Damian Wayne: Robin Appreciation 2019

[dietrich]

During Jason’s “I wanna be you” phase. This particular incident occurred when somebody gave him a Punisher comic and told him to “go nuts”.

The Punisher was never as interesting as Red head Jason. I must be the only one who liked that version.

[Arsenal]

The Punisher was never as interesting as Red head Jason. I must be the only one who liked that version.

I just never saw the appeal of Red Head Jason. To me, he just came across as one note & dull villain of the week.

[Sergard]

Reading Batman and Robin wish we had more Damian and Babs. Just a reminder that both Babs and Damian were shot and paralysed by a Red Hood

Damian was paralyzed by Flamingo. See Batman & Robin #6

The Punisher was never as interesting as Red head Jason. I must be the only one who liked that version.

I would have liked that version more if DC had given Jason and Scarlet their own comic independent of Batman & Robin and if DC hadn't changed Jason's hair color and costume. Because of that there is still a lot of wrong information going around. For example, there are still people who think that New52 Jason is a natural redhead who dyes his hair. Also a lot of people claim that pre-crisis Jason had red hair. But pre-crisis Jason was blonde. Morrison's Jason was actually the first version with red hair.

There was also a lot of victim blaming in Batman & Robin. Damian is cruel and mocks Jason's death more than once. Dick does not behave any better. There is not much consideration shown for Jason's trauma. They simply say he's insane. And that's sad. That's not the kind of "heroism" I want to read.

I'm not defending Jason's actions towards Dick and Damian in B&R, especially since a lot of them were purely written by Morrison for drama purpose. Dick was the new Batman and Damian the new Robin - so why not use another ex Robin as villain to push the dynamic duo? The same concept has already worked in the past. Just look at Batman's rogue gallery. A lot of villains have a personal connection to Batman/Bruce Wayne. Morrison also wrote Tom King style. Dramatic story comes first, consistence with past character depictions is secondary.

But in the end I prefer sane Jason who is on speaking terms with the other batfamily members, has his own adventures with his own team (killing villains if necessary but without batmembers interfering) and doesn't get ridiculed/blamed for being murdered/traumatized.

[Konja7]

I would have liked that version more if DC had given Jason and Scarlet their own comic independent of Batman & Robin and if DC hadn't changed Jason's hair color and costume. Because of that there is still a lot of wrong information going around. For example, there are still people who think that New52 Jason is a natural redhead who dyes his hair. Also a lot of people claim that pre-crisis Jason had red hair. But pre-crisis Jason was blonde. Morrison's Jason was actually the first version with red hair.

There was also a lot of victim blaming in Batman & Robin. Damian is cruel and mocks Jason's death more than once. Dick does not behave any better. There is not much consideration shown for Jason's trauma. They simply say he's insane. And that's sad. That's not the kind of "heroism" I want to read.

I'm not defending Jason's actions towards Dick and Damian in B&R, especially since a lot of them were purely written by Morrison for drama purpose. Dick was the new Batman and Damian the new Robin - so why not use another ex Robin as villain to push the dynamic duo? The same concept has already worked in the past. Just look at Batman's rogue gallery. A lot of villains have a personal connection to Batman/Bruce Wayne. Morrison also wrote Tom King style. Dramatic story comes first, consistence with past character depictions is secondary.

But in the end I prefer sane Jason who is on speaking terms with the other batfamily members, has his own adventures with his own team (killing villains if necessary but without batmembers interfering) and doesn't get ridiculed/blamed for being murdered/traumatized.

To be fair, Morrison story about Jason came after Battle for the Cowl.

Jason seems to be pretty insane in Battle for the Cowl. So, I guess Morrison was continuing that story.


Don't misunderstand me, I also prefer Jason to be sane. It is just it has sense Morrison to write Jason that way at that moment.

[Zaresh]

I would have liked that version more if DC had given Jason and Scarlet their own comic independent of Batman & Robin and if DC hadn't changed Jason's hair color and costume. Because of that there is still a lot of wrong information going around. For example, there are still people who think that New52 Jason is a natural redhead who dyes his hair. Also a lot of people claim that pre-crisis Jason had red hair. But pre-crisis Jason was blonde. Morrison's Jason was actually the first version with red hair.

