were given to him by Dixon as well.

    Eventually the character grows beyond the crust, he is no longer a normal kid, he is no longer thinking of it as a hobby and is no longer Batmans sidekick. But the core of the character remains there, you still have a character that constantly learns, that sacrifices his own personal life and well being for others, that is still humble and cautious, he still has to use his brains to win the day.
    You are the 1st Tim Drake fan that I've come across who believes that Robin was just a hobby to Tim at 1st. Usually they say how much it meant to him which was why he trained so hard.

    of the core attributes you list are just again generic character attributes found in superheroes/heroic character types and most half decent characters learn and grow. Characters evolve.

    The book Titans Companion contains an interview with Dixon. It might interest you to know that Dixon wasn't a Robin and rejected the Gig at 1st then when he accepted he had a meeting with Denny O'Neil and corporate [because Robin unlike most characters is considered a 'cooperate character' so lots of involvement from TPTB when handling the character] who gave him briefs on how to approach the character.

    Dixon had strict guide lines.

    He was told what mistakes to correct. He was directed to make the new Robin more relateable, easy to identify with [Family problems, relationship problems, school problems, often having to contend with issues that he struggles with]


    Make him likeable [humble, modest, more thoughtful, insecure]

    make him a character who was still learning [a character that learns and grows]


    "So that was the tact I took" these are all Dixon's words from the interview.

    Dixon elements are visible in 90% of heroes and characters. Those are just generic elements found in that character type and Im sure were in the original blueprints which was I didn't feel the need to list prior because they are like duh super hero traits. constant self sacrifice and sense of responsibility.

    In the book Titans Companion vol 2 where they talk about Tim's creation. They talked about looking at what works, what worked before and what didn't. I'd argue that those fall under created based on data gathered ie committee came up with with those.

    Those Dixon traits are traits found in most young heroes and characters. Relationship problems, family problems, contending with big problems that they struggle with. Heck take away the humble part and those traits apply to Damian.
    Those are simply board generic traits that apply to young heroes. take away the school issues and those are traits that apply to most heroes.

    Rebirth Tim is still the normal kid [just to be clear we are using normal as in Carrie Kelly. Non powered, not cult raised, not orphaned and living on the streets. Just regular generic white kid],
    He is still a sidekick to Batman and Tim never thought of this as a hobby. It meant so much to him that he went ahead and disrupted a grieving house hold. He was deathly serious about Robin even if he was only in it for the short haul.

    In ReBirth with his modified origin it means even more. By his own words "It has to be him". Those were the words current Tim said to Jor El.

    Dixon was directed by cooperate based on ideas generated by a committee ending up with a character who was designed to be likeable, relateable, identifiable. A character that ticked as many generic boxes as possible based on ideas that had worked before.
    A character that fixed the flaws and mistakes from the previous two based on data gathered by the committee.
    A character that really wanted to be Robin who designed to be the perfect robin by fixing what the committee felt didn't work in the previous two.

    Tim was a character designed by committee with intensive Data to be the ideal sidekick.

    Titans Companion, Volume 2
    (The Titans Companion #2)
    by Glen Cadigan (Goodreads Author) (Editor), Phil Jimenez, John Byrne
    Last edited by dietrich; 04-16-2019 at 12:32 AM. Reason: pesky error

  11. #326
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    You are the 1st Tim Drake fan that I've come across who believes that Robin was just a hobby to Tim at 1st. Usually they say how much it meant to him which was why he trained so hard.

    of the core attributes you list are just again generic character attributes found in superheroes/heroic character types and most half decent characters learn and grow. Characters evolve.

    The book Titans Companion contains an interview with Dixon. It might interest you to know that Dixon wasn't a Robin and rejected the Gig at 1st then when he accepted he had a meeting with Denny O'Neil and corporate [because Robin unlike most characters is considered a 'cooperate character' so lots of involvement from TPTB when handling the character] who gave him briefs on how to approach the character.

    Dixon had strict guide lines.

    He was told what mistakes to correct. He was directed to make the new Robin more relateable, easy to identify with [Family problems, relationship problems, school problems, often having to contend with issues that he struggles with]


    Make him likeable [humble, modest, more thoughtful, insecure]

    make him a character who was still learning [a character that learns and grows]


    "So that was the tact I took" these are all Dixon's words from the interview.

    Dixon elements are visible in 90% of heroes and characters. Those are just generic elements found in that character type and Im sure were in the original blueprints which was I didn't feel the need to list prior because they are like duh super hero traits. constant self sacrifice and sense of responsibility.

    In the book Titans Companion vol 2 where they talk about Tim's creation. They talked about looking at what works, what worked before and what didn't. I'd argue that those fall under created based on data gathered ie committee came up with with those.

    Those Dixon traits are traits found in most young heroes and characters. Relationship problems, family problems, contending with big problems that they struggle with. Heck take away the humble part and those traits apply to Damian.
    Those are simply board generic traits that apply to young heroes. take away the school issues and those are traits that apply to most heroes.

