Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2019

[Mataza]

@Mataza correction I meant in spite of his name Tim hated Damian.
Even though they were technically brothers being a Wayne didn't guarantee acceptance from Tim Wayne or Bruce wayne or even Dick.

They were actual brothers, not just techically.

Dick Grayson would have accepted Damian even if he wasn't Bruce's kid. At that point he had already turned his back on his mother in favour of becoming a hero.

With no connection to Bruce? At that point itd be just another troubled kid in a huge list of troubled kids. I cant say for sure Dick wouldnt have picked him, he may have tho.

You will have to show me how his name guarantees him anything in story.

Without the name he wouldnt even be there. Wouldnt even make sense to allow him into the cave if he wasnt Bruces son. Every consideration he ever had was because of that connection.
Deathstroke put it best, the massive compromise and breach in security that the kid represents, it is madness to allow him that. The only plausible reason for that is in his blood. There are plenty of troubled kids in the world and none of them got the access Damian did.

Just think of how similiar his circumstances would be to cass if he wasnt Bruces son, then think about how Bruce would have felt about a Cassandra that tried to kill one of his sons and actually murdered criminals, do you think shed be let on? Hed be in the same situation as Helena without that, at best. An outlier never to be fully accepted.

[Arsenal]

In-story, technically being a Wayne is the only reason Bruce lead a strike team to save Damian from Apokolips. So that (probably) has to count for something.

[dietrich]

It was before Damian took his mantle from him, it come from the fact that he threatened to do it.


Tim never did forgive Jason. We got a universe reboot and magical always Red Robin status quo.


When did this happen?


This isnt really strange tho, Tim idolized Jason.



I dont think Tim being ready to give up being Robin was the issue, just Damian never having earned it. Tim placed a great importance on being Robin. By Damians own admision being Robin was just a stepping stone.
While you can think thats not a big deal, some people value some symbols, and theyll hate you for tearing them down. Nowadays Robin is the annoying brat nobody wants to work with. Everything Tim worked for simply got tore down to accomodate entitlement.
I dont think Tim would have had a problem if Dicks Robin was a good kid.


A disguise to help troubled kids feel better about themselves? thats pretty lame, but could be interpreted that way.

Now i think Damian earned it later down the line, it is as we know, a redemption story. But that doesnt change the fact that things happened.

And even now that we arent sure what the hell happened, the status quo from the past continuity is so strong that their dynamic is the same even when it makes no sense for it to be.

Lame or not that is why Robin was created not to be a light or whatever spill they used to sell Tim but never backed up by the narrative
Damian earned Robin once Dick and Batman gave consent. He earned it when Alfred presented him with the outfit. he earned when Bruce gave consent. He earned it once he chose to become a hero and help those in need.

A lot of what happened changed once DC continuity changed. Nowadays Robin is a bratty kid who was willing to lay down his life twice to protect Gotham and to save the world. Get it right.

[dietrich]

In-story, technically being a Wayne is the only reason Bruce lead a strike team to save Damian from Apokolips. So that (probably) has to count for something.

And why did he leave Kgbeast for dead? Why is he losing his **** after losing Selina? Why did he burn the DNA results without looking at them? Bruce doesn't reserve love for Wayne's alone.

Wayne didn't stop him sending Damian back to Talia. Or planning on sending him back again in Inc

[Mataza]

Lame or not that is why Robin was created not to be a light or whatever spill they used to sell Tim but never backed up by the narrative

The point was that Robin had become more than that thanks to what Dick and Tim did.

Damian earned Robin once Dick and Batman gave consent. He earned it when Alfred presented him with the outfit. he earned when Bruce gave consent.

Nope

He earned it once he chose to become a hero and help those in need.

Yep

I dont think "earn" means what you think it means.

Nowadays Robin is a bratty kid who was willing to lay down his life twice to protect Gotham and to save the world. Get it right.

Thats always been Robin. Nowadays Robin is literally the kid nobody wants to hang out with, if you dont think this is the case, you really dont get how Damian is perceived by the DCU at large. Even Clark is a bit wary of him.

[Arsenal]

And why did he leave Kgbeast for dead? Why is he losing his **** after losing Selina? Why did he burn the DNA results without looking at them? Bruce doesn't reserve love for Wayne's alone.

Wayne didn't stop him sending Damian back to Talia. Or planning on sending him back again in Inc

I never claimed that Damian got any exclusive perks from being a Wayne, just that he does get some in-story perks for being one.

