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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    That part I didn't hear. What I heard was during my first actual read to Damian in New 52 Batman and Robin, people didn't like it because the character seem to regress back to when he was before with Dick Grayson. Despite the book itself acknowledging that time happen, the fans feel like DC is trying to replace Dick and Damian's development with Bruce and attributing Damian's development to Bruce instead of Dick.

    Attachment 75850

    I didn't think much of it because it was a reboot and I view it as their way to reintroduce Damian's character to the new reader. They need to introduce the bratty, stabby part before going into the soft, insecure insides.

    I was actually more annoyed that they depict Bruce as emotionally detached when I know he's been raising kids for as long as he was Batman. I still can justify it as Bruce being extra nervous because in classic Bruce and Dick relationship they just become friends without both feeling the burden that they have to be father and son, while with Damian there's a lot of awkwardness going on.

    Like suddenly they both realize "Oh shit. We have to be a family."

    I understood Bruce acting the way he did afterall this wasn't his choice.
    Bruce has been raising kids but in a different way to Damian. Tomasi is the first time i saw him go to full Father mode. he also did reject Damian at the start before he died so i get the reason why he was detached.

    Damian demanded more emotional involvement than Dick and Jason because Damian needed more.He needed side of Bruce we have never seen Fans say that Bruce has been a father before and while that is true. We have never seen it explored. we just sort of accepted it without seeing it. Tomasi is the only Writer that has ever explored batman as a dad.


    Another thing when fans say Damian doesn't work with Bruce they bring up the Tomasi run which isn't really about them working as batman and Robin but about them learning to be family. r


    Suddenly forced to be family with someone you rejected is going to match you detached.

    Fans also disliked the run because they felt it elevated Damian to some special son place and because it did not feature Grayson. I didn't mind any of that. Batman Inc gave us the closure we needed for that duo. Tomasi was here explore Bruce and Damian

    Damian and Bruce work well a batman and robin Tomasi's work was about something else.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babybats View Post
    Oh yeah, I heard that, too. I also disagree withA the criticism and have no problem with it. Damian struggling with the No Kill Rule in Tomasi B&R was very different from the Morrison days. Back then, he didn't seem to understand why killing was bad at all and was full on blood thirsty. In the N52 when he kills Nobody, it weighs heavily on him. It's not an easy choice for him and he's caught in the philosophical question of whether it's better to kill the villains or leave them alive to kill others. Which is way different from his cavalier attitude before. It shows growth and is more realistic than if the problem was solved all at once. And it's not taking away any of Dick's influence imo--Damian is so different at the start of the N52 than he was in the very beginning, and that's all due to Dick (and Alfred).

    I'm actually not too bothered by Bruce being emotionally detached because, to me, I always saw it as him being extremely awkward around Damian specifically. Morrison always wrote him as not wanting to have anything to do with Damian, or at least that's the impression I got. I mean, your newly discovered kid explodes on a sub--at best, he's back with the assassins, at worst he's dead--and you're not concerned? Actually...I think Tomasi is maybe the only writer who ever has Bruce making an effort with Damian.

    And I think the awkwardness makes sense. The other boys were different. Bruce chose them, he understood them, they kept him sane. Damian is so much more flawed and in need of a kind of care Bruce doesn't know how to provide at first. Add to that Damian's heritage. Bruce sees all his worst flaws in Damian and I think projects some of his fears and self loathing onto him. He always expects the worst even when Damian is trying his best. And I like that they're both struggling, that it's not easy. It makes it more rewarding when they finally do bond.
    No writers like Orlando, Priest, jurgens, Synder, Percy and more have given us caring Bruce who make the effort it's just that those were not in the main Bat books. I just feel that the main bat boo isn't a pace where writers can ever focus on Bruce as a dad. That's not what fans who have been buying Batman for decades want. They complain about the family and about Selina and we saw what happened with Superman. As great as Superdad was fans ended up complaining because there was too much focus on Jon.

    I hope we get to see Batman and Robin i Tec not just Bruce and Damian so people can see the two work great together

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    @ Babybats did you read Orlando's The Shadow/Batman? There Damian jokes to Bruce that he's not one his chums. It's actually a really great mini.

    i would love a Supersons arc where they met those guys. The chum batman and the Superdickeryman

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    I understood Bruce acting the way he did afterall this wasn't his choice.
    Bruce has been raising kids but in a different way to Damian. Tomasi is the first time i saw him go to full Father mode. he also did reject Damian at the start before he died so i get the reason why he was detached.
    Did Bruce reject Damian at start?

    I mean Bruce was clearly angry after Damian almost killed Tim and he didn't know how to deal with Damian, but it was external circumstances that kept them away.
    Last edited by Konja7; 01-03-2019 at 04:31 AM.

  5. #50
    Fantastic Member babybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    No writers like Orlando, Priest, jurgens, Synder, Percy and more have given us caring Bruce who make the effort it's just that those were not in the main Bat books. I just feel that the main bat boo isn't a pace where writers can ever focus on Bruce as a dad. That's not what fans who have been buying Batman for decades want. They complain about the family and about Selina and we saw what happened with Superman. As great as Superdad was fans ended up complaining because there was too much focus on Jon.

