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  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Robin, Red Robin, Nightwing and Red Hood are all used identities.
    Nightwing - after being told the legends by superman, one of his idols
    Redhood - the previous alias of his killer

    their is meaning in taking those names, so why would Tim take on secret, were they particularly close, in love what does she mean to him

  2. #347
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    To be fair my inital comment was Perhaps if Tim Drake was created to be more than just Robin we wouldn't be here. so I am saying that it might be a contributing factor that condemns the character in the future.

    This isn't factual just my opinion.
    Has far less to do with that and more to do with the fact how much Tim lost going into the New 52, and didn't get much room for opportunity to back or retool what he did lose. Like Tim, Dick lost a lot with the reboot(even more I'd say) let's say for example; what if Dick didn't get a solo going into the New 52 and only appeared in a 'Titans' title, and when turning up in Bat family events he only showed up in three to four panels? At least that was the case for Tim until Batman Eternal.

    Tim's current predicament has nothing to do with what is at his core, or his origin even. Being featured in mainly large teams books leaves small room for development. We saw how things went for Dick in Titans before 'Ric', definitely not the best version of the character, he honestly felt flat for me. Without his solo we would never have gotten Grayson, or his great interactions and rebuilding relationship with Damian.

    What is at Tim's core matters little since he has evolved past that in many ways. What Tim needs is a solid direction moving forward, and one not linked to Robin, which is why I feel a name change is necessary.

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    To be fair my inital comment was Perhaps if Tim Drake was created to be more than just Robin we wouldn't be here. so I am saying that it might be a contributing factor that condemns the character in the future.
    The other were also not created to be more than Robin.

    I think the bigger problem is, that there ot really a niche for him as grown up Robin, pre crisis it worked because Dick was Batman, but with Dick back as Nightwing and most of Tims history erased, he is kind of redundant in that role. There for it kind of made sense to revered him to be and older Robin in hs mid to late teens, opposed to Damian as a preteen/early teen Robin.

  4. #349
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The other were also not created to be more than Robin.

    I think the bigger problem is, that there ot really a niche for him as grown up Robin, pre crisis it worked because Dick was Batman, but with Dick back as Nightwing and most of Tims history erased, he is kind of redundant in that role. There for it kind of made sense to revered him to be and older Robin in hs mid to late teens, opposed to Damian as a preteen/early teen Robin.
    Damian was.

    Like I said it's just my opinion. So what to do with a redundant robin?
    Someone said something about a series set in Gem World . That could be neat and reduces the number of the Bat individuals.
    Last edited by dietrich; 04-17-2019 at 06:56 AM.

  5. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Damian was.

    Like I said it's just my opinion. So what to do with a redundant robin?
    Damian was created to die as Robin. So, he definitely wasn't created to be more than Robin.

    About a redundant Robin, it is a complicated situation for Tim. His evolution is difficult, because Dick and Jason cover the possibilities.

  6. #351
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    Damian was created to die as Robin. So, he definitely wasn't created to be more than Robin.

    About a redundant Robin, it is a complicated situation for Tim. His evolution is difficult, because Dick and Jason cover the possibilities.
    No Damian was created to die without ever becoming Robin. Damian was only supposed to appear in Batman and Son. Check out the Fatman on batman video where Kevin Smith talks to Morrison about Damian and his Batman run.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Like I said it's just my opinion. So what to do with a redundant robin?
    The thing is he is not redundant as Robin, since he is quite differnt from Damain, just as former Robin he becomes redundant.

  8. #353
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The thing is he is not redundant as Robin, since he is quite differnt from Damain, just as former Robin he becomes redundant.
    Oh an older Robin. You think that that's something that could be he's niche? That there is a need for an older Robin when we have a Nightwing, A Red Hood, a Signal, a Robin, an Orphan, A Spoiler, A Batwoman, a Batgirl, a BatCow and a 2 batHounds?

    Leaving out Az and Batwing.
    Last edited by dietrich; 04-17-2019 at 07:49 AM.

