Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2019

[scary harpy]

I see a great benefit in ditching the Robin/Red Robin name. I see a benefit in Young Justice staying on Gemworld.

Tim needs a fresh start to become the character he can be (and once was).

On the Bat-message boards, too many are saying that Gotham is overcrowded with vigilantes. Well, Gemworld isn’t.

Let YJ build lives on a world that might need their help…as opposed to Earth where they are Super Hero Team Twelve.

[Arsenal]

The team ain’t staying in Gem World. Solicits basically confirmed it.

[josai21]

Thinkin on solicits...
This should be fun:


YOUNG JUSTICE #7
written by BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS
art and cover by JOHN TIMMS
variant cover by RILEY ROSSMO
Young Justice—lost in the Multiverse! After the explosive conclusion to their Gemworld adventure, the team is having a tough time finding their way back to their Earth. No, we can’t tell you where they end up, but rest assured, you will be surprised! But as exciting as all that is, we have bigger problems to deal with as Tim Drake is about to do something he has only done...lots of times before. He is about to announce his new alias...a new superhero name. A Young Justice name. And this time, it’s permanent. Like, forever.

[Frontier]

I'm all for Tim getting a new, good, codename but I have hard time believing a new one will suddenly stick this time around.

[Mataza]

I'm all for Tim getting a new, good, codename but I have hard time believing a new one will suddenly stick this time around.

Secret and Spoiler does have a ring to it tho. And im convinced its going to be Secret.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

Secret and Spoiler does have a ring to it tho. And im convinced its going to be Secret.

The Secret was my first thought as well.

[scary harpy]

Thinkin on solicits...
This should be fun:


YOUNG JUSTICE #7
written by BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS
art and cover by JOHN TIMMS
variant cover by RILEY ROSSMO
Young Justice—lost in the Multiverse! After the explosive conclusion to their Gemworld adventure, the team is having a tough time finding their way back to their Earth. No, we can’t tell you where they end up, but rest assured, you will be surprised! But as exciting as all that is, we have bigger problems to deal with as Tim Drake is about to do something he has only done...lots of times before. He is about to announce his new alias...a new superhero name. A Young Justice name. And this time, it’s permanent. Like, forever.

Secret and Spoiler does have a ring to it tho. And im convinced its going to be Secret.

The Secret was my first thought as well.

I don't know what made you think of Secret...but it is a Young Justice name.

Secret and Spoiler does have ring to it.

I wonder if he will have a fog theme. Hmmm.

[Rac7d*]

Secret and Spoiler does have a ring to it tho. And im convinced its going to be Secret.

secret already exist
greta hayes

[scary harpy]

secret already exist
greta hayes

I don't think she does anymore.

If she returns, she can always be called Greta or 'Suzie'.

[Mataza]

You are the 1st Tim Drake fan that I've come across who believes that Robin was just a hobby to Tim at 1st. Usually they say how much it meant to him which was why he trained so hard.

Hobby doesnt mean he was less passionate, just that the goal at first was different. Theres an issue before his solo in which he writes a letter to his comatose father, where he talks at lenght about this, its a great issue, you should read it.

of the core attributes you list are just again generic character attributes found in superheroes/heroic character types and most half decent characters learn and grow. Characters evolve.

Core attributes never change, they may be generic at a glance, but a bunch of them form a personality. Thats the reason they are the core of a character, they are elements that define them, not necesarily that are unique to them.

The book Titans Companion contains an interview with Dixon. It might interest you to know that Dixon wasn't a Robin and rejected the Gig at 1st then when he accepted he had a meeting with Denny O'Neil and corporate [because Robin unlike most characters is considered a 'cooperate character' so lots of involvement from TPTB when handling the character] who gave him briefs on how to approach the character.

Yep i knew.

He was told what mistakes to correct. He was directed to make the new Robin more relateable, easy to identify with [Family problems, relationship problems, school problems, often having to contend with issues that he struggles with]


Make him likeable [humble, modest, more thoughtful, insecure]

make him a character who was still learning [a character that learns and grows]

Yet these things didnt define the character. He lost his family, still the same character, he became more experienced, more confident and cocky and was still the same character.
Him being a character that grows tho, sets him appart from pretty much every other character in DC, most of them are unchanging for decades.

Dixon elements are visible in 90% of heroes and characters. Those are just generic elements found in that character type and Im sure were in the original blueprints which was I didn't feel the need to list prior because they are like duh super hero traits. constant self sacrifice and sense of responsibility.

Sense of responsability on Kon? or Bart? Tims sense of responsability was a throwback, heroes in the 80s and 90s had very different core values.
Self sacrifice of personal life isnt an element for 90% of the characters in DC, because they barely have a personal life. Maybe Kara dealt with some of it, but none of the Batgirls did, none of the other Robins did, few of the titans did, few in the justice league did.

In the book Titans Companion vol 2 where they talk about Tim's creation. They talked about looking at what works, what worked before and what didn't. I'd argue that those fall under created based on data gathered ie committee came up with with those.

Yeah, id argue every character ever created had people talking about what works, what worked before and what does. Its bizarre that you think its worth pointing out, unless you are somehow trying to prove that Tim as a character is a souless creation. Which i think its your point, i also think its wrong and ive said why multiple times before.