There was also a lot of victim blaming in Batman & Robin. Damian is cruel and mocks Jason's death more than once. Dick does not behave any better. There is not much consideration shown for Jason's trauma. They simply say he's insane. And that's sad. That's not the kind of "heroism" I want to read.

I'm not defending Jason's actions towards Dick and Damian in B&R, especially since a lot of them were purely written by Morrison for drama purpose. Dick was the new Batman and Damian the new Robin - so why not use another ex Robin as villain to push the dynamic duo? The same concept has already worked in the past. Just look at Batman's rogue gallery. A lot of villains have a personal connection to Batman/Bruce Wayne. Morrison also wrote Tom King style. Dramatic story comes first, consistence with past character depictions is secondary.

But in the end I prefer sane Jason who is on speaking terms with the other batfamily members, has his own adventures with his own team (killing villains if necessary but without batmembers interfering) and doesn't get ridiculed/blamed for being murdered/traumatized.

This is pretty much how I feel regarding Morrison's Jason. Also, I don't think he was interesting at all. Not under Morrison at least: he was a caricature of a character in that book, even if things got better later on. I like cartoonish villains as much as any other person who enjoys cheesy fun things; but that also means he's not going to be a character at all; and he's cursed to stay without any depth every time he shows up, at risk of tiring the reader, unless someone decides that maybe he's an actual character with motivations and maybe not so "evil", making him entertaining. If you look at every big bat-villain from the silver or the golden, they all have passed through some kind of "depthing" of their character. And then, making Jason a pure villain would do no favor or justice to his time as Robin, or even in Under the Hood. He may be violent, and can hold grunges with his teeth, and he's a little too messed in his head, and he's definitely no saint; but he's heroic at his core, and was as Robin, which is why he got murdered, actually. What makes him conflictive is that he's willing to do very gray or even dark stuff to reach a heroic aim. So turning him into this uncaring, flamboyant, extremely cruel and silly villain was, eh, arguable at best. Morrison needed a tool to drive his drama, and he chose Jason as foil at some point.

And he was a fun read, but a new, different character that wouldn't work outside that story.

[Arsenal]

I wouldn’t be against Morrison’s Hood being repackaged as somebody new and added to Dick or Damian’s rouges gallery though. You can definitely have some fun with the cartoony Screwball/Punisher hybrid that Morrison wrote, I just think it would of been better suited for another character.

[dietrich]

Damian was paralyzed by Flamingo. See Batman & Robin #6



I would have liked that version more if DC had given Jason and Scarlet their own comic independent of Batman & Robin and if DC hadn't changed Jason's hair color and costume. Because of that there is still a lot of wrong information going around. For example, there are still people who think that New52 Jason is a natural redhead who dyes his hair. Also a lot of people claim that pre-crisis Jason had red hair. But pre-crisis Jason was blonde. Morrison's Jason was actually the first version with red hair.

There was also a lot of victim blaming in Batman & Robin. Damian is cruel and mocks Jason's death more than once. Dick does not behave any better. There is not much consideration shown for Jason's trauma. They simply say he's insane. And that's sad. That's not the kind of "heroism" I want to read.

I'm not defending Jason's actions towards Dick and Damian in B&R, especially since a lot of them were purely written by Morrison for drama purpose. Dick was the new Batman and Damian the new Robin - so why not use another ex Robin as villain to push the dynamic duo? The same concept has already worked in the past. Just look at Batman's rogue gallery. A lot of villains have a personal connection to Batman/Bruce Wayne. Morrison also wrote Tom King style. Dramatic story comes first, consistence with past character depictions is secondary.

But in the end I prefer sane Jason who is on speaking terms with the other batfamily members, has his own adventures with his own team (killing villains if necessary but without batmembers interfering) and doesn't get ridiculed/blamed for being murdered/traumatized.

I have to disagree. It's been a while since i read B&R but I don't recall lots of victim blaming. Damian was at times douchey to Jason just as he was to everyone and they remember they were enemies. Jason was at war with them even before Morrison.
Jason was already attempting to kill him and was already an ex robin villain before Morrison. I recall him putting on a bat suit and trying to kill them. I recall Damian had to save Tim after Jason left him for dead.

Jason before Morrison was more crazy and all over the place. He was already arching Bruce then Dick and Tim even before Damian was introduced.

