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  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I loved Red Robin... until the New 52 came in.

    Red Robin was initially just what happens when talented writers simply write a well-defined character reacting in an emotionally logical way to the insane events that are occurring to him caused by other books. Willingham, Dixon, Yost, and Nicieza basically just had to take the endearing, sometimes neurotic “golden boy” Robin in Tim and have him take the hits caused by the death of Steph in War Games, his father’s death in Identity Crisis, his stepmother’s death, his two best friends’ death, and eventually Batman’s own death, and react accordingly, even when those characters came back.

    The result was a Tim who was more paranoid, more manipulative, and more morose... but still recognizable as coming from the original Tim. People could complain about the conceptual value of the character becoming darker, but by and large Tim’s writers all managed to maneuver him to that area in a sensible manner that maintained the character’s unique personality traits and “voice.” The exceptions were Adam Beechen, who kind of lost all credibility with his handling of Cassandra Cain, and to a lesser extent Geoff Johns, who I think lost track of the more mundane traits that other writers managed to keep so that Tim stayed believable.

    So when you got to Red Robin pre-New 52, it was a characterization, setting, and status quo that was still exceedingly competent, and had some weight and momentum behind it. People could debate whether having Tim’s paranoia go to full Tower-of-Babel-levels of paranoid and acting more ruthlessly manipulative was the right move for the character, but they didn’t really have to ask why he’d gone down that path, and he still had a pretty huge and respectable readership who still found him enjoyable, and some who even liked him a little bit more now (I’m one of them.)

    Then New 52 hit, and showed just how important competently handling and understanding the character was, and how integral that momentum in his previous serieses and the slow build towards his Red Robin status quo was. Scott Lobdell didn’t understand Tim’s voice at all, since it was too restrained and subtle for him, and generally just tried to write him as a bland and broad Robin-archetype. DC also seemed to decide that Tim “graduating” to Red Robin was the wrong move, and tried to modify him to some weird Robin-but-not-Robin creation that only seemed marginally in character whenever someone else from the Bat Books was writing him.

    And one of the biggest issues was the attempt to follow Lobdell’s lead in eliminating Tim’s more humble and mundane aspects and trying to reinvent him as the “tech” Robin. Lobdell’s resurrection fo his family should, in theory, have allowed for that more grounded aspect to be reintroduced and reinforced... except that Lobdell’s clearly didn’t get that and never intended to use that grounded aspect of the character at all, so they never appeared. And the Eternal maxi-serieses just kept on trying to find a way to make the tech-guy Schtick stick when really Tim thrives far more when he can be feature does in his civvies and using simple but creative cunning.
    Agreed. Tim was never the "techie." THat title belongs to Barbara/Lucius fox etc. He was better at tech than the other robins, but he was never the "donatello." Instead, his intelligence was more akin to the Batman "prep-god" than anything else. When a writer lacks the intelligence or the time to build towards that kind of payoff, it ruins the character.

    What do you think about Tim getting his memories back? I'm hopeful bendis can fix the character. We just really need a solo for that to happen though.

  2. #392
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    I'm honestly so meh on Tim until he gets that new ID in July. The first Bendis arc seems to just be a getting everyone on the same page arc

  3. #393

  4. #394
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    Still a bit nervous, but so far...Bendis is fixing Tim. Fingers crossed Tim keeps going to the direction he is going.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Still a bit nervous, but so far...Bendis is fixing Tim. Fingers crossed Tim keeps going to the direction he is going.
    next month is his new id

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkcrusade25 View Post
    next month is his new id
    god bless

    (I don't care how good/bad it is...at least this will be over)

  7. #397
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    god bless

    (I don't care how good/bad it is...at least this will be over)
    I never understood why Red Robin was a problem but whatever. I hope it doesn't suck and that he has a good redesign.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  8. #398
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    I never understood why Red Robin was a problem but whatever. I hope it doesn't suck and that he has a good redesign.
    New 52 and beyond kinda made Red Robin seem, well... just like 'another' Robin. It was fine before that, but now I think a change in name(and especially design) would help for the character to grow.

  9. #399
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    New 52 and beyond kinda made Red Robin seem, well... just like 'another' Robin. It was fine before that, but now I think a change in name(and especially design) would help for the character to grow.
    So? Just because the reboot was crap and he's not being used well doesn't suddenly mean the character or name is suddenly bad. Forcing a terrible direction onto a character for years then claim it's broken then changing it drastically again isn't "fixing" anything.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    So? Just because the reboot was crap and he's not being used well doesn't suddenly mean the character or name is suddenly bad. Forcing a terrible direction onto a character for years then claim it's broken then changing it drastically again isn't "fixing" anything.
    Eh...when Tim took the Red Robin name was good story telling and a great direction considering all the other things that had happened to the character previously. It was organic and natural for the most part. Everything leading up to Battle for the Cowl-N52 was great character growth imo. I know many people are still stuck on the pre-infinite Crisis Tim, but too much had happened around the character to leave him where he was at.

    Red Robin was natural progression, but it was built on context and being something other than robin.

    This Tim doesn't really have that context. Yeah, he has his memories back, but he no longer needs to separate himself. He no longer needs Red Robin and Robin doesn't work either so...I'm all for the change. The character is great. The name not so much.

  11. #401
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    So? Just because the reboot was crap and he's not being used well doesn't suddenly mean the character or name is suddenly bad. Forcing a terrible direction onto a character for years then claim it's broken then changing it drastically again isn't "fixing" anything.
    There was no progression from Robin to Red Robin with the New-52. What was done pre-52 was a great transition from Robin to Red Robin, but without that back story Red Robin is just Robin 2.0

  12. #402
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    Hopefully the new suit uses the theme of red black and grey. I don't want strong hints of robin in this suit like his rebirth suit

  13. #403
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkcrusade25 View Post
    Hopefully the new suit uses the theme of red black and grey. I don't want strong hints of robin in this suit like his rebirth suit
    I agree. Leave the green/red combo to Robin.

  14. #404
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  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    Haha. Love it.

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