Beside, Bruce's history of extremely questionable decisions regarding his kids is why I said it only probably counts.

[dietrich]

They were actual brothers, not just techically.



With no connection to Bruce? At that point itd be just another troubled kid in a huge list of troubled kids. I cant say for sure Dick wouldnt have picked him, he may have tho.



Without the name he wouldnt even be there. Wouldnt even make sense to allow him into the cave if he wasnt Bruces son. Every consideration he ever had was because of that connection.
Deathstroke put it best, the massive compromise and breach in security that the kid represents, it is madness to allow him that. The only plausible reason for that is in his blood. There are plenty of troubled kids in the world and none of them got the access Damian did.

Just think of how similiar his circumstances would be to cass if he wasnt Bruces son, then think about how Bruce would have felt about a Cassandra that tried to kill one of his sons and actually murdered criminals, do you think shed be let on? Hed be in the same situation as Helena without that, at best. An outlier never to be fully accepted.

Jason is let on. Bruce is cool with him doing his thing [killing] outside Gotham and forgave him for the thing's he did in Gotham including trying to kill all his son's.
I'm sure Dick did kill the Joker in one story.
Maybe it's a son thing not a Wayne thing. But Bruce also let Selina in even when she confessed to mass murder.

[Jackalope89]

Jason is let on. Bruce is cool with him doing his thing [killing] outside Gotham and forgave him for the thing's he did in Gotham including trying to kill all his son's.
I'm sure Dick did kill the Joker in one story.
Maybe it's a son thing not a Wayne thing. But Bruce also let Selina in even when she confessed to mass murder.

To be fair, it seemed Bruce never believed Selina was the mass murderer.

But back to Jason; Bruce did violently beat Jason up and was about to drag him (literally) to Arkham until Roy showed up and got Jason out of dodge. Took Jason a good long while to recover. Oh, and also dragged Jason to the place he died, unapologetically. To which Jason, even right now, still has PTSD flashbacks of.

[dietrich]

The point was that Robin had become more than that thanks to what Dick and Tim did.


Nope


Yep

I dont think "earn" means what you think it means.


Thats always been Robin. Nowadays Robin is literally the kid nobody wants to hang out with, if you dont think this is the case, you really dont get how Damian is perceived by the DCU at large. Even Clark is a bit wary of him.

No because in-story writers have kept Batman dark Robin or not because that is popular. Sure Robin has accomplished a lot over the years thanks to all who've held the mantle . The cases just got more extreme [Dick wasn't a delinquent stealing tyres and Damian was a killer ]but the reason why it was created /purpose hasn't changed. It never became Batman's light. Canon stories don't offer evidence to support that.


Then can you please tell me how one earns Robin? How did Dick and Jason earn it? To help me understand.

Yet Clark allows his kid to spend time unsupervised with Damian. If I recall Clark only worried after Tim tried to kill his kid blaming him for thing's that might happen in the future by triggering the same solarflare in young Jon. The same Tim who has proven to be very unreliable. Parents worry.

Some like him few don't most respect him all know he is a hero but feel free to provide examples proving otherwise even though that's got nothing to do with the point and doesn't change the fact that this
Robin as always is still a hero willing to lay down their life for others. Bratty or not. though you seem unable/unwilling to get it right

[dietrich]

To be fair, it seemed Bruce never believed Selina was the mass murderer.

But back to Jason; Bruce did violently beat Jason up and was about to drag him (literally) to Arkham until Roy showed up and got Jason out of dodge. Took Jason a good long while to recover. Oh, and also dragged Jason to the place he died, unapologetically. To which Jason, even right now, still has PTSD flashbacks of.

None of that changes that even after Jason had killed and tried to kill Bruce and his sons Bruce still let him in. This isn't about Penguin. It doesn't change that Bruce was willing to let in Jason so long as he only killed outside Gotham. Not sure what dragging Jason to the place he died has to do with Jason still being part of the bat family after killing.

Bruce can be shitty but that's not the point. The point is that Bruce is willing to let in son's who have broken his rules even when they are not Wayne's by blood.

He lets them in because he cares, they are family or he is at times written as a hypocrite when it comes to people he loves.

I thought he believed Selina was guilty and tried to help her escape.

[Konja7]

Wayne didn't stop him sending Damian back to Talia. Or planning on sending him back again in Inc

Bruce doesn't exactly send Damian back to Talia.