    Rebirth Tim is still the normal kid [just to be clear we are using normal as in Carrie Kelly. Non powered, not cult raised, not orphaned and living on the streets. Just regular generic white kid],
    He is still a sidekick to Batman and Tim never thought of this as a hobby. It meant so much to him that he went ahead and disrupted a grieving house hold. He was deathly serious about Robin even if he was only in it for the short haul.

    In ReBirth with his modified origin it means even more. By his own words "It has to be him". Those were the words current Tim said to Jor El.

    Dixon was directed by cooperate based on ideas generated by a committee ending up with a character who was designed to be likeable, relateable, identifiable. A character that ticked as many generic boxes as possible based on ideas that had worked before.
    A character that fixed the flaws and mistakes from the previous two based on data gathered by the committee.
    A character that really wanted to be Robin who designed to be the perfect robin by fixing what the committee felt didn't work in the previous two.

    Tim was a character designed by committee with intensive Data to be the ideal sidekick. That is his core.

    Titans Companion, Volume 2
    (The Titans Companion #2)
    by Glen Cadigan (Goodreads Author) (Editor), Phil Jimenez, John Byrne
    How can being an 'ideal sidekick' be the core of a character? No matter how you draw it up 'ideal sidekick' will be subjective no matter how you look at it. Honestly Dick was more of an ideal sidekick(early on) for the very fact he could be there for Bruce twenty four seven without worrying about outside family issues, since he actually lived with Bruce. Dick is adaptive, smart, a greater fighter than Tim, and followed orders as asked of him.

    At Tim's core is an individual who wasn't particularly shaped by tragedy or a life event that pushed him to seek the life of a crime fighter, but rather a want to do good not only by Batman, but for the people(later as he progressed) That was evident Pre-52 for the short time he wasn't Robin(when Steph took over briefly). It's definitely more on the generic side(at Tim's core), but honestly I think that can be said for all Robin's not named Damian or Jason if we're talking about their initial appearances as Robin, and what drove them.

  12. #327
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    7,036

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    How can being an 'ideal sidekick' be the core of a character? No matter how you draw it up 'ideal sidekick' will be subjective no matter how you look at it. Honestly Dick was more of an ideal sidekick(early on) for the very fact he could be there for Bruce twenty four seven without worrying about outside family issues, since he actually lived with Bruce. Dick is adaptive, smart, a greater fighter than Tim, and followed orders as asked of him.

    At Tim's core is an individual who wasn't particularly shaped by tragedy or a life event that pushed him to seek the life of a crime fighter, but rather a want to do good not only by Batman, but for the people(later as he progressed) That was evident Pre-52 for the short time he wasn't Robin(when Steph took over briefly). It's definitely more on the generic side(at Tim's core), but honestly I think that can be said for all Robin's not named Damian or Jason if we're talking about their initial appearances as Robin, and what drove them.
    Note I'm sure it's clear that line was just supposed to be repeating the Line I said before Tim was a character designed by committee with intensive Data to be the ideal sidekick. with an abandoned and unfinished statement at the end. In previous posts and in that post I went into detail what was Tim's core. That was a missed typo Krusty.

    @ Krusty I agree that ideal is subjective but for corporate it clearly wasn't and with the success Tim had as Robin before Batboys and Batsidekicks became a free market the gig was working.

    The goal was absolutely to make the ideal Robin and that goal continues to impact Tim's character today.

    It was a corporate committee with the corporate mandate Quote; " Jason got away from the creators and they could never get him back and make him sympathetic and easy to identify with. To correct the mistakes of the past".
    A committee with dollar signs in their eyes not driven by creativity or suddenly hit with inspiration [well money can be inspiring]
    Made up of amongst others people who in their words didn't want to be anywhere near the project [Marv Wolfman].
    The directive was the ideal Robin and a popular character [the most mass market appeal, least divisive] A Robin that would appeal to the LCD.

    One of the committee states in the an interview that Dick was too Boring and Dick and Jay was being groomed to be Batman. The goal was to create a character that was just Robin. Whose only goal was to be just Robin. Who only cared about being Robin.

    Interestingly the committee also wanted a Robin that would stand on his own.
    Strange for the ideal sidekick for batman though I guess their reasoning the ideal sidekick for Batman is also able to disappear when you want them to since Batman is also a loner [allegedly] and many creators prefer him this way.

    Aside from the guess in the above paragraph everything else in this post are the words of Marv Wolfman, Denny O'Neil, Chuck Dixon and Barbara Kesel nee Randall from interviews from the book Titans Companion.



    I have edited that pesky line now to stop further "misunderstandings" and hopefully there are no such pesky errors in this post.

  13. #328
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    7,036

    Default

    I honestly never saw the problem with Red Robin nor do I think it's a good idea to change his name yet again after 6 issues of his last one.

    2 robins isn't ideal but needs must. Right now what Tim needs is fixing. The name is the least of his problems.
    Tim is a character with a broken/iffy past and history. Right now according to Tec he was Robin and according to YJ he is Robin but his tenure covers pretty much the same period as Damian's and Duke's
    I know Batman likes working with young boys but 3 at the same time the Batman is an agent of NAMBLA gag comes to mind.