  9. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    @Mataza

    1) Tim and Damian are the two robin's who I've read pretty much all their solo's and Batman stories arcs so while I don't recall the issue you are talking about Tim is a character that routinely lied to his folks so that likely just was taken for another lie but more importantly it's not what a member of the committee said. We know that Robin was everything to Tim because Marv told us.
    I dont understand what you said here, seems like some punctuation is missing tho.

    2) Characters evolve is a response to your Tim is a character that that grew...
    Jason hasnt evolved so much as completely changed, for the better according to most. But he was first, Robin, then a murderous psycho red hood, then a fairly likable red hood. None of these personalities are a result of natural evolution or growth.
    Dick is still the same carefree guy, the make him hate technology, they sort of kill him, they give him amnesia, but the character largely remains the same. Exact same thing with Bruce. Same with characters like cyborg or beast boy, or the martian manhunter, or Barry or etc.
    Characters that seem to grow and change are rare, from the top of my head its Wally and Kate probably some of the legionaires, im sure there are more, but i havent read nearly as many comics as the regulars here.


    4) He lost some elements [well one family] ...
    Im not trying to disprove he was created by a commitee, as i said, the importance of the mantle demanded a ton of participation. What im saying is that said commitee didnt influence much of the way the character turned out, even by the time of his solo he had lost his mother, his father was paralized, he wasnt as wealthy and he actually went to a public school.
    Also they tu


    5)Kon and Bart aren't the only young characters...
    Already talked about it. Kon and Bart are examples, i cant list every character made in the 80s, 90s, but among them im pretty certain Tim was unique.

    6)You shouldn't assume Mataza. There is a difference between a personal character like Damian and a corporate character like Tim.
    No, there is no difference. Also if it wasnt because of editorial mandates Damian would be dead. Now we get to see him do his "i was bad but i learned" gimmick in every storyline.

    Damian was an idea that the writer came up because...
    The story being "Batman loses a Robin".

    Tim was an idea that Corporate came up with and then they started pitching the ideas to multiple writers to see who would accept the gig.
    Nope, actually Tim was Marvs idea.

    A fan asked about what was going on behind the scenes at DC Comics during the creation of Tim Drake. Wolfman said that the Batman creators had asked him what he would do to create a new Robin.

    “My idea was, first, it should be a character that liked being Robin, but didn't necessarily want to be Batman, who saw Dick Grayson at the circus performing these incredible acrobatics that really were phenomanal and really rooted in his head at a young age because [Grayson's] parents died. A nightmare scenario like that just got absolutely imprinted into Tim's head. The acrobatics that Dick Grayson did really stayed with him, so that when he saw Robin pull the same exact acrobatic maneuver, it connected back to his childhood nightmare of parents dying and seeing Dick Grayson do that. So he figured out that Dick Grayson was Robin and then figured out the rest, and he just loved Robin. I wanted him to have a family, I didn't want him to be another ward of Batman...I just couldn't buy that that would be acceptable today. I wanted him to have his own family, I wanted him to have his own personality, and I wanted him to be exceptionally smart.”
    The character was accepted by the commitee, maybe they had some input during the initial stages. It really baffles the mind how you could think that a whole team put together and wrote the character, thats not how it works.

    Marv talks about the difference in the creation of personal characters like Starfire and Raven compared to a corporate one like Tim in the book I've already referenced so much. and in it he mentions that just because a character is a corporate character doesn't mean you still don't have stakes or care for the product. You still want them to be popular. So no I never said Tim is a soulless creation.
    Dude, the whole point of the argument is that a new Robin was needed, so he pitched it. The difference being that Raven or Starfire werent "needed", he came up with them to tell a story.

    I keep pointing it out because...
    The origin works as a motivator, thats at the core, yes, but along with that is every trait the character embodies, all of them being generic traits you can find on other characters. It is the combination of the motivation and the traits that make up the character.
    The base concept largely doesnt matter, characters outside of comics are meant to move on from their base concept. In comics tho, you have your spidermen and batmen and others which will never move away from the base concept. And other, less important, less popular characters, that will be allowed to develop, and as such as inherently more interesting.