After Damian almost kill Tim (and Damian had already killed another person), Bruce send Damian back to Talia, because he wants Damian and Talia to escape.

Although the reason why Bruce lost contact with Damian seems to be due to the explosion.

[nhienphan2808]

Tim idolised Jason

In the context of pre - new52 and for years from Tim’s appearance, this is a lie. The only Robin Tim idolize was Dick. He gave Jason passing thoughts as the Robin who died, and only refered to Jason when he thinks Bruce is wrong when Bruce has flashbacks towards Jason, “I’m not Jason!” He never knew the emotional impact Jason has upon Bruce as not Robin, but a son. Once he did realised Bruce loved Jason more than is good for His mental state, just as he realised in Dicks case, “the first born will always be the first born”, he in fact felt lost about his position in Bruce’s life and tried to work harder because of that insecurity. Once Jason came back a killer, it is all about the no kill code and justice. he has no Reason to even like Jason.

[nhienphan2808]

The scrapping of The first Robins history and inconsideration of Dicks role in both Tim and Damian’s development is everything wrong with them and the reboot in recent comics. The new52 Batman and Robin told us that “we were the best” but Dicks development and skills don’t show that he was even worthy to be Batman. You don’t just tell us that Dick taught Damian without showing Dicks superior skills, history and Damian’s growth. He is back to bratty kid before Bruce was his Batman. I agree with Mataza that his name is the only reason he was accepted by Bruce as of reboot. Preboot, It’s Dick and his ultimate definition of Robin that only the first could have that made him accept Damian. Damian didn’t have enough a relationship with Bruce to be accepted as Robin. It’s Dicks compassion and Tims understanding that helped. And even so, he was not the only Robin that has two Batmen. Bruce also didn’t accept Tim as first and Tim had to learn what Robin even is. It was Dicks trust in wee Tim and his relentless convincing that helped Tim develop into a Robin that Bruce needed. Both Tim and Damian lost their foundation now and only saying “**** continuity” could make either of them Robin again.

[dietrich]

The scrapping of The first Robins history and inconsideration of Dicks role in both Tim and Damian’s development is everything wrong with them and the reboot in recent comics. The new52 Batman and Robin told us that “we were the best” but Dicks development and skills don’t show that he was even worthy to be Batman. You don’t just tell us that Dick taught Damian without showing Dicks superior skills, history and Damian’s growth. He is back to bratty kid before Bruce was his Batman. I agree with Mataza that his name is the only reason he was accepted by Bruce as of reboot. Preboot, It’s Dick and his ultimate definition of Robin that only the first could have that made him accept Damian. Damian didn’t have enough a relationship with Bruce to be accepted as Robin. It’s Dicks compassion and Tims understanding that helped. And even so, he was not the only Robin that has two Batmen. Bruce also didn’t accept Tim as first and Tim had to learn what Robin even is. It was Dicks trust in wee Tim and his relentless convincing that helped Tim develop into a Robin that Bruce needed. Both Tim and Damian lost their foundation now and only saying “**** continuity” could make either of them Robin again.

We are the best is subjective not objective. Damian's opinion.

Dick did teach Damian and his superior skills are shown in how he relates or handles Damian e.g in War of the Robins when Damian tries to gain acceptance by challenging the others. Dick's personality, social skills and approach [see the last 5 lines of your own comment] was the key to changing Damian.

He never stopped being bratty and he's never going to stop. Since when did bratty become a deciding factor in allies? Not to mention that Bruce gave his consent preboot so your own argument counters your claim about Bruce only accepting Damian as Robin in the new 52 because of his name.
Damian like Batman carried his stories into the reboot. Bruce accepted him and left the duo in charge of Gotham while he did Batman Inc stuff before the reboot.

It was seeing 1st hand what a good job the duo were doing, trusting Dick, observing Damian for sometime and Alfred likely giving him a report that lead to Bruce's decision. Nothing to do with Tim.

Who said Damian was the only Robin who had 2 Batmen? Not sure what your last four lines have to do with the debate at hand but yep Dick Grayson is amazing. He's not just a great mentor but 100% worthy and proved that he can do the job [Batman] just fine and Bruce agrees. That is canon.

**** continuity Tim is Robin again.
Damian has been Robin since Dickbats that has always been the continuity.

[Darkcrusade25]

Just read the new TT. Damian gets a little bit more character growth IMO.