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  1. #2536
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    AMAZING FANARTS.

  2. #2537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkcrusade25 View Post
    The Arkham games had Bruce and Talia as a OTP. Not even BatCat worked there
    The Arkham were created for and by the generations that considered BruTalia the OTP. Less Baby Boomers and most of X and more Gen Y/Millennials. People who grew up on Batman and Superman: TAS and Batman Beyond as well as comics...but not Catwoman comics.

    It was also part of the outraged and enraged backlash over the choices to have Talia date rape Bruce when anyone who reads comics knows how they banged frequently and then the point where Red Hood Lost Days jumped the shark by screaming up the timeline in order to make Talia a psycho villain.

    Not that it helped. When the top people decide that someone is going to be a villain and their OTP is the only one that will happen it's the way it goes. Fan opinions and sales don't matter.

    But at least the Arkham games ensured, even if some fans (one's who think Damian should have green eyes) aren't smart enough to catch it, that Damian's conception, and potentially Athanasia's, was the product of enthusiastic consent. We also got Talia's classic personality trait of throwing herself on Bruce to protect him regardless if of if he needed it which comics Damian has inherited, so there's that.

    Arkham had good writers who knew what people wanted...and also got laid enough/been in enough relationships to understand why BatCat even as written by Tom King fails as an adult relationship whereas BruTalia in every issue they're in outside of Morrison hits all the notes a romance should. Including the true test of true love after a breakup: can the couple have no contact for five years or more and still be attracted to each other?

  3. #2538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    I agree, the way King handles the batfamily and their importance to Bruce is just terrible in this run. I get that King wants to write this "epic love story" for Bruce and Selina, but stomping on every other relationship (romantic and not romantic) is the wrong way to go.

    You don't have to claim that Bruce never truly loved anyone besides Selina to show us that she is (supposedly) the one for him and you don't have to diminish the role of his family in his life to make the reader feel like she is special to him.
    Writing like only the love interest matters and everyone else is just kinda there is actually a sign of a terribly written romance, at least in my opinion. Bruce out of all people putting his love life over his family is even worse and the way I see it pretty ooc.
    I would say Tom King has never visited any media with a romance in it but that would be wrong. His award winning Annual is a thinly veiled gender reversal fan fiction based on the movie version of The Notebook, and I am mildly embarrassed to admit that I caught this, but his run pulls heavily on the Twilight novels.*

    It's why it resonates so strongly with certain people as both were successful bestsellers.

    On the plus side, at least people now have the opportunity to say "But it's not as good of a love story as Twilight."

    But you're absolutely right, it's terrible, teenage style writing to throw other love interests and relationships under the bus to push a OTP. It's also a version of toxicity that most genres in general, and romance in particular, don't tolerate. Romance has a tendency to focus on how the kids choose and negotiate the relationship as that's an integral part of a single parent's life. The book I'm reading right now is a thriller, but the potential love interest is measuring the main character by her child's reactions which is very true to life for both males and females. No one who is not a frequent flyer with Child Protective Services would ever get engaged without clearing it with their child first, even the noncustodial parents.

    It was one of the sweetest moments in the first Batwoman run when Kate and Maggie stepped up their relationship: Maggie was firm and clear that her child's, who she didn't have custody of, safety and happiness needed to take priority over her and Kate's.

    Of course they couldn't get married because no one in the Batfamily is allowed to be happy. That was the official reason, and if BatCat happens, except blood, boycotts, and bad press.

    *Anyone who was old enough to date between 2003 to 2010 should have caught that. Actually, let's push that out to include The 50 Shaded era too.

  4. #2539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    The Arkham were created for and by the generations that considered BruTalia the OTP. Less Baby Boomers and most of X and more Gen Y/Millennials. People who grew up on Batman and Superman: TAS and Batman Beyond as well as comics...but not Catwoman comics.

    It was also part of the outraged and enraged backlash over the choices to have Talia date rape Bruce when anyone who reads comics knows how they banged frequently and then the point where Red Hood Lost Days jumped the shark by screaming up the timeline in order to make Talia a psycho villain.

    Not that it helped. When the top people decide that someone is going to be a villain and their OTP is the only one that will happen it's the way it goes. Fan opinions and sales don't matter.

    But at least the Arkham games ensured, even if some fans (one's who think Damian should have green eyes) aren't smart enough to catch it, that Damian's conception, and potentially Athanasia's, was the product of enthusiastic consent. We also got Talia's classic personality trait of throwing herself on Bruce to protect him regardless if of if he needed it which comics Damian has inherited, so there's that.

    Arkham had good writers who knew what people wanted...and also got laid enough/been in enough relationships to understand why BatCat even as written by Tom King fails as an adult relationship whereas BruTalia in every issue they're in outside of Morrison hits all the notes a romance should. Including the true test of true love after a breakup: can the couple have no contact for five years or more and still be attracted to each other?
    I did not want to enter in this debate and I definitely do not want to defend King.

    However, this idea that the relationship between Bruce and Talia is functional or healthy seems pretty wrong (even if we ignore the events in Morrison's run, but I will not ignore them).