Those Dixon traits are traits found in most young heroes and characters. Relationship problems, family problems, contending with big problems that they struggle with. Heck take away the humble part and those traits apply to Damian.

Not in the same sphere, Damian isnt relatable, his problems arent the same as any readers. He is incredibly wealthy, a murderer trained since he was born, with a grandfather that wants to take his body, and a mother that is playing games at global scale, a father that is too busy saving the world to take care of him would probably be his only relatable trait, and thats for the very few that have one with such inclinations.

Those are simply board generic traits that apply to young heroes. take away the school issues and those are traits that apply to most heroes.

Core traits are meant to be generic, you can have two different characters with the same core traits. I disagree on being the ones i listed being common to most heroes tho.
Starfire, Raven, or beast boy dont fit into any of these for example. Their struggles are different, and the way they resolve them is fundamentally different.

Rebirth Tim is still the normal kid [just to be clear we are using normal as in Carrie Kelly. Non powered, not cult raised, not orphaned and living on the streets. Just regular generic white kid],
He is still a sidekick to Batman and Tim never thought of this as a hobby. It meant so much to him that he went ahead and disrupted a grieving house hold. He was deathly serious about Robin even if he was only in it for the short haul.

Nope, Tim wanted to save a Batman that was clearly self destructing by bringing back Dick Grayson as Robin. When that didnt work, because Dick and Bruce couldnt work together, because Bruce insisted on leading and Dick insisted on being his own man. Then Dick pushed Tim on the role.
Tim went with the intention to help, becoming Robin was never the plan.
Also you can be serious about a hobby, it was still a hobby, he was still planning to stop when the problem solved itself. His passion for justice and the mission came later.
Heck, he half gave up on being Robin during the training because he thought he didnt deserve it, he was just content with being on the cave and helping Batman.

In ReBirth with his modified origin it means even more. By his own words "It has to be him". Those were the words current Tim said to Jor El.

You got it wrong. This Tim has been doing this for years, he has realized that there are things that he can do that nobody else can, and that despite him wanting to quit and have a normal life, the crushing weight of his responsabilities made him push that idea aside. Part of his arc in Tynions Tec is him realizing the Batman needs him, the people need him, and that having a normal life just isnt a priority.
I didnt like how it was done tho, i dont like Tynions execution, i think nicieza did a much better job with the exact same idea. It felt more natural too.

Dixon was directed by cooperate based on ideas generated by a committee ending up with a character who was designed to be likeable, relateable, identifiable. A character that ticked as many generic boxes as possible based on ideas that had worked before.

There are no original characters bro. Or do you think Damian wasnt designed with roughly the same idea in mind. They went with the tsundere route because it is proven that these kind of characters are likable. There have been studies, people brains react positively to characters that start out with a bad disposition but grow into a good one, it tickles peoples brains. Theres a reason the archetype is so popular in japan.

Tim was a character designed by committee with intensive Data to be the ideal sidekick.

Nope, he was designed to be a character that could be accepted, after the royal **** up that was jason they couldnt afford another botched Robin, the IP is too valuable for that.
Tim embodies a lot of elements of the hero journey, that funnily enough, very few DC characters do.

[Rac7d*]

I don't think she does anymore.

If she returns, she can always be called Greta or 'Suzie'.

Tim not gonna prgress with a used identity, thats the issue he is in now

[dietrich]

@Mataza

1) Tim and Damian are the two robin's who I've read pretty much all their solo's and Batman stories arcs so while I don't recall the issue you are talking about Tim is a character that routinely lied to his folks so that likely just was taken for another lie but more importantly it's not what a member of the committee said. We know that Robin was everything to Tim because Marv told us.

2) Characters evolve is a response to your Tim is a character that that grew. All Bat family members have grown and evolved. Learning and growing is an element that is common in characters that young/green as they grow. However the point of relevance here is that it that core element was by committee.

3)- Then the heck are you making me read long posts and type out reply's for when you know who was involved in the committee and the process?

4) He lost some elements [well one family] and retained some elements of the character created by the committee. I don't see how this disproves the Tim was a character created by committee at the core. You think Tim is still the same? You know what never mind that's not the point.

5)Kon and Bart aren't the only young characters in comics and you seem to be moving away from the point. Those are thing that are central to Tim that were mandated and decided by committee.

6)You shouldn't assume Mataza. There is a difference between a personal character like Damian and a corporate character like Tim.
Damian was an idea that the writer came up because they had a story to tell and he pitched the idea to DC [fun fact Tomasi who was one of the editors for the batoffice hated the idea of a son for Batman initially]

Tim was an idea that Corporate came up with and then they started pitching the ideas to multiple writers to see who would accept the gig. Marv talks about the difference in the creation of personal characters like Starfire and Raven compared to a corporate one like Tim in the book I've already referenced so much. and in it he mentions that just because a character is a corporate character doesn't mean you still don't have stakes or care for the product. You still want them to be popular. So no I never said Tim is a soulless creation.