    Dixon had strict guide lines.
    He was told what mistakes to correct. He was directed to make the new Robin more relateable, easy to identify with [Family problems, relationship problems, school problems, often having to contend with issues that he struggles with]
    Make him likeable [humble, modest, more thoughtful, insecure]
    make him a character who was still learning [a character that learns and grows]
    "So that was the tact I took" these are all Dixon's words from the interview.
    Yep, and yet there were a thousand different directions he could have gone with. For example Ryan Choi ticks every single one of those boxes and still manages to be wildy different.

    7) I wrote a huge piece that's available on the old Damian thread about why i love Damian. How much I can relate to him and how much he inspires me and my work [I work with kids with a history of abuse, neglect and ASBO's [anti social behaviour court orders]] Even outside of my job I wrote how I can relate to Damian on a personal level. From heavy expectations due to impressive parents, struggling and failing to meet those expectations, struggling against preconceived notions, learning to fit into a world different from one you are used to. I could go on.
    Alright, this is something ill concede, never thought about it that way.

    8) they might not be to Star and Raven but they are to Damian, Duke, Peter Parker, Carrie Kelly etc I always thought it was funny they killed off Tim's parents because Dixon gave that as the thing that made Tim so interesting and wolfman gave tim a family for the sole purpose of making him more interesting than Dick.
    Only duke and parker have any sort of modesty. I should have clarified before that by self sacrifice i meant sacrificing their personal life. Self sacrifice on matters of health is pretty common to both heroes and villains so its hardly worth bringing up.

    9) We'll let the words of Marv Wolfman decide. In his words Tim really wanted to be Robin. Even in the original origin when he goes to the family when you look at his dialogue while he is making his case he makes a case for his suitability for the role by dropping little hints that shows how he has the skills or how he can do it. It's a straight up sales pitch. But again my interpretation doesn't matter since Wolfman tells us.
    Of course he wanted to be Robin. That was his dream, what i dont buy is the sales pitch aspect of it. He clearly went there to get Dick on the mantle again.

    10) I'm just straight up quoting his words back to you and in story Batman didn't get lighter because he was still as brutal in the decades Tim was by his side. The time's when batman is in real problems he calls to Dick. We even find out in Rebirth that they have a tradition for every time Bruce is going on an away mission or a particularly dangerous mission.
    This isnt true. We have Bruce giving the mantle to jean paul, we have bruce asking tim to tell dick that something was going to happen, expecting dick to show up without actually being asked to show up. We have Tim facing the joker because Bruce wouldnt call anyone to take care of gotham while he was gone.
    Also we have Tim bringing Bruce and Dick together after Dick left on bad terms.
    What Rebirth tells us doesnt matter, the timeline is still changing, what does matter is what actually happened.

    Sometimes Royals fuckups turn into beautiful works of art that captures a lot of hearts and become widely popular. Even more so than those designed by committee with intensive Data to be the ideal sidekicks that embody lots of elements of the heroes journey
    Damian was already on the secondary world. He cant make the journey to a place hes been on his entire life. As for Jason, there was no journey, he died, then he came back and tried to murder orphans, then the timeline changed and he became a good guy.

    And factually by Nope you mean Yep because we have and i have provided more than enough evidence to show that Tim was indeed created by a committee based on intensive data or are calling Marv Wolfman, Denny O'neil, Neal Adams, Chuck Dixon and Barbara Kesel liars?
    Already answered this on this very post. So Nope.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    The Secret was my first thought as well.
    Yeah
    I even think you were the one that first suggested it a long time ago, but im not going to do a search.

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    To be fair my inital comment was Perhaps if Tim Drake was created to be more than just Robin we wouldn't be here. so I am saying that it might be a contributing factor that condemns the character in the future.

    This isn't factual just my opinion.
    Theres nothing wrong with the character that couldnt be solved by giving him his history back. The only reason we are here is because of the new 52. You know it, i know it, everyone else knows it. I have no idea why you insist on the inane notion that the character is irredemably flawed from its conception when the character was doing fine before literally everything about it was retconned.

    There is plenty of evidence pointing out to this and absolutely no evidence pointing out to your inane theory. You may as well start saying that the reason Tim Drake as a character didnt work during the new 52 was because there are moles in the moon planning an invasion in the near future. Its inanity.

  12. #357
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    I dont understand what you said here, seems like some punctuation is missing tho.