    I'm not a fan of Bruce x Selina, I also agree the way King writes this relationship is terrible. Even so, I would say that sales would be in favor of Bruce x Selina than of Bruce x Talia.

  5. #2540
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I did not want to enter in this debate and I definitely do not want to defend King.

    However, this idea that the relationship between Bruce and Talia is functional or healthy seems pretty wrong (even if we ignore the events in Morrison's run, but I will not ignore them).

    I'm not a fan of Bruce x Selina, I also agree the way King writes this relationship is terrible. Even so, I would say that sales would be in favor of Bruce x Selina than of Bruce x Talia.
    They are both bad relationships and of course the sales favour BatCat just like the sales favour Robin when compared to Signal. A character that doesn't have nearly as much exposure. Barely any Outside media showing. Is practically unknown except to hardcore comic fans. Hasn't had decades of indepth exploration and doesn't have the advantage of being Batman's recognised and default Sidekick.

    Comparing the sales is grossly unfair until they have the same odds and are given the same chances. Anyway they are both horrible choices and what King is doing right now is proving to me that a pairing that I just took as the right choice for batman actually doesn't work.

    Bruce shouldn't be dating any of the two. There's a reason Bruce doesn't have to be tricked or manipulated into proposing to the many other non-villain girlfriends he's had over the years. They are healthy are they worked. There's a reason that Talia and Selina are always chasing after Bruce desperately and shamelessly while he actually runs away from them or throws them in jail [well Selina at least] They are not healthy.

    While we are at it I'm happy that Talia is no longer fawning or over Bruce and just getting on with her business.

    I don't get why writers can't give us more Bat X Andrea, Sliver or any other of the interesting ladies who have regular jobs.


    P.S
    Since you are not ignoring Morrison. I also hope you are not ignoring Gleason and Tomasi since they are essential when it comes to Morrison's Talia.
    Last edited by CPSparkles; 07-27-2019 at 07:14 PM.

  6. #2541
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    They are both bad relationships and of course the sales favour BatCat just like the sales favour Robin when compared to Signal. A character that doesn't have nearly as much exposure. Barely any Outside media showing. Is practically unknown except to hardcore comic fans. Hasn't had decades of indepth exploration and doesn't have the advantage of being Batman's recognised and default Sidekick.

    Comparing the sales is grossly unfair until they have the same odds and are given the same chances. Anyway they are both horrible choices and what King is doing right now is proving to me that a pairing that I just took as the right choice for batman actually doesn't work.

    Bruce shouldn't be dating any of the two. There's a reason Bruce doesn't have to be tricked or manipulated into proposing to the many other non-villain girlfriends he's had over the years. They are healthy are they worked. There's a reason that Talia and Selina are always chasing after Bruce desperately and shamelessly while he actually runs away from them or throws them in jail [well Selina at least] They are not healthy.

    While we are at it I'm happy that Talia is no longer fawning or over Bruce and just getting on with her business.

    I don't get why writers can't give us more Bat X Andrea, Sliver or any other of the interesting ladies who have regular jobs.
    I agree both relationships aren't healthy.

    I just want to say that I mentioned sales, because Arctic Cyclist said that top people choose their OTP (Bruce x Selina) despite sales. This wouldn't be true, since sales support Bruce x Selina more than Bruce x Talia.
    Last edited by Konja7; 07-27-2019 at 07:21 PM.

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  8. #2543
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  11. #2546
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    Dick and Damian have a multi-faceted dynamic that can’t be sum up with one word. They’re the guys who reinvented the dynamic duo. Their relationship mirrors that between Bruce and Dick. A special relationship that's difficult to define but this writers does a great job

    https://bat-lings.tumblr.com/post/18...ve-a-brotherly
    Last edited by dietrich; 07-28-2019 at 04:31 AM.

  12. #2547
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Reading Batman and Robin wish we had more Damian and Babs. Just a reminder that both Babs and Damian were shot and paralysed by a Red Hood

  13. #2548
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    Uhh wait what when did that happen ?

  14. #2549
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    During Jason’s “I wanna be you” phase. This particular incident occurred when somebody gave him a Punisher comic and told him to “go nuts”.

  15. #2550
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Reading Batman and Robin wish we had more Damian and Babs. Just a reminder that both Babs and Damian were shot and paralysed by a Red Hood
    That did happen didn't it and Dick took him to Talia to save him. That gets hand waved along with a lot of Morrison's Jason. I know that some claim that it's no longer canon but Damian still has his unbreakable spine.

    I liked Morrison's Jason. I know a lot of fans on here don't but I found him more interesting and he brought something different to the family. I like current Jason but he's lost that niche.

    I've said it before I don't mind a Bat killing. My favourite Batman is Batman 666 so was cool to see someone breaking the rules [why i love Damian and his brand of Justice. He does things that Robin wouldn't].

    I guess he was only able to do those things because he was wearing the Bat Brand and was against the family but I miss that.

    Can't exactly try to kill someone one day and then roll up to hang or save the day with them the next. i wish the aftermath of that was explored more rather than ignored because it did happen.

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