I keep pointing it out because THAT IS WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT. That origin and Base concept is at the core of the actual character was created by comittee with intensive data to be the ideal sidekick


Dixon had strict guide lines.

He was told what mistakes to correct. He was directed to make the new Robin more relateable, easy to identify with [Family problems, relationship problems, school problems, often having to contend with issues that he struggles with]


Make him likeable [humble, modest, more thoughtful, insecure]

make him a character who was still learning [a character that learns and grows]


"So that was the tact I took" these are all Dixon's words from the interview.

7) I wrote a huge piece that's available on the old Damian thread about why i love Damian. How much I can relate to him and how much he inspires me and my work [I work with kids with a history of abuse, neglect and ASBO's [anti social behaviour court orders]] Even outside of my job I wrote how I can relate to Damian on a personal level. From heavy expectations due to impressive parents, struggling and failing to meet those expectations, struggling against preconceived notions, learning to fit into a world different from one you are used to. I could go on.

I'm not incredibly wealthy, a murderer trained since he was born, with a grandfather that wants to take his body, and a mother that is playing games at global scale but he is still the Robin I relate to the most. Not only that. Damian is the Robin I'm must inspired by as much as a grown man can be inspired by a 13yr old. Relateable is personal and those thing's you mention don't have to be factors in my life for me to relate to character.

8) they might not be to Star and Raven but they are to Damian, Duke, Peter Parker, Carrie Kelly etc I always thought it was funny they killed off Tim's parents because Dixon gave that as the thing that made Tim so interesting and wolfman gave tim a family for the sole purpose of making him more interesting than Dick.

9) We'll let the words of Marv Wolfman decide. In his words Tim really wanted to be Robin. Even in the original origin when he goes to the family when you look at his dialogue while he is making his case he makes a case for his suitability for the role by dropping little hints that shows how he has the skills or how he can do it. It's a straight up sales pitch. But again my interpretation doesn't matter since Wolfman tells us.

10) I'm just straight up quoting his words back to you and in story Batman didn't get lighter because he was still as brutal in the decades Tim was by his side. The time's when batman is in real problems he calls to Dick. We even find out in Rebirth that they have a tradition for every time Bruce is going on an away mission or a particularly dangerous mission.

11) I said anything about original characters. I said Tim was created by committee.
Doesn't matter how people react to tsundere's or even if Damian is a tsundere [though he wouldn't be the 1st Wayne to exhibit traits that resemble what we now know as the tsundere which fyi isn't what a tsundere really is. Damn you light novels] Damian was a personal character created to die so not a committee character.

12)
designed to be a character that could be accepted doesn't mean Tim wasn't a character designed by committee with intensive Data to be the ideal sidekick.

Sometimes Royals fuckups turn into beautiful works of art that captures a lot of hearts and become widely popular. Even more so than those designed by committee with intensive Data to be the ideal sidekicks that embody lots of elements of the heroes journey

And factually by Nope you mean Yep because we have and i have provided more than enough evidence to show that Tim was indeed created by a committee based on intensive data or are calling Marv Wolfman, Denny O'neil, Neal Adams, Chuck Dixon and Barbara Kesel liars?

[Konja7]

And factually by Nope you mean Yep because we have and i have provided more than enough evidence to show that Tim was indeed created by a committee based on intensive data or are calling Marv Wolfman, Denny O'neil, Neal Adams, Chuck Dixon and Barbara Kesel liars?

I think no one is denying this.

The problem is that the way you express yourself makes it sound like this kind of creation is something bad (I don't see a problem) or that it condemns the character in the future.

At the end of Pre-New52, Tim had changed a lot from the regular and relatable guy he was at his creation. Many said that Tim was a clone of Batman, which is very different from this original conception.


PS: I really like Tim as Red Robin in Pre-New52.

[scary harpy]

Tim not gonna prgress with a used identity, thats the issue he is in now

Robin, Red Robin, Nightwing and Red Hood are all used identities.

[dietrich]

I think no one is denying this.

The problem is that the way you express yourself makes it sound like this kind of creation is something bad (I don't see a problem) or that it condemns the character in the future.

At the end of Pre-New52, Tim had changed a lot from the regular and relatable guy he was at his creation. Many said that Tim was a clone of Batman, which is very different from this original conception.


PS: I really like Tim as Red Robin in Pre-New52.

To be fair my inital comment was Perhaps if Tim Drake was created to be more than just Robin we wouldn't be here. so I am saying that it might be a contributing factor that condemns the character in the future.

This isn't factual just my opinion.
RR was the 1st time I enjoyed Tim but we already have Batman, a mini batman and a batmantype/spy so that angle is covered.

As someone who doesn't really care for the character and never understood his appeal personally. I'm just basing my judgement/assessment on the things I've seen his fans express a wish for, claim to love about him and what they miss most about new Tim.

The greater majority that I've observed online seem to be wrapped up in nostalgia and who Tim was.
Ever since I got into comics there's been non stop threads and debates with Tim fans wanting him to go backwards.

There are blogs right now cursing bendis for this name change using that Tim only ever wanted to be Robin argument.

Granted it's a small sample size and likes are subjective but there is a recurring theme when it comes to Tim.