I felt Morrison lost a lot of the crazy Robin running around and made him more of a smart antagonist. I don't recall victim blaming but I recall Damian thrashing Joker with a crowbar [which I like to think was in part retaliation for what he did to Jason since he bring it up in the attack]

I recall Damian and Jason taking digs at each other which they still do to this day. I remember Dick saying that Jason was dangerous [which he was] I don't recall anyone saying or implying that it was his fault he died. I don't recall them discoursing Jason that much.

Morrison doesn't write like King. Not even close. I know fans give him a hard time for Talia but to say that Morrison is a writer that puts drama 1st before characterisation is flat incorrect.

Morrison is in fact the writer that retains most or references every bit of character beat even back to the day they were created. He is the guy who takes an everything is canon approach to characters.

Morrison brought back Jason's red [strawberry blond it should be] hair but he was already arching the Bats before Morrison.

I have to go back to Morrison's run but I was also sure that Jason not Flamingo was the one that shot Damian.

I do enjoy Jason being back with the family but there's not nearly enough of the family working together to make it a fair trade for Jason who plays by his rules.

[dietrich]

I just never saw the appeal of Red Head Jason. To me, he just came across as one note & dull villain of the week.

I think there was so much to be explored. I thought Jason before that when he was putting on Robin suits and Batsuits was more when he was one note villain of the week. Stuck on the Robin who died note and constantly pestering Tim and Dick. I would have enjoyed more of him and scarlet and their war on Gotham's underworld.

The one thing I hated about Morrison's Jason was that God awful costume with the authentic RedHood Pill Helmet.

[TheCape]

I have to go back to Morrison's run but I was also sure that Jason not Flamingo was the one that shot Damian

I just read it, Flamingo was the one that shot Damian and broke his spine.

[Sergard]

Here's the page with Flamingo and Damian.

[Arsenal]

I think there was so much to be explored. I thought Jason before that when he was putting on Robin suits and Batsuits was more when he was one note villain of the week. Stuck on the Robin who died note and constantly pestering Tim and Dick. I would have enjoyed more of him and scarlet and their war on Gotham's underworld.

The one thing I hated about Morrison's Jason was that God awful costume with the authentic RedHood Pill Helmet.

YMMV I suppose. Never liked the idea of him working with Scarlet nor did the “study branding by day, kill criminals by night” gimmick ever click for me. Both ideas had potential but Jason was a bad fit for them.

[dietrich]

Here's the page with Flamingo and Damian.

Well what do you know. i was sure it was Jason but you are correct it was Flamingo. What happened to him? I liked him. Was he gay? I sort have this idea that he was a gay villain

[Sergard]

I have to disagree. [...]

Then we have to agree to disagree before this discussion about Morrison's Jason goes even more off-topic (maybe we can continue it somewhere else at another time when you have re-read Batman & Robin and I have read Battle for the Cowl - which won't happen very soon. I already know the basic story, and I don't like it).

But I also don't believe that Damian hitting Joker with a crowbar was anywhere near a retaliation for Jason (even if the thought is nice). For the Robin mantle in general, sure, but for Jason personally? I don't believe so. The story is only a few issues after the Flamingo story. And Damian hates Jason in that story. That would be a big change of heart for Damian that he suddenly cares about Jason. Even nowadays it seems still questionable if Damian cares about Jason or not. Maybe it sounds a little pessimistic but after Damian has accused Jason twice this year of being a villain (The Other's ally, Leviathan) I'm losing faith that Damian accepts Jason as a brother.

Which is a shame. Dick and Damian is great and all, but there is more than one way of having a brotherly relationship and Damian could explore this with Jason (and Tim, and maybe even Duke).

[TheCape]

Well what do you know. i was sure it was Jason but you are correct it was Flamingo. What happened to him? I liked him. Was he gay? I sort have this idea that he was a gay villain

I think that his last apperance was on Percy's Nightwing. If i remember correctly, he was a crazy cannibal, not much beyond that.

[Arsenal]

Well what do you know. i was sure it was Jason but you are correct it was Flamingo. What happened to him? I liked him. Was he gay? I sort have this idea that he was a gay villain

He was more of the “get off on skimming off your face and eating it” type. You might be thinking of Damian’s “I was expecting scary, not gay” line though.