    Jason hasnt evolved so much as completely changed, for the better according to most. But he was first, Robin, then a murderous psycho red hood, then a fairly likable red hood. None of these personalities are a result of natural evolution or growth.
    Dick is still the same carefree guy, the make him hate technology, they sort of kill him, they give him amnesia, but the character largely remains the same. Exact same thing with Bruce. Same with characters like cyborg or beast boy, or the martian manhunter, or Barry or etc.
    Characters that seem to grow and change are rare, from the top of my head its Wally and Kate probably some of the legionaires, im sure there are more, but i havent read nearly as many comics as the regulars here.



    Im not trying to disprove he was created by a commitee, as i said, the importance of the mantle demanded a ton of participation. What im saying is that said commitee didnt influence much of the way the character turned out, even by the time of his solo he had lost his mother, his father was paralized, he wasnt as wealthy and he actually went to a public school.
    Also they tu



    Already talked about it. Kon and Bart are examples, i cant list every character made in the 80s, 90s, but among them im pretty certain Tim was unique.


    No, there is no difference. Also if it wasnt because of editorial mandates Damian would be dead. Now we get to see him do his "i was bad but i learned" gimmick in every storyline.


    The story being "Batman loses a Robin".


    Nope, actually Tim was Marvs idea.


    The character was accepted by the commitee, maybe they had some input during the initial stages. It really baffles the mind how you could think that a whole team put together and wrote the character, thats not how it works.


    Dude, the whole point of the argument is that a new Robin was needed, so he pitched it. The difference being that Raven or Starfire werent "needed", he came up with them to tell a story.


    The origin works as a motivator, thats at the core, yes, but along with that is every trait the character embodies, all of them being generic traits you can find on other characters. It is the combination of the motivation and the traits that make up the character.
    The base concept largely doesnt matter, characters outside of comics are meant to move on from their base concept. In comics tho, you have your spidermen and batmen and others which will never move away from the base concept. And other, less important, less popular characters, that will be allowed to develop, and as such as inherently more interesting.


    Yep, and yet there were a thousand different directions he could have gone with. For example Ryan Choi ticks every single one of those boxes and still manages to be wildy different.


    Alright, this is something ill concede, never thought about it that way.


    Only duke and parker have any sort of modesty. I should have clarified before that by self sacrifice i meant sacrificing their personal life. Self sacrifice on matters of health is pretty common to both heroes and villains so its hardly worth bringing up.


    Of course he wanted to be Robin. That was his dream, what i dont buy is the sales pitch aspect of it. He clearly went there to get Dick on the mantle again.


    This isnt true. We have Bruce giving the mantle to jean paul, we have bruce asking tim to tell dick that something was going to happen, expecting dick to show up without actually being asked to show up. We have Tim facing the joker because Bruce wouldnt call anyone to take care of gotham while he was gone.
    Also we have Tim bringing Bruce and Dick together after Dick left on bad terms.
    What Rebirth tells us doesnt matter, the timeline is still changing, what does matter is what actually happened.


    Damian was already on the secondary world. He cant make the journey to a place hes been on his entire life. As for Jason, there was no journey, he died, then he came back and tried to murder orphans, then the timeline changed and he became a good guy.


    Already answered this on this very post. So Nope.
    Phew after all that!

    I never said that he was written by an entire committee. Check my post. It was one of my shorter ones

  13. #358
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    Theres nothing wrong with the character that couldnt be solved by giving him his history back.
    That's already happened.

  14. #359
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    That's already happened.
    Nope. He got his origin back. That's it. His pre 52 history is pretty much gone mostly

  15. #360
    Incredible Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    Yeah
    I even think you were the one that first suggested it a long time ago, but im not going to do a search.
    I think I remember that too, I'm getting old.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    Nope. He got his origin back. That's it. His pre 52 history is pretty much gone mostly
    I think the only thing we never got clarification on was the status of his parents. I don't recall if Tynion touched on it during his Detective run or not.

    Titans 100 Page Giant #3 with a new story featuring Tim in it is out today at Walmart. He's also on the cover.
    Batman #300-
    Detective Comics #570-

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