    I felt having Tim as Robin was DC trying to build back up his history. Give him actual stories as Robin that didn't have a question mark like pretty much all his stories do now since his deaging in Rebirth.

    As a Damian fan I'm glad he doesn't have to share the Robin role like he has had to share his tenure as sidekick with Duke since New52 but I can't help feeling that it would have been better for Tim if he never been named Robin for YJ or that they should have let them share for a few more issues before changing it again.

    Whatever the new name I hope it's a long long long time before we have to revisit the Tim Drake and new identity again.
    Last edited by dietrich; 04-16-2019 at 12:55 AM.

  14. #329
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Note I'm sure it's clear that line was just supposed to be repeating the Line I said before Tim was a character designed by committee with intensive Data to be the ideal sidekick. with an abandoned and unfinished statement at the end. In previous posts and in that post I went into detail what was Tim's core. That was a missed typo Krusty.

    @ Krusty I agree that ideal is subjective but for corporate it clearly wasn't and with the success Tim had as Robin before Batboys and Batsidekicks became a free market the gig was working.

    The goal was absolutely to make the ideal Robin and that goal continues to impact Tim's character today.

    It was a corporate committee with the corporate mandate Quote; " Jason got away from the creators and they could never get him back and make him sympathetic and easy to identify with. To correct the mistakes of the past".
    A committee with dollar signs in their eyes not driven by creativity or suddenly hit with inspiration [well money can be inspiring]
    Made up of amongst others people who in their words didn't want to be anywhere near the project [Marv Wolfman].
    The directive was the ideal Robin and a popular character [the most mass market appeal, least divisive] A Robin that would appeal to the LCD.

    One of the committee states in the an interview that Dick was too Boring and Dick and Jay was being groomed to be Batman. The goal was to create a character that was just Robin. Whose only goal was to be just Robin. Who only cared about being Robin.

    Interestingly the committee also wanted a Robin that would stand on his own.
    Strange for the ideal sidekick for batman though I guess their reasoning the ideal sidekick for Batman is also able to disappear when you want them to since Batman is also a loner [allegedly] and many creators prefer him this way.

    Aside from the guess in the above paragraph everything else in this post are the words of Marv Wolfman, Denny O'Neil, Chuck Dixon and Barbara Kesel nee Randall from interviews from the book Titans Companion.



    I have edited that pesky line now to stop further "misunderstandings" and hopefully there are no such pesky errors in this post.
    That was completely true at the beginning. Tim was a character created whose only goal was to remain Robin, his main interest being there to do good and help Batman. But that clearly changed over time. This change was first seen as I refereed to before when Steph took over as Robin briefly. It would have been between Robin issues 129-131, can' remember which issue exactly. It started with the shooting at Tim's school, all the way up to the point when he put the mask back on. His words were "It doesn't just feel good, it feels right" after suiting up taking down a small group of thugs. At that point I'd say his character evolved from what he originally was.

    At his core is simply someone who wants to do good. That is a consistent that remained with the character throughout his trials that changed him. Wanting to be at Batman's side for what he feels needs to be done was something Tim ultimately moved past Pre-52, so I wouldn't say that is a defining core trait like it would have been when he started.

  15. #330
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    I honestly never saw the problem with Red Robin nor do I think it's a good idea to change his name yet again after 6 issues of his last one.

    2 robins isn't ideal but needs must. Right now what Tim needs is fixing. The name is the least of his problems.
    Tim is a character with a broken/iffy past and history. Right now according to Tec he was Robin and according to YJ he is Robin but his tenure covers pretty much the same period as Damian's and Duke's
    I know Batman likes working with young boys but 3 at the same time the Batman is an agent of NAMBLA gag comes to mind.

    I felt having Tim as Robin was DC trying to build back up his history. Give him actual stories as Robin that didn't have a question mark like pretty much all his stories do now since his deaging in Rebirth.

    As a Damian fan I'm glad he doesn't have to share the Robin role like he has had to share his tenure as sidekick with Duke since New52 but I can't help feeling that it would have been better for Tim if he never been named Robin for YJ or that they should have let them share for a few more issues before changing it again.

    Whatever the new name I hope it's a long long long time before we have to revisit the Tim Drake and new identity again.
    I agree, Tim does need fixing due to what the reboot did to him. He and Dick out of the Robin's got specifically hit hard. Big difference was, Dick got a solo to develop his new story while Tim was tossed into a team book as a generic Robin with little to no background. Even now I can't really say what drives or motivates current Tim, he just doesn't have the history Pre-52 Tim to grasp what he truly is.

    Hard disagree on the later. There should only be one Robin, and that Robin should be Damian. Tim should have never been tossed back into the Robin role honestly. A name change for Tim should be a story centered on his own reasoning for wanting to make a change, and should have a foreseeable lasting purpose moving forward. This was not the case with the Pre-52, Tim's transition to Red Robin was a small element to the big story that was Batman(Dick) and Robin(Damian). He was basically given a role for what was going on at the time if that makes any sense. While it didn't turn out horrible, it could have worked out even better if certain things had been done. Regardless, it is time Tim moves on from Robin.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •