Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2019

[Fergus]

The general public knows Robin as Batman's young sidekick, a less tortured, more lighthearted character than his mentor.

The idea of Robin being Batman's literal son, and a character who's moody, tortured, egotistical and has a history of killing, is a foreign concept to the general public's understanding of who Robin is.

I really don't understand why DC has stuck with this premise for so long. Damian Wayne clearly has enough going on, enough hooks, to be established as a unique character. Tim Drake kind of doesn't, because he was built specifically to be the new Robin, after learning from the mistakes they made with the previous version (Jason). His entire time as Red Robin it was like, he's Robin... but not? He's Robin... but he doesn't get to interact with Batman very much? It's weird, keeping the character around after removing the reason for the character's existence, but failing to replace it with anything truly unique and compelling in its own right.

I get the feeling DC is trying to change what the general perception of Robin is. Dick and Damian are arguably the most widely known Robins along with Jason. 2 of those are moody, have a history of killing and are tortured.
Titans gave us a Robin who is moody, hits hard and isn't so happy go lucky. Much like batman maybe DC felt it was time for Robin to evolve. After the most important thing about Robin isn't his personality.

[Lee]

I get the feeling DC is trying to change what the general perception of Robin is.

I think it's a poor idea. I don't see what's gained from doing that, from muddying the waters with one of their best known characters. DC desperately wants the general public to recognise their characters the same way they recognise Marvel's characters. So why muddy the waters with one of their few characters who already IS recognisable to the general public?

[Fergus]

I think it's a poor idea. I don't see what's gained from doing that, from muddying the waters with one of their best known characters. DC desperately wants the general public to recognise their characters the same way they recognise Marvel's characters. So why muddy the waters with one of their few characters who already IS recognisable to the general public?

Robin is still recognisable. Everyone knows that Robin is Batman's sidekick.A young hero that hasn't changed. Their personality and character has changed just like the costume. Moving with trends.
Damian is the 2nd most adapted Robin after Dick so to today's youth Robin is Damian Wayne.
My Robin was Dick but my Daughter her pals and her age mates know Robin as Damian Wayne. they know Robin as someone who is the Son of Batman, uses a sword and has a scowl.
This has been the case for over 10 years now.

Robin wasn't created to be a lighter side to Batman or to be less moody to Batman's tortured soul. In story he was created to save a young boys life and give him purpose which is exactly what it's doing with Damian.
In real world Robin was created as someone for Batman to exposition to and to be an audience stand in. That might not be so necessary anymore. the readers are far more sophisticated, I don't know how many kids want to be Robin anymore. That function might just be outdated these days.

DC must feel Damian as Robin is working. Fans on here don't seem to have much support for tim the Robin you recognise to carry on being Robin. It just feels like a few fans clinging on to nostalgia. So I just don't don't see that much proof that the public or even comic fans have an issue recognising Robin.

Robin is Batman's partner and as we've seen from titles like Deathstroke, The Shadow/Batman and Batman/TMNT 1 and 2 [That's 3 different writers in Rebirth alone] Damian works perfectly with Batman in the regular B&R setup as any other Robin so Robin. Personality is subjective and isn't what the general audience thinks of 1st when they think of Robin

[Konja7]

Robin wasn't created to be a lighter side to Batman or to be less moody to Batman's tortured soul. In story he was created to save a young boys life and give him purpose which is exactly what it's doing with Damian.
In real world Robin was created as someone for Batman to exposition to and to be an audience stand in. That might not be so necessary anymore. the readers are far more sophisticated, I don't know how many kids want to be Robin anymore. That function might just be outdated these days.

That function is outdated for comics, because there is almost no kids or young audience reading comics now.

A character created as stand in for the audience is still used in other media.

[Blue22]

RedWing isn't something far removed from Robin, Dick or Jason. It's literally meshing the 1st and last part of their independent hero names together. Though I must admit i like that name.

Hey, I'll take a mash-up of Jason and Dick's names over some variation of Robin or him just...straight up using someone else's name.

Still kinda a hand-me-down but also still his own thing. It works better than any other proposed name I've heard so far.

[Konja7]

Maybe not Redbird cuz Damian had that first and there's just something....really disrespectful about making your character take their little brother's hand-me-downs XD

But Redwing....I actually like that.

In fact, I mentioned Redbird, because Tim had a red vehicle, which he called Redbird in Pre-Flashpoint.

This happened before Damian appear. So, Tim used the name first.

[Lee]

Robin is still recognisable. Everyone knows that Robin is Batman's sidekick.A young hero that hasn't changed. Their personality and character has changed just like the costume. Moving with trends.
Damian is the 2nd most adapted Robin after Dick so to today's youth Robin is Damian Wayne.
My Robin was Dick but my Daughter her pals and her age mates know Robin as Damian Wayne. they know Robin as someone who is the Son of Batman, uses a sword and has a scowl.
This has been the case for over 10 years now.

I'm sure that's true for some people, but for the most part the TV shows and merchandise skew towards a more traditional Robin. Damian Wayne does exist outside of the comic books, but he hasn't become the default depiction of Robin. Most of the casual audience would be surprised to hear that Robin is Batman's son, who carries a sword and scowls. People were surprised when a white actor was cast in the Green Lantern movie.

DC puts themselves in this position, and continue to do so, whenever they create two disparate versions of the same character, and try to keep them both active at the same time.

So DC Comics has two Robins right now - a more traditional version in Tim, and a less traditional version in Damian. It's just weird to me that they're sticking with the latter, rather than creating a more consistent multimedia brand identity for the character. Damian is a strong enough character concept to survive without the Robin identity. Tim Drake kind of isn't, because he was never designed to be anything else. The two most obvious post-Robin avenues have already been taken. Batman's former sidekick who "graduated" and went his own way as a hero - that's Nightwing. Batman's former sidekick who went down a dark path, broke Batman's code and became a gun-wielding murderous vigilante - that's Red Hood.

So what's to be done with Tim Drake at this point? All these (half recycled) names being suggested - Red Robin, Redwing, Redbird, Flamebird - just scream "Brand X Robin". But beyond the name, what are Tim's character hooks going to be? His unique selling point? What's the high concept of the character?

Maybe he'll just be kept to the Young Justice book, where he serves a purpose just fine. But within the Batman Universe, and the larger DC Universe, I'm really not sure how he can be kept relevant without implementing some drastic changes - but that runs the risk of the changes being so drastic that they alienate the character's current fanbase.

[Fergus]

I'm sure that's true for some people, but for the most part the TV shows and merchandise skew towards a more traditional Robin. Damian Wayne does exist outside of the comic books, but he hasn't become the default depiction of Robin. Most of the casual audience would be surprised to hear that Robin is Batman's son, who carries a sword and scowls. People were surprised when a white actor was cast in the Green Lantern movie.

DC puts themselves in this position, and continue to do so, whenever they create two disparate versions of the same character, and try to keep them both active at the same time.

So DC Comics has two Robins right now - a more traditional version in Tim, and a less traditional version in Damian. It's just weird to me that they're sticking with the latter, rather than creating a more consistent multimedia brand identity for the character. Damian is a strong enough character concept to survive without the Robin identity. Tim Drake kind of isn't, because he was never designed to be anything else. The two most obvious post-Robin avenues have already been taken. Batman's former sidekick who "graduated" and went his own way as a hero - that's Nightwing. Batman's former sidekick who went down a dark path, broke Batman's code and became a gun-wielding murderous vigilante - that's Red Hood.

So what's to be done with Tim Drake at this point? All these (half recycled) names being suggested - Red Robin, Redwing, Redbird, Flamebird - just scream "Brand X Robin". But beyond the name, what are Tim's character hooks going to be? His unique selling point? What's the high concept of the character?

Maybe he'll just be kept to the Young Justice book, where he serves a purpose just fine. But within the Batman Universe, and the larger DC Universe, I'm really not sure how he can be kept relevant without implementing some drastic changes - but that runs the risk of the changes being so drastic that they alienate the character's current fanbase.

Damian is Robin in the movies, Games, just joined DCSHG and just Joined YJ. The Titans TV Show Robin is closer to Damian than traditional Robin so it does appear that WB/DC is already creating a more consistent multimedia brand identity for the character.

I have only ever come across casuals wonder why Robin is Damian and that's when Damian was introduced in DCSHG. Casuals were wondering how come it wasn't Dick since the rest of the TT where already present in the show so they expected the only other Robin they were used to be introduced.

The Games and movies casuals don't ever complain about Robin. Comic fans do because they know about Tim something the casuals don't. So the general public wasn't surprised when Damian was introduced in outside media years ago like they did with GL so we are past that.
The comic fans are the only ones who have a problem and only a very very small percent. I don't think this is an issue.

I do see what you mean about what's to be done about Tim. Personally I don't see what's wrong with him just being in YJ. That's better than a lot of characters have and the same as some very popular characters have. Jason is far more popular than Tim and he has the Outlaws, Dick has Nightwing and Damian soon will be down to just TT. A new identity doesn't mean exclusion from the Batbooks just like Robin doesn't mean inclusion in the Batbooks. Damian is Robin but has been under management by the Superman office since the new 52.

[Blue22]

In fact, I mentioned Redbird, because Tim had a red vehicle, which he called Redbird in Pre-Flashpoint.

This happened before Damian appear. So, Tim used the name first.

Ah. I stand corrected then

Still think Redwing sounds cooler though.

Damian is Robin in the movies, Games, just joined DCSHG and just Joined YJ. The Titans TV Show Robin is closer to Damian than traditional Robin so it does appear that WB/DC is already creating a more consistent multimedia brand identity for the character.

He debuted in YJ as an infant. Unless they're planning a BIG time skip next season, I think it's safe to say Tim's position as the Robin of that universe is secure for a while. As for the Titans show....aside from him being more violent than most versions of the character (just like everyone in that show) I'm not really seeing any of Damian in their portrayal of Dick. The show is a darker, grittier take on the DC universe (and does it better than Zack Snyder could ever dream of doing) with darker, grittier takes on the characters that they adapt. But, for the most part, they still at least somewhat feel like those characters. Personality-wise, the Dick in that show is nothing like Damian. Not even close enough to make an accurate comparison between the two. If anyone other than Dick, I'd say he feels closer to Tim. But that's really only because they've been putting a lot of emphasis on his detective skills, which is something Tim's more known for than any other Robin.

[Fergus]

Ah. I stand corrected then

Still think Redwing sounds cooler though.



He debuted in YJ as an infant. Unless they're planning a BIG time skip next season, I think it's safe to say Tim's position as the Robin of that universe is secure for a while. As for the Titans show....aside from him being more violent than most versions of the character (just like everyone in that show) I'm not really seeing any of Damian in their portrayal of Dick. The show is a darker, grittier take on the DC universe (and does it better than Zack Snyder could ever dream of doing) with darker, grittier takes on the characters that they adapt. But, for the most part, they still at least somewhat feel like those characters. Personality-wise, the Dick in that show is nothing like Damian. Not even close enough to make an accurate comparison between the two. If anyone other than Dick, I'd say he feels closer to Tim. But that's really only because they've been putting a lot of emphasis on his detective skills, which is something Tim's more known for than any other Robin.

Dick on Titans isn't like Damian [ no one here is saying that] and all Robins are detectives especially Tim and Damian but that's not really the point we are discussing. the point we are discussing is why DC is going for the darker, more violent, more moody, more tortured version of Robin.
Which the Titans Robin is. As you said he is more violent and his world is darker. That robin is closest to Dick Grayson. Dick isn't and wasn't all sunshine or Burt Ward.

YJ is going for a time skip. Greg Wiessman confirmed this on Reddit saying that Time skips is what the show is known for and that they were keen to mature and move on certain cast members. So if that doesn't say prepare for a huge time skip I don't know what does.

[dietrich]

The reality is that sooner or later Tim would have had to graduate the Robin role just like Damian will someday. Robin isn't like a Nightwing or Red Hood.

DC could easily have had 2 Robins. DC has more than one choice of a traditional Robin with Duke when Damian was dead and they choose against it and again they appear to have chosen not to go traditional route [we don't yet know till the issue drops] What Robin represents to the general audience is what DC want's it to because they know what direction they want to move in.

Point is Tim isn't the Ist Robin to be replaced and he's not going to the last.

[Blue22]

Dick on Titans isn't like Damian [ no one here is saying that]

When you start your post talking about Damian in other mediums and finish it with a statement that sounds like you're saying the Titans show is making Dick closer to Damian because both characters are dark. You can't fault me for thinking that's a bit of a stretch.

and all Robins are detectives especially Tim and Damian

Of course they're all detectives, they were trained by Batman. But Tim's the one who's always been kinda known as "the smart Robin", the one whose skills as a detective were brought to the forefront more than the others (to the point where said skills were how he became Robin in the first place). But that connection to Titans' Dick was more me being facetious than anything else.

YJ is going for a time skip. Greg Wiessman confirmed this on Reddit saying that Time skips is what the show is known for and that they were keen to mature and move on certain cast members. So if that doesn't say prepare for a huge time skip I don't know what does.

Now THAT I did not know. Did he give any indicator of how long said skip would be? Because a whole ten years (the amount of time we'd probably need for Damian to take the Robin spot from Tim) seems really excessive.

[Lee]

As for the Titans show....aside from him being more violent than most versions of the character (just like everyone in that show) I'm not really seeing any of Damian in their portrayal of Dick. The show is a darker, grittier take on the DC universe (and does it better than Zack Snyder could ever dream of doing) with darker, grittier takes on the characters that they adapt. But, for the most part, they still at least somewhat feel like those characters. Personality-wise, the Dick in that show is nothing like Damian. Not even close enough to make an accurate comparison between the two.

Right. From what I've seen, in that show even Dove is slicing people up. Isn't part of the premise of the show that Robin thinks Batman has gone too far? That's consistent with Robin being the lighter, more down to earth of the two. A very different premise from Robin being a violent aristocratic ninja kid who Batman has to keep in check.

If anyone other than Dick, I'd say he feels closer to Tim. But that's really only because they've been putting a lot of emphasis on his detective skills, which is something Tim's more known for than any other Robin.

That's kind of how it's been since the '90s. The adaptations tended not to worry about the distinctions between Dick or Tim, since they were both essentially the same character of Robin. They just used the best bits. Dick Grayson has the best, most usable origin, so they use that. Tim Drake has a more contemporary costume, so they use that. When the Teen Titans cartoon was airing, there was a big debate in the fandom about whether Robin was Dick or Tim. Ultimately, it didn't matter, they were interchangeable. The broad strokes are the same, and it's the broad strokes that the adaptations build from.

[Fergus]

When you start your post talking about Damian in other mediums and finish it with a statement that sounds like you're saying the Titans show is making Dick closer to Damian because both characters are dark. You can't fault me for thinking that's a bit of a stretch.



Of course they're all detectives, they were trained by Batman. But Tim's the one who's always been kinda known as "the smart Robin", the one whose skills as a detective were brought to the forefront more than the others (to the point where said skills were how he became Robin in the first place). But that connection to Titans' Dick was more me being facetious than anything else.



Now THAT I did not know. Did he give any indicator of how long said skip would be? Because a whole ten years (the amount of time we'd probably need for Damian to take the Robin spot from Tim) seems really excessive.

That post about the multimedia wasn't the start of our discussion though.

It'll be pretty easy to find the thread on Reddit it was from his recent AMA.

My guess is that since Jon Kent is already a toddler [about 3yrs old] and is canonically younger than Damian[ 10 to Damain's 13] before the Bendis shenanigans we are not looking at 10 years. we are looking at much less. Damian also genetically is fast aged.

I wouldn't put it past season 4 giving us a new Robin but even if it doesn't the point is that they are moving in that direction.
The comics, the Tv show's, the animated movies and games all have a version of Robin that isn't the punning pg Robin.
And this started with Under The Red Hood. Jason has a rep as a darker Robin and he is well known.

[Blue22]

That's kind of how it's been since the '90s. The adaptations tended not to worry about the distinctions between Dick or Tim, since they were both essentially the same character of Robin. They just used the best bits. Dick Grayson has the best, most usable origin, so they use that. Tim Drake has a more contemporary costume, so they use that. When the Teen Titans cartoon was airing, there was a big debate in the fandom about whether Robin was Dick or Tim. Ultimately, it didn't matter, they were interchangeable. The broad strokes are the same, and it's the broad strokes that the adaptations build from.

I always thought it was funny how that Robin kinda had elements of the first three all rolled into one. Dick's name, origin, relationship with Starfire, and role as the leader of a NTT-esque team. Tim's intelligence, costume, and (in some cases) borderline obsessive behavior. And Jason's temper XD

The fact that the show was airing at the same time as DCAU shows (where Tim was Robin and was confirmed to be "with the Titans") REALLY didn't help in the whole "Is this Dick or Tim?" debate. Now that we know it is Dick, I do wish we could have actually seen the DCAU Titans.