    I hope we get to see Batman and Robin i Tec not just Bruce and Damian so people can see the two work great together

    @ Babybats did you read Orlando's The Shadow/Batman? There Damian jokes to Bruce that he's not one his chums. It's actually a really great mini.

    i would love a Supersons arc where they met those guys. The chum batman and the Superdickeryman
    I did think of Priest, but while I do love how he explored Bruce's insecurities as a father and showed how much he cared about Damian, he didn't do much parenting in it. And I can't really recall anything of the sort happening under Snyder or Percy. Though I guess Snyder's Batman did have one flashback with Damian and it's kind of a father-son moment, so that counts. And I'm not sure which Jurgens title you mean.

    And nope I haven't read it yet. I bought it and I've been meaning to get to it. That sounds really fun!

    I was also thinking the Supersons should meet the golden age versions of their parents haha. Supes would be a jerk, Lois would be scheming to trick him into marrying her--and Jon would be traumatized. Damian would be horrified at how uncool and unedgy Batman is. (But secretly like that his dad is showering him with attention and positivity.) And then he'd try to get Dick to put on pants. Try and fail.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babybats View Post
    I did think of Priest, but while I do love how he explored Bruce's insecurities as a father and showed how much he cared about Damian, he didn't do much parenting in it. And I can't really recall anything of the sort happening under Snyder or Percy. Though I guess Snyder's Batman did have one flashback with Damian and it's kind of a father-son moment, so that counts. And I'm not sure which Jurgens title you mean.

    And nope I haven't read it yet. I bought it and I've been meaning to get to it. That sounds really fun!

    I was also thinking the Supersons should meet the golden age versions of their parents haha. Supes would be a jerk, Lois would be scheming to trick him into marrying her--and Jon would be traumatized. Damian would be horrified at how uncool and unedgy Batman is. (But secretly like that his dad is showering him with attention and positivity.) And then he'd try to get Dick to put on pants. Try and fail.
    Percy was in Green arrow when he goes to Ollie and asks him to please look after damian because he was going away. Ollie's thought implied that Bruce has been worrying about Damian for some time.

    Snyder was in Metal where bruce opens up to Clark about his worries and fears. he also ask him to make sure Damian grows into the man he was meant to be. Bruce was worried he wouldn't be around for Damian. They are not story arcs but they are signs of Bruce caring and worrying about Damian.

    Damian would be traumatised by the old Robin costume

  7. #52
    Fantastic Member babybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Percy was in Green arrow when he goes to Ollie and asks him to please look after damian because he was going away. Ollie's thought implied that Bruce has been worrying about Damian for some time.

    Snyder was in Metal where bruce opens up to Clark about his worries and fears. he also ask him to make sure Damian grows into the man he was meant to be. Bruce was worried he wouldn't be around for Damian. They are not story arcs but they are signs of Bruce caring and worrying about Damian.

    Damian would be traumatised by the old Robin costume
    Ahhh, ok I know what you mean now. Though I more thinking about who showed Bruce actually parenting on panel, not just showing how he feels. But yeah, he clearly cares a lot about his youngest and wants to be involved, it's a nice change from Bruce's attitude in the beginning.

    Seeing Dick in his original outfit would make Damian question everything he ever thought about him. On the other hand, seeing Jason in the same outfit would make Damian's life. Blackmail material forever.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    @ oasis1313 Carried over from the last thread
    No Damian didn't build the Fortress of Attitude for himself. Bruce and Clark built it for the boys. Aquaman provided the location in Atlantis.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    @Babybats @CPSpakles your discussion got me thinking of this




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  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Ah, I forgot. Batman and Robin weren't actually the first Damian I read. It was his guest-starring moments in Scott Snyder's Batman.

    When they're preparing for the party and Tim helped tied his tie and they snark each other.
    When Batman went missing and Damian paired with Dick to interrogate criminals
    When the Bat Signal finally burned out and he demanded Commissioner Gordon to light a new one before finally begged, please, because he's desperate.

  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Ah, I forgot. Batman and Robin weren't actually the first Damian I read. It was his guest-starring moments in Scott Snyder's Batman.

    When they're preparing for the party and Tim helped tied his tie and they snark each other.
    When Batman went missing and Damian paired with Dick to interrogate criminals
    When the Bat Signal finally burned out and he demanded Commissioner Gordon to light a new one before finally begged, please, because he's desperate.
    I can't fault Synder. For someone who wasn't a fan he did give us some good Damian.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    Did Bruce reject Damian at start?

    I mean Bruce was clearly angry after Damian almost killed Tim and he didn't know how to deal with Damian, but it was external circumstances that kept them away.
    Yeah he sent him back to his mum. Actually he accepted him then rejected him after he tried to kill Tim and when Bruce discovered Damian was sent there to mess up his plans.

    Bruce is a contradiction with how easily he accepted Damian and even with Talia because this was when we were still working with the Damian is a rape baby origin.

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Yeah he sent him back to his mum. Actually he accepted him then rejected him after he tried to kill Tim and when Bruce discovered Damian was sent there to mess up his plans.

    Bruce is a contradiction with how easily he accepted Damian and even with Talia because this was when we were still working with the Damian is a rape baby origin.
    Maybe Bruce just can't resist taking in kids

    I always forget that after the introduction Bruce did allow Damian into his home, cave and life despite the circumstances.

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